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  1. #21
    It's correct that you needed eight tanks which was pretty much impossible for many guilds... imagine a 25man Boss nowadays that needs 6 Tanks which alone would be a problem even with dual specs and 5 classes being able to tank. Only WARRIORS were viable tanks back then!

    The fight as such wasn't so terribly complicated... once you figured out after what debuff-stacks you need to rotate you just had to not fail.

    Kel'thuzad was definately harder except for the said fact that you needed eight warrior-tanks. He had sooo many deadly mechanics for a classic-wow encounter while needing massive amounts of DPS and HPS.

    Hard to say which was the hardest encounter AT THEIR TIME because Naxx 40 was open just for a quite small amount of time and many guilds couldn't even try the bosses.

  2. #22
    4 Horsemen was only hard logistically. If you could manage to have 8 tanks with decent gear it wasn't hard at all. I lucked out in a guild that had just that. It didn't take long at all to down from there.

  3. #23
    My vote would go towards Heroic Ragnaros. If I recall correctly it took the world first guilds 500+ attempts to get it down. A close second would probably be Yogg 0. Coming in at third I would vote for 25 H LK.

  4. #24
    Heroic Rag personally. 500+ attempts, and that was from the TOP guilds in the world? Ya that's got to be the hardest encounter in the game that was feasible to beat.

    I like 4 horsemen, but.. Meh, having 40 people do anything for a long time and do it perfectly is harder than the mechanics of a fight like Ragnaros.

    Aveline's amazing work!

  5. #25
    I wonder if all the people saying 4 horsemen just required 8 tanks actually did the fight.

    There were a lot of things you couldn't mess up that could quickly lead to a wipe. Not saying it's the hardest fight ever like OP is saying but you guys are really understating the difficulty.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Valiea View Post
    Heroic Rag personally. 500+ attempts, and that was from the TOP guilds in the world? Ya that's got to be the hardest encounter in the game that was feasible to beat.

    I like 4 horsemen, but.. Meh, having 40 people do anything for a long time and do it perfectly is harder than the mechanics of a fight like Ragnaros.
    If I am not mistaken the first kill on Yogg'saron 0-lights was done by STARS after 1000+ tries. Might be remembering wrong though.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I wonder if all the people saying 4 horsemen just required 8 tanks actually did the fight.

    There were a lot of things you couldn't mess up that could quickly lead to a wipe. Not saying it's the hardest fight ever like OP is saying but you guys are really understating the difficulty.
    Each Horseman had one ability plus the marks. Not a whole lot there. It was a constant ebb and flow of people.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    If I am not mistaken the first kill on Yogg'saron 0-lights was done by STARS after 1000+ tries. Might be remembering wrong though.
    Ragnaros was definitely the harder of the two fights to figure out IMO. I'm guessing the top guilds had to experiment a lot to find out what worked for molten seeds and of course, the final phase with the breadth of frost. Yogg 0 however was probably the harder fight numbers wise. A lot of people at the time deemed the fight impossible to kill due to numerous factors. I don't think a lot of people killed it before the nerfs too that made it only 3 beacons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    Each Horseman had one ability plus the marks. Not a whole lot there. It was a constant ebb and flow of people.
    Number of abilities =/ difficulty. When your toolkit is way smaller than what it is now as a player, the fights are tough to handle because of it.

    Coordinating 40 people to handle the 60? yard marks and the abilities of zeliek and thane were tough for a 40 man raid. Tank death? I don't know how many times that happened to us - that led straight to a wipe most of the time because the guy would beeline straight to the safe zone and reset all the marks, leading to messed up rotations. Taunt resist? There were all sorts of crap that could go wrong there.

    I was the healer assigned to solo heal the tank at the start on lady too and when a void zone ticks for half of your health as soon as it spawned and you had no instants at the time as a healer besides renew since I played a priest (unlike now) it was a fine balancing act, all while trying to keep the tank and yourself up alone, with constant mark damage.

    There's a reason not many people finished Naxx. I think a lot of people forget what it was like playing in vanilla, you don't have the freedom to do all the superman shit you can do today with cooldowns and movement etc.
    Last edited by Dawnrage; 2013-07-12 at 09:55 PM.

  9. #29
    I believe M'uru was the hardest boss? didnt it take 3 months to down him? Yogg 0 light was pretty hardcore, people had to use obscure strategies to down it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    You needed 8 tanks with the 4 piece bonus which gave a bonus to your taunt not being resisted. This was critical because one missed taunt equaled a wipe. It was also a poachfest for tanks.
    no you didnt needed 8 tanks with 4 piece bonus .. stop spreading this fairytale

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    I believe M'uru was the hardest boss? didnt it take 3 months to down him? Yogg 0 light was pretty hardcore, people had to use obscure strategies to down it.
    3 months? More like 12 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I wonder if all the people saying 4 horsemen just required 8 tanks actually did the fight.

    There were a lot of things you couldn't mess up that could quickly lead to a wipe. Not saying it's the hardest fight ever like OP is saying but you guys are really understating the difficulty.
    This. Most of these people have never done the fight, you didn't NEED 8 tanks with 4set, you could get backup tanks with the old ZG hit trinket etc, the boss had a steep dps requirement since you couldn't just dps forever and had to wait for stacks to drop off, bosses also used shield wall at certain % of health for around 30(?) seconds which made it even steeper. (Boss had a 20min enrage, at which point the horsemen spammed their main ability and marks every second). Invisible Void Zones could kill unaware people, Marks lasted A LOT longer (think it was 80 seconds iirc). And, finally when you killed a horseman they stay as a ghost where they die and continue putting out marks, meleeing etc.

    Fight was nowhere near the hardest they've ever made though, by todays standards it probably wouldn't last half a day if it was tuned up.

    Hardest boss imo? Lei Shen on 25hc, Rag on 25hc, Prenerf Firefighter and prenerf yogg+0.
    Last edited by Dreadwraith; 2013-07-12 at 10:10 PM.

  12. #32
    i felt like loatheb was more complicated than horseman, but i was a healer at the time.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    no you didnt needed 8 tanks with 4 piece bonus .. stop spreading this fairytale
    didn't need it, it did make it a lot easier and consistent though,.

    A lot of tanks used the nat pagle trinket or whatever that gave a bunch of spell hit.

  14. #34
    All the late bosses of Naxx 40 were a colossal logistical problem, but the actual mechanics of the bosses were not hard compared to today's standards. It's just that they always required almost perfect execution (which is a lot harder with 40 people), the best gear currently available, and a TON of consumables.

    I was lucky enough to clear Naxx40 back in vanilla, and i clearly remember the vast amounts of time it required to get our off-tanks enough gear for the 4 horsemen, and the insane amounts of gold we spent in buying the mats to craft frost resist gear for Sapphiron. Kel'Thuzad was another huge gear check, enough that we had to get EVERY single buff in the game to actually beat it, while spending countless gold/time in consumables (those damn frost potions dude...).

    This is what my bags looked like back then, just for the average raid day.

    http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3756/2q3k.jpg
    We are competing to win, and if you no longer go for a gap, you're no longer a gamer.

  15. #35

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i felt like loatheb was more complicated than horseman, but i was a healer at the time.
    Loetheb was a harder dps requirement. Most guilds would group up for the dragonslayer buff and get every possible buff in the game to try and meet the requirements for it. But, as far as healers go it was just going in the correct order to heal the tank and not mess up. Our guild just had the healers macro a whisper to the next healer down the line to tell them it was their fault and if they could pay attention to chat it was easy. Figuring out the potion rotation for the raid was probably harder and making sure you followed it correctly was a pain sometimes.

    Bosses just don't last anymore. Even bosses like heroic rag and muru and all the other linked super bosses just didn't take that long to down. There were no dungeon journals or people data mining boss info or whatever. DBM is updated with every boss ability the day the new dungeon comes out but back then top progression guilds actually had to make their own mods since other mods weren't out yet during their progression. I just remember how long it took for bosses like 4 horsemen to be killed and KT hell even BT bosses took longer to kill than any boss since wrath came out. Plus compared to TBC and onward after the major revamps to talents/skills vanilla wow would be like fighting a modern boss with sticks and rocks and mages trying light it on fire with a bic lighter. Mana regen was crap. Mana pools were crap. Heals were spamming a low level spell because anything else would oom you in a few seconds. Also don't forget that back then there were still limits on DoTs AND HoTs. DoTs would get kicked off the boss all the time lowering peoples dps, players could only have 1 HoT of that type at a time so only one rejuv/renew at a time could be up ticking on a boss. Tanks had 2 cool downs with shield wall and last stand and that was it. There were no raid cool downs to coordinate, there was no heroism to burst through a hard part of a fight. Classes didn't really have "oh shit buttons". Even movement was slower back then. Warriors had intercept which cost rage because you couldn't use charge in combat. Hunters didn't have disengage and aspect of the cheetah would daze you with the constant aoe damage. Sprint was a 2 minute cooldown. All the abilities people have now to get out of crap just weren't around. There was no raid utility. Outside of blessing of wisdom there weren't cooldowns like mana tide or mana hymn.

    Sure there might not be as many mechanics but there were less ways to deal with the ones that were there at the time. Hell even just coming up with the strat to kill the boss was what took the longest to do. Everything was new back then. There weren't rehashed mechanics yet that we've seen 20 times before (except for dragon mechanics which still work the same today) and know how to deal with because they game was so new.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Loetheb was a harder dps requirement. Most guilds would group up for the dragonslayer buff and get every possible buff in the game to try and meet the requirements for it. But, as far as healers go it was just going in the correct order to heal the tank and not mess up. Our guild just had the healers macro a whisper to the next healer down the line to tell them it was their fault and if they could pay attention to chat it was easy. Figuring out the potion rotation for the raid was probably harder and making sure you followed it correctly was a pain sometimes.

    Bosses just don't last anymore. Even bosses like heroic rag and muru and all the other linked super bosses just didn't take that long to down. There were no dungeon journals or people data mining boss info or whatever. DBM is updated with every boss ability the day the new dungeon comes out but back then top progression guilds actually had to make their own mods since other mods weren't out yet during their progression. I just remember how long it took for bosses like 4 horsemen to be killed and KT hell even BT bosses took longer to kill than any boss since wrath came out. Plus compared to TBC and onward after the major revamps to talents/skills vanilla wow would be like fighting a modern boss with sticks and rocks and mages trying light it on fire with a bic lighter. Mana regen was crap. Mana pools were crap. Heals were spamming a low level spell because anything else would oom you in a few seconds. Also don't forget that back then there were still limits on DoTs AND HoTs. DoTs would get kicked off the boss all the time lowering peoples dps, players could only have 1 HoT of that type at a time so only one rejuv/renew at a time could be up ticking on a boss. Tanks had 2 cool downs with shield wall and last stand and that was it. There were no raid cool downs to coordinate, there was no heroism to burst through a hard part of a fight. Classes didn't really have "oh shit buttons". Even movement was slower back then. Warriors had intercept which cost rage because you couldn't use charge in combat. Hunters didn't have disengage and aspect of the cheetah would daze you with the constant aoe damage. Sprint was a 2 minute cooldown. All the abilities people have now to get out of crap just weren't around. There was no raid utility. Outside of blessing of wisdom there weren't cooldowns like mana tide or mana hymn.

    Sure there might not be as many mechanics but there were less ways to deal with the ones that were there at the time. Hell even just coming up with the strat to kill the boss was what took the longest to do. Everything was new back then. There weren't rehashed mechanics yet that we've seen 20 times before (except for dragon mechanics which still work the same today) and know how to deal with because they game was so new.
    Every boss but Illidan was killed the week it came out. Illidan not long after. Hyjal was cleared pretty quickly, as well. Bosses have never taken long for any top guild to kill because blizzard doesn't tune bosses to be impossible intentionally. It doesn't matter how different the game is back then to how it may be now. Bosses that take months to kill just don't happen outside of insane gearing requirements or outstanding bugs.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherfall View Post
    Every boss but Illidan was killed the week it came out. Illidan not long after. Hyjal was cleared pretty quickly, as well. Bosses have never taken long for any top guild to kill because blizzard doesn't tune bosses to be impossible intentionally. It doesn't matter how different the game is back then to how it may be now. Bosses that take months to kill just don't happen outside of insane gearing requirements or outstanding bugs.
    What the fuck are you talking about?
    #1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    #2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    #3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    #3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    #5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    #6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    #7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    #8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    #9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    #10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    #11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    #12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    #13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    #14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    #15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    #16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    #16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    #16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    #16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    #20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    #20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
    #22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's first pull. May 1st 2009
    #22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
    #22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007
    #25 Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Gurtogg's death. 2nd June 2007
    #26 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006
    #26 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008
    #26 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.
    #29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.
    #29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008

  19. #39
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    Note how nearly all of them involved outstanding bugs and/or gear checks, making them not exactly doable in their current forms. Not to mention all of tier 5 was released the day BC came out with its god awful itemization until later on in the expansion. Kill dates don't mean shit in terms of actual difficulty when you account that. Ragnaros was impossible. So was Onyxia in her original form. Ouro wasn't doable, neither was C'thun. Lady Vashj was killed through sheer luck. Chromaggus was bugged beyond hell with its breaths ignoring los. I think you get the idea. If you don't then I don't know what to tell you.

  20. #40

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