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  1. #121
    Original Naxx 4 Horsemen hardest encounter ever?
    tl;dr

    Absolutely not. What made the encounter hard was getting no less than 8 warriors in 4 piece Dreadnaught while everyone else in the raid bitches about the loot council. Everyone had a mind numbingly simple job. Rotate when your stack reaches 2.

  2. #122
    why has no one mentioned the stupidity of resist fights yet?
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    I don't raid mop-wise so I'm just gonna quote cata but could you explain how heroic morchok or ultraxion are harder than twins or c'thun ? Cause from where I stand they definitely have far easier mechanics
    You're comparing the two easiest heroic bosses in the last 5 tiers. Heroic rag vs twins or cthun? No debate. Twins really? Clearly you didn't raid back then, twins was the heroic ultrax of vanilla. It was not hard, people made it sound hard with all their whinging about having to run 50 yards every 60 seconds.
    As many others have said 4 Horseman was NOT hard. It was not even hard to find 8 tanks. Servers were alive back then, people knew who could kill it, or had a chance to. We never had any trouble filling in tanks when it was necessary. Getting 40 competent people online at once was the only hard part.

    Mechanics wise, there haven't been anything I would call "hard", nothing that the above average player couldn't do with pretty minimal effort, avoid stuff, stand in stuff, hit a keybind at a certain point etc. Finding competent people is the only truly hard boss in wow.
    Apply blizzards model to any other subscription service,you'd be outraged:
    Netflix adds no new movies for a year, you click a new movie, there's a $5 fee.
    You're in an accident, click your onstar button, but there's an addition $20 fee for them to help.
    You turn on your tv only to find all you get are the infomercial channels. Every other show is pay per view.
    See how dumb that model is?

  4. #124
    Stood in the Fire Sonridor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    Finnaly someone who gets it, it was the whole picture, not just 'lol have 8 tanks and gg'. People like Sorindor who claim that it was that easy while not even having played vanilla should really log a healer on a private realm and try to keep up a group, I bet they can't. Healers these days don't even know what real mana management is anymore. The fact that you went for 3/4 seconds without a heal doesn't mean healers didn't have shit to do, they were desperately trying to get a tick of mana while communicating with other healers so the tank wouldn't die in the meantime. Naxx being hard on the damage meant reverting to mp5 and chainpotting because you didn't have time for the 5second rule. (The only people that had time for it were the shitty 'spirit priests' , who healed for nothing but didn't have to chainpot, gz guys, gkick).
    Pretty sad that the manabar has basicly turned into an energy bar, making the healer-job so much easier.

    I admit I personally always was like, lol if we go back vanilla now, it will be SO easy. Well I did try a pvt realm to try healing again (and to be the pro again, "would be so easy !") and it hit me like a brick wall, you just cannot imagine the difficulty if you don't try it yourself. the things that you have to keep in mind, even casting 1 spell too many hurts.

    - - - Updated - - -


    And still the damn MC broke 1 second after :P
    Well I'm sorry if mana was too hard for mere mortals like me to manage at that time, but that's my opinion, haha... I have healer friends that raided in Vanilla and they share my view on it.

    Maybe things like these made some encounters hard due to it's length, but MOST of them were considered nearly impossible due to the "holy shit how do I play this game" aspect of it and the lack of skill from most of the raid! I understand what you said about it really being hard, but you have to agree that if people did their job, you probably shouldn't have to heal so much shit going on.

    The mana bar is "like an energy bar" these days because there is insane dmg going on in some encounters and it'd be nearly impossible to heal without that amount of regeneration. I can't say much because I haven't had time to raid that much this xpac (altought I'll start raiding tomorrow, finally), but it's easy to notice that in most heroic encounters. Even with the insane regen, you can see a ton of healers going Oom in encounters like Lei Shen, etc.

    In addition, i'd like to quote Dazzy here:

    Finding competent people is the only truly hard boss in wow.
    I mean, from what I know vanilla was hard mostly because of stupid people, so yeah!

  5. #125
    no, to make something like four horsemen now. simply break abilities, make them require set bonuses to work properly, then make it take so long to get those set bonuses that it makes the boss look hard.

    like lei shen heroic, make dks require ilvl 545 to use mass grip. require ilvl 545 to stun lightning balls, require ilvl 545 to be able to solo soak static shock with detterence/dispersion/iceblock/greater invis/bubble etc, bam now u got four horsemen an encounter based on getting enough gear so you can beat the mechanics which four horsemen was just having the damn tanks. with this idea you would require the whole raid geared! ooo even harder!.....or just a time sink farming loot?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    So much of this game has changed that people just don't know what it was like to play back then and the limitations people had. There were no smart heals where you push a button and you aoe heal the entire raid. If the raid took a massive damage pulse then you had healers single target healing the raid up with down ranked spells. Also who here even knows what the 5 second rule is? Is there any healer here who remembers having to coordinate with other healers to stagger your heals during patchwerk and that if heals happened at the same time instead of staggered the tank would usually die? No, everyone here just randomly clicks random people and spams heals with a 50-75% over heal rate and backed up by a crazy mana regen + cool downs. A lot of people use heroism now a days to get through the hard part of a fight. They have raid healing cooldowns to rotate to mitigate burst damage. There was none of that. It was people being smart and avoiding damage or dying. It was dps having to leave the boss to go bandage themselves to save healer mana. People who didn't pay attention tended to be dead people. Standing in the fire usually meant you died not stood in there for 5 seconds and let your massive HP pool drain a bit and then get out. Anyone who raided in naxx40 and says that it was easy back then is either delusional or lying about the fact that they were there... and trying to compare naxx 40 with naxx 25 and thinking you know whats up is like buying a calculator and saying you have gaming PC.
    I used to raid as a holy pally (the only viable raiding spec for a pally back then) through all of vanilla (was on the top alliance guild on our server). Paladins had 3 heals: Holy light 2.5sec cast time, Flash of light 1.5sec cast time and Holy Shock instant cast. If I remember well, the only cooldown I had was divine favor (100% crit on your next spell). That was the only tools given to heal. I remember being assigned to cast holy of light on the tank on patchwerk, my role being mainly to have my heal come instantly after he would take the strike that would kill the tank if he took an auto-attack right after it. Back then, mana was a REAL ressource that you had manage extremely carefully. Mana would come from Mp5 (mana regen per 5 sec, the only mana regen that worked during fights) and from the use of dark runes / mana pots / etc.

    Paladins also had to MANUALLY buff the 40 people and the blessing only lasted 5 mins. By the time you were done buffing everyone, the first people already had 1 min less on their buff, and you didn't pull yet. We also had to bring a ret pally (that healed, because ret dmg was inexistant) because blessing of kings was a last tier ret tree talent.

    That's the kind of shit we had to put up with. Today, the holy paladins as like 6-7 heals and it's incredibly boring to play because there are no real challenge.

  7. #127
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerfield View Post
    People saying that this is a hard fight.... (Sapph)

    - Druid dies to icebomb because he is staring up looking at the boss and is late to the ONE mechanic that can insta gib you

    - First use of innervate at 4 minutes (could of been used effectively at around 1 minute)

    - Clicks most abilities/Cd's

    - So much backpedaling

    - Stands next to Ice rain then dies as it moves over him


    The worst player in my guild is still 10 times better than this guy. So if this is the general level of skill which players in the few "good" guilds that manage to reach the end of naxx, then yes, I can imagine these fights would of been seriously difficult with that group of people. But don't kid yourselfs that any of these fights where actually difficult, players where just terrible as a whole compared to today's raiding scene.
    Moonstruck was a pretty decent druid from what I can remember... But then it was years ago so *shrug* As far as I know I survived both of the encounters in the videos but it's pretty difficult to tell when you're looking for a yellow name that starts with "V" on 480p content.

    Players weren't "terrible" by any means - you're looking at it from today's perspective where we have such simple things as ilvls, theorycrafting and leather gear that doesn't randomly have strength on, hell my "simming" in Vanilla consisted of putting stats into a spreadsheet. The game was different back then. Sure it was a good year and a half from release to Naxx40 but WoW was still in its infancy and it's damn easy to look at something with 8 years worth of experience and say "hah, these guys sucked" when, in reality we were pretty good at that point. It's similar to me saying "bloody hell, how did people live without colour television?!"... Not to mention most people during the sapph kill were lucky to get over 10FPS.

    We've all grown as players and that's why encounters have become more and more complex but AT THE TIME these encounters were new and difficult. In 5 years time others might be looking at videos of your kills and scoffing at the level of skill on display.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-07-16 at 02:21 AM.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonridor View Post
    I never raided in Classic [...]
    TL;DR: Some fights in Vanilla were hard at that time due to being a new game. If those fights were presented today - scaled -, they'd probably be easy (and vice-versa @Ra-den example).
    There is a problem in your post.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzy View Post
    You're comparing the two easiest heroic bosses in the last 5 tiers. Heroic rag vs twins or cthun? No debate. Twins really? Clearly you didn't raid back then, twins was the heroic ultrax of vanilla. It was not hard, people made it sound hard with all their whinging about having to run 50 yards every 60 seconds.
    As many others have said 4 Horseman was NOT hard. It was not even hard to find 8 tanks. Servers were alive back then, people knew who could kill it, or had a chance to. We never had any trouble filling in tanks when it was necessary. Getting 40 competent people online at once was the only hard part.

    Mechanics wise, there haven't been anything I would call "hard", nothing that the above average player couldn't do with pretty minimal effort, avoid stuff, stand in stuff, hit a keybind at a certain point etc. Finding competent people is the only truly hard boss in wow.
    Twins were so hard that even 70s pugs were wiping on them. Don't say stupid things like "if everyone does his job the boss is easy" cause it's true for like 100% of the bosses in the history of wow except super rng or super ungeared.
    Last edited by kamran; 2013-07-16 at 07:04 AM.

  9. #129
    Stood in the Fire Sonridor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    There is a problem in your post.
    I'm not the only one that thinks that way, man. I may have not experienced it, but everyone I know that raided Vanilla says the exact same thing...

    My point is that the raids were hard due to the lack of having 40 GOOD players doing their exact job. Today top-end guilds have convicted and skilled players, that most guilds at that time didn't! Besides that, some mechanics (fight and class) were unknwon to most players.

    So please, instead of pressing the same button ("You didn't raid, you don't know how it was"), prove what I'm saying (and MANY other people are saying as well) wrong.

    Plus, many people that play today and claim to have raided were children at the time (e.g Hobbs) so I don't think they should really have a vote on that. lol

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonridor View Post
    I'm not the only one that thinks that way, man. I may have not experienced it, but everyone I know that raided Vanilla says the exact same thing...

    My point is that the raids were hard due to the lack of having 40 GOOD players doing their exact job. Today top-end guilds have convicted and skilled players, that most guilds at that time didn't! Besides that, some mechanics (fight and class) were unknwon to most players.

    So please, instead of pressing the same button ("You didn't raid, you don't know how it was"), prove what I'm saying (and MANY other people are saying as well) wrong.

    Plus, many people that play today and claim to have raided were children at the time (e.g Hobbs) so I don't think they should really have a vote on that. lol
    Fact is you didn't raid vanilla so you have absolutely no idea how it was like. So : you don't have anything to say.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzy View Post
    You're comparing the two easiest heroic bosses in the last 5 tiers. Heroic rag vs twins or cthun? No debate. Twins really? Clearly you didn't raid back then, twins was the heroic ultrax of vanilla. It was not hard, people made it sound hard with all their whinging about having to run 50 yards every 60 seconds.
    As many others have said 4 Horseman was NOT hard. It was not even hard to find 8 tanks. Servers were alive back then, people knew who could kill it, or had a chance to. We never had any trouble filling in tanks when it was necessary. Getting 40 competent people online at once was the only hard part.

    Mechanics wise, there haven't been anything I would call "hard", nothing that the above average player couldn't do with pretty minimal effort, avoid stuff, stand in stuff, hit a keybind at a certain point etc. Finding competent people is the only truly hard boss in wow.
    Finding 8 Tanks with tier-gear was easy, way to go champ its obvious let alone not playing back then, you know nothing of the dreaded Logisticscraft that was WoW back then.

  12. #132
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    Yeah now that I reread his post I think he didn't raid back then neither

  13. #133
    I don't even know why people bother comparing vanilla wow to wow today? They are two different animals. KT was harder than 4 horseman.

  14. #134
    It was not the hardest fight.. I have to admit we did have 8 tanks and got lucky with taunts I guess...
    Going to McDonalds for a salad is like going to a brothel for a hug.

  15. #135
    High Overlord RAELAF's Avatar
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    i dont agree about KT beeing hard, he fell over the same night as sapphiron and yes im talking about 40 man naxx

  16. #136
    Either the encounter was biggest artificial gating ever, or the biggest design fuck-up in WoW.

    All other raid bosses from the start of MC all the way to Lei Shen requires 2-3 tank geared main tanks at most. On some encounters you needed to offtank, kite or CC few other mobs with dps classes but 4HM actually required 6 tanks minimum, 8 to make it easy. No guilds had those extra tanks sitting on bench so they had to go poach or reroll. Strategy is something all top guilds figured out in one afternoon.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    The hardest part of the fight was having FORTY people all do their job for like 10 minutes.

    Don't get confused.
    10? our first kill with half the raid dead took a solid 25 minutes. there was a 20? minutes enrage, but that was a rather soft one. tanks didn't need much gear either, dunno why people are making that up. tank damage was extremely light.

    we used 6 tanks though, due to availability and the most annoying part was to farm the hydra fishing boss in zul'gurub to get nat pagles broken reel (http://www.wowhead.com/item=19947 ) for all of them. the trinket had no status but a use: +spell hit . back then taunt used spell hit and with 6 tanks it was absolutely crucial that if the first taunt missed the next one hit. otherwise you were fucked and the rotation broke. so they had to use the spell hit cooldown on the 2nd taunt if the first missed.
    the biggest problem were the invisible void zones blumeaux spawned. healers loved dieing there, but in general the mechanics weren't exactly complicated.

    toughest non-bugged bosses should be original vashj, which only one guild managed to kill properly if I remember that right, before it was massively nerfed. and original al'ar. most kills on the fire bird included 15+ people being soulstoned by warlocks outside the instance.
    pre-nerf mimiron hard mode was also painful and I don't think there were more then 50 kills on that while it was left unchanged for quite a while.

  18. #138
    Stood in the Fire Sonridor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamran View Post
    Fact is you didn't raid vanilla so you have absolutely no idea how it was like. So : you don't have anything to say.
    Yeah, ok. I quit anyway. I'd love solid arguments, but since you keep referring to the same subject, I'll just stop discussing. I'd like facts about how vanilla mechanics were so much harder than Yogg 0 or any other encounter that is considered hard, not just elitism and bragging about raiding in Vanilla.

    Saying you raided in vanilla doesn't say anything about the fights being hard.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by kaib View Post
    toughest non-bugged bosses should be original vashj, which only one guild managed to kill properly if I remember that right, before it was massively nerfed. and original al'ar. most kills on the fire bird included 15+ people being soulstoned by warlocks outside the instance.
    pre-nerf mimiron hard mode was also painful and I don't think there were more then 50 kills on that while it was left unchanged for quite a while.
    Nothing that gets nerfed before 20 or so kills can be called as intended tuning, those are simply design mistakes. Also nobody killed original Vashj. Nihilum got it down and looted because the encounter bugged several times, but there was no 2nd kill by anybody before the encounter was fixed.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  20. #140
    nihilum bugged vashj, but I thought method had a legit kill and repeated it as well?

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