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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Wait... what? What fights are you referring to, as being centered around stacking? Jin'rokh is only a brief stack, which requires popping healer CDs. Magaera is also only stacking for a minority of the time, during the fight. If you think Durumu is a stack fight, then you have to recognize that the maze is a moving stack fight, which nerfs many healers' normal big heal CDs. Primordius is only damage-intensive at the end of the fight, so it's a moot point, imo. Those 4 fights, out of 13 are the only ones I can think of with anything remotely close to stack mechanics, and that's only for brief periods of time. So, I'm calling shenanigans on your "fact" of 30%.

    I said "somewhat heavily centered", I didn't mean 100% like Ra-den.

    In my mind this covers

    Jinrok
    Council - (Stacked for the life tear add shit + 50% of the time on Khaz overcharge, aswell as the rest of the time after sul dies)
    Megaera - (80% of the healing is done during the AOE phase)
    Primo - (to a lesser extent)
    Iron qon - (again to a lesser extent but considering the huge amount of damage melee takes early as they get 9+ stacks as well as the final phase)
    Twins - (Nuclear Explosions)
    Ra-den

    4/13 with Heavy stacking elements
    3/13 with lighter stacking elements - ( but healing in these points is arguably the hardest during the entire encounter, so its valued)

    But hey that's just my view!

  2. #22
    Enhancement has a retarded amount of keys. It comes natural that lots of effort yields big reward.

  3. #23
    Its pretty funny when DPS call you OP as well. My guildies have been calling me OP because Im a good 10-20k ahead of them on some fights

    Problem is, there is no excuse why they cannot catch me. They play classes that on paper are ahead of Enhance, theyve got ilvls on me. But its always easier to say something is OP than to look at why.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Day Dreamer View Post
    Enhancement has a retarded amount of keys. It comes natural that lots of effort yields big reward.
    Difficulty of spec doesn't tie into results, let me just remind you of Cata Arcane Mage.

    P.S. I only have 5 (if that) more keybinds as Enh compared to Ele.

  5. #25
    To bad enhancement is like playing a piano and their AOE is the most messy and booring one in the game imo, there's are reason why there's like 0 enhancement shamans

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    To bad enhancement is like playing a piano and their AOE is the most messy and booring one in the game imo, there's are reason why there's like 0 enhancement shamans
    I think the whole "sim it" phrase has daunted people for years. Sure, the spec is overwhelming at first, but when you break it down its not to bad. Its just once you get past the initial cooldown and rotation stuff and get into the guts of the spec and break down the stats, the lack of a clear cut answer scares people away.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    I think the whole "sim it" phrase has daunted people for years. Sure, the spec is overwhelming at first, but when you break it down its not to bad. Its just once you get past the initial cooldown and rotation stuff and get into the guts of the spec and break down the stats, the lack of a clear cut answer scares people away.
    The sim it phrase was a plague that even idiot bad shaman spammed in this forum back in Wrath. It put the community on the precipice of the worst in WoW, because people straight up refused to help, just spammed that phrase because people were so horrible.

    Enhancement isn't as hard as is perceived, but the result vs. effort until 5.3 just wasn't worth it so no reason to try it. Now we're OP, there's more and more and more I see around. Keybinds for actual DPS for enhancement isn't as high as people point out, we're fairly comparative to rogues and ferals, difference is we have loads of passive damage sources that show.
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  8. #28
    It's probably pretty likely that the Enhance healing thing will become a bigger issue next tier, especially if there are any fights at all like Ra-Den (or even say the last phase of Iron Qon). The Healing Rain DR cap going from 6 to 14 in 25 mans is effectively going to buff the spell by 233% on any fight where 14+ people would be in Healing Rain, including Enhance off healing. On top of that, with HTT baseline, Enhance is going to have both HTT and AG. Enhance offhealing has the potential to get really ridiculous next tier.

    I could easily see the 25 man HR change forcing them to nerf the baseline healing of HR and buff it back up for Resto through a Resto passive.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    It's probably pretty likely that the Enhance healing thing will become a bigger issue next tier, especially if there are any fights at all like Ra-Den (or even say the last phase of Iron Qon). The Healing Rain DR cap going from 6 to 14 in 25 mans is effectively going to buff the spell by 233% on any fight where 14+ people would be in Healing Rain, including Enhance off healing. On top of that, with HTT baseline, Enhance is going to have both HTT and AG. Enhance offhealing has the potential to get really ridiculous next tier.

    I could easily see the 25 man HR change forcing them to nerf the baseline healing of HR and buff it back up for Resto through a Resto passive.
    They could easily nerf it by nerfing the healing storm glyph... although i dont feel our heal is much stronger than shadow priests if people were not stacked or with a relatively short stack phases. we also had to delay/save 5 stack for heavy damage where we want a stronger heal, without the 4pc bonus, the charges will stack up a bit slower next tier (although probably not quite significant with the amount of haste we have).

  10. #30
    I fully expect to see our healing output nerfed next patch and to be honest, I really dont mind.

    Im getting to the point where im EXPECTED to be cutting my DPS to heal and I think it should be a situation where ok the healers are out of position or theres a huge damage phase coming up, ill sacrifice 2 MW*5 to help out, not...ok keep HR on melee during the entirety of this phase kthnx.

    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    The sim it phrase was a plague that even idiot bad shaman spammed in this forum back in Wrath. It put the community on the precipice of the worst in WoW, because people straight up refused to help, just spammed that phrase because people were so horrible.
    Yeah, I cringe everytime I hear the phrase sim it and it still exists and Ive been guilty of saying it myself on occasions (although I try offer advice with it) and I hate not being able to say to someone, yes - go haste or no - stick with mastery. I think thats daunting for players on the cusp of serious raiding. Hell it confused the hell out of me back in WotLK and took me a long time before I wanted to even try SimC.
    Last edited by Murderdoll; 2013-07-15 at 02:51 AM.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    I fully expect to see our healing output nerfed next patch and to be honest, I really dont mind.
    Wouldnt surprise me if the Healing storm's glyph bonus healing was halved.
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    I'm so sorry ;_;

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerfield View Post
    I said "somewhat heavily centered", I didn't mean 100% like Ra-den.

    In my mind this covers

    Jinrok
    Council - (Stacked for the life tear add shit + 50% of the time on Khaz overcharge, aswell as the rest of the time after sul dies)
    Megaera - (80% of the healing is done during the AOE phase)
    Primo - (to a lesser extent)
    Iron qon - (again to a lesser extent but considering the huge amount of damage melee takes early as they get 9+ stacks as well as the final phase)
    Twins - (Nuclear Explosions)
    Ra-den

    4/13 with Heavy stacking elements
    3/13 with lighter stacking elements - ( but healing in these points is arguably the hardest during the entire encounter, so its valued)

    But hey that's just my view!
    Except it was pointless to heal on these fight except megarea, where shadow priests/elemental shamans also do decent amount of heals (talking about 25man, never done 10man). I might do a 5 stack HR a few times during the fight but thats it. In most cases, during progression, dps would be more valued than our offheal. Look at it this way, to maintain a HR fully I have to approximately give up 1 free lightning bolt which hits for somewhere between 50-150k every 2-3 of these free lightning bolts, where they generally account for 5-7% of our total damage. When you disregard our fire elemental totem (which does around 30% of our total dps), the lightning bolt % will increase. I do believe our dps will be less dependent on the elementals in 5.4. Say if we choose to use UF instead of PE, lb will be a significant amount of our damage. When I want to put down healing stream totem as well, it would cost me 1 gcd/30s (minor)

    Megeara this week: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=4476&e=4859

    As you can see the spriests are doing similar, while both tanks beats us (absorbs). I dont see how enh needed to be singled out as being "OP"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Corixa View Post
    Except it was pointless to heal on these fight except megarea, where shadow priests/elemental shamans also do decent amount of heals (talking about 25man, never done 10man). I might do a 5 stack HR a few times during the fight but thats it. In most cases, during progression, dps would be more valued than our offheal. Look at it this way, to maintain a HR fully I have to approximately give up 1 free lightning bolt which hits for somewhere between 50-150k every 2-3 of these free lightning bolts, where they generally account for 5-7% of our total damage. When you disregard our fire elemental totem (which does around 30% of our total dps), the lightning bolt % will increase. I do believe our dps will be less dependent on the elementals in 5.4. Say if we choose to use UF instead of PE, lb will be a significant amount of our damage. When I want to put down healing stream totem as well, it would cost me 1 gcd/30s (minor)

    Megeara this week: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=4476&e=4859

    As you can see the spriests are doing similar, while both tanks beats us (absorbs). I dont see how enh needed to be singled out as being "OP"
    As I said its just my opinion about where aoe healing could be taken advantage. Not playing enh myself your obviously going to know whether it is worth it in those situations much better than I would! As for being OP I guess I had just never seen a dps manage to completely out heal another healer, but as stated raden is a ridiculously perfect set up for off healing as enh.

  14. #34
    Dropping HR and popping AG during stack phases is no different really to other melee dropping smoke bombs, banner, AMZ etc. as part of the cd rotations (which ofc we don't have). Plus the usage of HR/AG is situational anyway, spot heals on the tank aren't called for very often (ie. heavy tank damage phases etc.) and it doesn't affect pvp at all (something that Blizz actually got right for once with the off-healing nerfs there only affecting pvp and not pve) so I don't think we need a nerf at all.

  15. #35
    I think the biggest problem is that it doesn't make very much sense for Enhance HR to heal for more than Resto HR.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I think the biggest problem is that it doesn't make very much sense for Enhance HR to heal for more than Resto HR.
    OoC, are you basing this on anything more than just the OP's log?

    I'm looking at the OP's log (also, I'm guessing that Roks = Dangerfield? - dammit, man, forum sig!!!: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...=12197&e=12584

    I see that Corixa's HR did more total healing than Roks' did. It looks like Roks cast at least twice the number of HRs that Corixa did. And, I notice that Roks had more over-healing (with HR). I also notice that HR alone isn't what pushed Corixa's total healing over the last fistweaver in the raid; AG had a significant role, as well. Lastly, I notice that Corixa has 15% more spell haste than Roks does. And, if we get the same spell crit as we do melee crit, then Corixa has more of that, as well.

    I'm not ready to draw conclusions yet, but I'll make the following suppositions:

    - The glyph of healing storm is doubling HR's effectiveness, for enhancement.
    - Enhancement's greater inherent haste levels are making HR tick more quickly for enhancement, producing more (effective) healing.
    - The ability to instantly cast a HR (with planning), with a 5x MSW stack, gives enhancement a strategic advantage, as to when to place HR (i.e., response-healing, versus anticipatory healing).
    - The above, combined with higher spell haste (and crit?) lends to enhancement yielding more effective healing from HR, versus a resto shaman's HR getting sniped and then going into over-healing.
    - Resto's mastery is largely ineffective, in relation to other healers' mechanics, resulting in HR healing for less than it should, relative to enhancement's HR.
    - This comparison of enhancement HR, versus resto HR, is being made of one of the top enhancement players, and will skew the average, of what most enhancement shaman actually do, with HR and AG.

    So, Tibbee, if your conclusion is coming from top-end logs, then I can agree that HR looks overpowered. But, on the average, I don't think enhancement shaman are consistently out-healing healer specs. Also, in order for Corixa to pull this off, it took a very specific set of events.

    If anything, it's either the glyph of healing storm that's OP, or it's resto's failboat mastery mechanic that's a glaring failure. For now, I'm going with the latter.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    OoC, are you basing this on anything more than just the OP's log?

    I'm looking at the OP's log (also, I'm guessing that Roks = Dangerfield? - dammit, man, forum sig!!!: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...=12197&e=12584

    I see that Corixa's HR did more total healing than Roks' did. It looks like Roks cast at least twice the number of HRs that Corixa did. And, I notice that Roks had more over-healing (with HR). I also notice that HR alone isn't what pushed Corixa's total healing over the last fistweaver in the raid; AG had a significant role, as well. Lastly, I notice that Corixa has 15% more spell haste than Roks does. And, if we get the same spell crit as we do melee crit, then Corixa has more of that, as well.

    I'm not ready to draw conclusions yet, but I'll make the following suppositions:

    - The glyph of healing storm is doubling HR's effectiveness, for enhancement.
    - Enhancement's greater inherent haste levels are making HR tick more quickly for enhancement, producing more (effective) healing.
    - The ability to instantly cast a HR (with planning), with a 5x MSW stack, gives enhancement a strategic advantage, as to when to place HR (i.e., response-healing, versus anticipatory healing).
    - The above, combined with higher spell haste (and crit?) lends to enhancement yielding more effective healing from HR, versus a resto shaman's HR getting sniped and then going into over-healing.
    - Resto's mastery is largely ineffective, in relation to other healers' mechanics, resulting in HR healing for less than it should, relative to enhancement's HR.
    - This comparison of enhancement HR, versus resto HR, is being made of one of the top enhancement players, and will skew the average, of what most enhancement shaman actually do, with HR and AG.

    So, Tibbee, if your conclusion is coming from top-end logs, then I can agree that HR looks overpowered. But, on the average, I don't think enhancement shaman are consistently out-healing healer specs. Also, in order for Corixa to pull this off, it took a very specific set of events.

    If anything, it's either the glyph of healing storm that's OP, or it's resto's failboat mastery mechanic that's a glaring failure. For now, I'm going with the latter.
    No, I am also basing this off my own logs. For example, here is healing in P2 of this week's Ra-Den kill.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=585&e=718

    Our enhancement Shaman's Healing Rain did 16.5 million healing, and my Healing Rain did 12.4 million healing. I think it is problematic for a DPS spec to get ~35% more healing from a core raid healing ability (regardless of what glyphs and Maelstrom procs, etc) than a healing spec. He actually also outhealed one of our Holy Pallies.

    Obviously, Ra-Den is a special case, but I think that at minimum - Healing Rain - even with the Healing Storm glyph and MWx5, needs to not outperform Resto Healing Rain.

  18. #38
    On average Im about 1/3 to 1/2 of my healers total HPS on fights where I feel I should be dropping HR's (Qon, Ji Kun, Magera etc). Outside of Ra-Den you probably wont see those numbers or anything close to them.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    On average Im about 1/3 to 1/2 of my healers total HPS on fights where I feel I should be dropping HR's (Qon, Ji Kun, Magera etc). Outside of Ra-Den you probably wont see those numbers or anything close to them.
    Lei Shen you'll see enhancement do really beefy healing i the last phase, sometimes to the tune of a full healer extra. I know I personally was doing upwards of 120k HPS in the last phase on our first kill. Next patch it's going to be even better with glyph of chaining + chain heal improvements and HTT, looking forward to it.
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  20. #40
    I'm not sure why people are trying to say this isn't OP. It's honestly almost as funny as Mages having a thread on their forums to discuss their lack of raid utility. (Seriously, how about all 3 specs being in the top 5 DPS is your utility?) Having 100k+ HPS sustained for an entire fight is not even close to the same as an 8s damage reduction CD that can be added to the CD rotation to help control damage from specific devastating abilities.

    I understand you don't want to get nerfed into the ground, but when you can entirely replace a healer and still do second to top DPS, there's a problem. Sure, it's one encounter, or rather, one set of specific elements that combine to make this an issue, but it's still an issue, and it needs to be addressed.

    I don't think Enh healing should get a straight out nerf, per se, like just a flat adjustment to Healing Storm or whatever, but something definitely needs to be tweaked. Maybe have Healing Storm add 20% per stack to single target heals and 5% per stack to AoE heals (or even just Healing Rain). Also, adding the 14 target buff (in 25 mans) to Healing Rain through Purification instead of as a base addition to Healing Rain might be a good idea as well. Both of those changes would be a huge nerf to Enh Healing Rain healing specifically, but adding HTT to your already immense healing kit makes up for that.

    Either way, I wouldn't try to argue that it isn't OP, because no one's going to believe you. I would instead try to figure out how to fix the situations where it is very obviously OP without nerfing one of the truly interesting and engaging parts of your spec into the ground as a byproduct.
    Last edited by Rarch; 2013-07-16 at 05:47 AM.

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