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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    I feel it's pretty fucked up to nerf a class instead of nerfing the trinket. Heh. If combustions are ridiculous they can tweak the numbers on the trinket. As is right now, they are probably too high.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I feel it's pretty fucked up to nerf a class instead of nerfing the trinket. Heh. If combustions are ridiculous they can tweak the numbers on the trinket. As is right now, they are probably too high.
    Fire's already getting a little out of hand with the numbers it's able to pull on live, leaving it as is when there's more gear and secondary stats to gain is a little ridiculous. It's because of the Combustion mechanic that Fire benefits so heavily from the trinket, it's the same reason Fire's so strong on any fight with damage amplification.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I feel it's pretty fucked up to nerf a class instead of nerfing the trinket. Heh. If combustions are ridiculous they can tweak the numbers on the trinket. As is right now, they are probably too high.
    Why is it fucked to nerf a class mechanic if it scales to heavily with a trinket proc, Combustion is just one of these abilities, tweaking the number is what you would do if it was mind blowingly retarded for everyone, but in the end its actually not (which i was quite surprised at), the ability to get 50 million + combusts on single target (thats 2.2 million dps a second) from one spell not even on the Gcd is the problem.

    Inb4 thinking im complaining about fire as a spec, im actually not the spec is overtuned atm, its because it scales with gear, but consider this, the spec is hugely ahead of its competitors in Bis gear this tier, you end up with better gear than this in full normal next tier so what you have to look at here is that even making combustion do 50% of current ignite damage the spec would actually still be competitive atm even though that nerf seems absoloutely monstrous.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-12 at 05:23 PM.

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  4. #24
    The Patient Mûe's Avatar
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    Tales of the past: "And they day came, when Blizzard once again struck down the Mage community with the mighty Nerfbat!"

    Ahh, Playing a fire mage... Nothing new here. In the End we will be NR.1 like always.

    back to topic: THese trinkets all look very interesting for different situatuion. Is there any news about the cooldown reduction trinket. Like: Waht abiletys, is it valuable?!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Why is it fucked to nerf a class mechanic if it scales to heavily with a trinket proc, Combustion is just one of these abilities, tweaking the number is what you would do if it was mind blowingly retarded for everyone, but in the end its actually not (which i was quite surprised at), the ability to get 50 million + combusts on single target (thats 2.2 million dps a second) from one spell not even on the Gcd is the problem.

    Inb4 thinking im complaining about fire as a spec, im actually not the spec is overtuned atm, its because it scales with gear, but consider this, the spec is hugely ahead of its competitors in Bis gear this tier, you end up with better gear than this in full normal next tier so what you have to look at here is that even making combustion do 50% of current ignite damage the spec would actually still be competitive atm even though that nerf seems absoloutely monstrous.
    So at this point what is the point of even getting new gear of we're going to keep getting scaled back every new raid tier? And just by skimming warlock forums, everyone is saying the amp scales really well with destro also. I'm pretty sure in your ideal world, you want warlocks to top meters while bringing the best utility to the raid but that's not going to happen bro. All the warlocks seem pretty happy about the trinkets you're the only one here envying how it scales so much better for us. And what blugatti said was right, UVLS made demo very OP, yet the spec wasn't nerfed so...

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  6. #26
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    We'll see what happens. For now, I think the trinket needs to be scalled back. Gives too much. It'll be a scenario where some DPS specs will need it to compete - and that's just stupid.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by fearist View Post
    So at this point what is the point of even getting new gear of we're going to keep getting scaled back every new raid tier? And just by skimming warlock forums, everyone is saying the amp scales really well with destro also. I'm pretty sure in your ideal world, you want warlocks to top meters while bringing the best utility to the raid but that's not going to happen bro. All the warlocks seem pretty happy about the trinkets you're the only one here envying how it scales so much better for us. And what blugatti said was right, UVLS made demo very OP, yet the spec wasn't nerfed so...

    Ill tackle these points 1 by 1

    - That scaling back thing is a HUGE problem, i personally would be pissed if that was effecting me, this is blizzards bad design.

    - Amp trinket for destro is disgustingly good, but it has limits, best case scenario you would get this to proc 15 seconds after its became available to line it with DS and 4 Chaos bolts + filler spamming, but there is a couple of things here, you are limited to the amount of globals you can use during the buff and second its not a garauntee that DS is going to be available when it procs, so the trinket is sick for destruction, but it is soooooooooo much better for fire for the reasons ive stated above (really 2.2 million dps from only hitting combustion for 20 seconds, this is discounting your actual Gcd use).

    - I dont believe any class should top the meters all the time, it should go down to encounter design but everyone should be within about 5% of each other on single target.

    - Warlocks Utility is no where near as strong in 5.4 as it was in 5.3 (this is a good thing i believe it should always be player > class)

    - I also dont play Demo because i refuse to play around a trinket proc like that, that is also getting changed for 5.4 (the glyph for certain)

    - Even with how strong that trinket is for demo it still doesnt let them compete with mages with the exception of extreme RNG or cheesing stuff like Dark animus by just putting doom on everything, and yes this is stupid and retarded but im not here to compare mages to warlocks, the topic of the post was about the trinkets for mages in 5.4.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    We'll see what happens. For now, I think the trinket needs to be scalled back. Gives too much. It'll be a scenario where some DPS specs will need it to compete - and that's just stupid.
    The actual design of this trinket is incredibly silly because the better your gear gets the more absurd it gets, consider that when the item level is scaled up you actually get more %, makes it even more insane. But the trinket actually maths out to be the equal of the 14% passive that the physical damage class's get so you cant really scale it back at all, the trinket design is just flawed because it sucks for some class's, Ele in particular and is godlike for others Fire and Destro in particular.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-07-12 at 07:31 PM.

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  8. #28
    There was some QQ posts on GC's Twitter about Fire and he replied that Fire looks fine Damage wise and that he doesn't see any reasons for any balances to be made. Of course the Frost crew started their QQ and he replied that every class has transitions, I added that with low Ilvl ppl play frost then once your crit is high enough you run Fire then if you want to mess around on some fights you roll arcane, with enough gear. It isn't rocket science, the problem is that people try to talk Frost up even though they see the WOl and know which is the better dps spec.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Let's try and stray from igniting (c wut I did thar) a Fire vs. frost DPS debate.

    In the end, I think the trinkets are interesting. I like the Amplification trinket for what it could do during combustions (even if it does look like it'll be a little silly). I do get a pretty good feeling when I see those big ignites rolling and I hit combustion .

    If the numbers when it goes live are ridiculous as some are saying (but tbh i'm not seeing much outside anecdotal evidence, and I haven't seen what other classes are doing), I'd be all for nerfing fire to keep it in line. It's one thing to be the strongest DPS, it's another to be so strong that you start to marginalize other classes and begin taking additional raid spots.

  10. #30
    atm Amplification Proc + Crit Proc are working very good together. so if it stays like that ill probably go with these two until ~25000 crit rating. after that i dont really know. maybe we should stop stacking crit and go for mastery instead then.

  11. #31
    In full BiS fire could stand for a bit of a nerf along with a few other specs (fire isn't alone up there) after looking over top 100 on raidbots of every 25H encounter atm. Thing is Blizzard would be rather stupid for that nerf because if you take a second and swap it to "all parses" suddenly fire isn't looking so hot. They'd be smacking the majority of the mage community with an unneeded nerf. If I were Blizzard I just wouldn't care that much about the top end mages, there just aren't that many of them, and I'd pay way more attention to the guys in the middle. If anything they should wait on the curve to actually catch up a bit before doing anything. The trinket is its own issue however and balancing a class around the assumption that they have a certain item is a bad practice.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Let's try and stray from igniting (c wut I did thar) a Fire vs. frost DPS debate.

    In the end, I think the trinkets are interesting. I like the Amplification trinket for what it could do during combustions (even if it does look like it'll be a little silly). I do get a pretty good feeling when I see those big ignites rolling and I hit combustion .

    If the numbers when it goes live are ridiculous as some are saying (but tbh i'm not seeing much outside anecdotal evidence, and I haven't seen what other classes are doing), I'd be all for nerfing fire to keep it in line. It's one thing to be the strongest DPS, it's another to be so strong that you start to marginalize other classes and begin taking additional raid spots.
    It always happens whether it is Fire or another strong class/spec. Look at progression, stack range and win which has been the norm for years and years. There is always a stronger spec for every class and Fire is the spec to be if you are serious about progression. Suprisingly some frost mages on MMO are more interested in their Ego than their numbers which is sad in itself.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    It always happens whether it is Fire or another strong class/spec. Look at progression, stack range and win which has been the norm for years and years. There is always a stronger spec for every class and Fire is the spec to be if you are serious about progression. Suprisingly some frost mages on MMO are more interested in their Ego than their numbers which is sad in itself.

    No single boss in the tier requires you to play a specific spec, especially this late. If you're top 10 world guild then sure it matters but Fire isn't the end all be all for mages. Nice try, but we're not buying what you're selling.

  14. #34
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    It always happens whether it is Fire or another strong class/spec. Look at progression, stack range and win which has been the norm for years and years. There is always a stronger spec for every class and Fire is the spec to be if you are serious about progression. Suprisingly some frost mages on MMO are more interested in their Ego than their numbers which is sad in itself.
    Why are you trying to start a Fire vs. other specs debate in a trinket discussion thread? Take your QQ elsewhere.

    OT:

    Has anyone bothered playing around with the cleave trinket? Proc chance just seems so low, even for a powerful proc. I can't remember what the proc chance was on Cunning of the Cruel back in Cata, but pretty sure that was higher than 1.6% for similar levels of damage, though admittedly the thought of being able to get a max-stack Arcane Barrage critting everything in range for 1.5M+ is quite enticing.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2013-07-13 at 01:07 AM.

  15. #35
    Aslong as fires not nerfed into the ground like it was last time. I have no issue

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by byZodi View Post
    Aslong as fires not nerfed into the ground like it was last time. I have no issue
    Trinket discussion. Take your fire antics elsewhere.

  17. #37
    Banned Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    Static Int + Amplification Proc

    • Equip: 1959 Intellect
    • Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant Amplification, increasing your Critical Strike damage and healing, Haste, and Mastery by 84% for 20 sec.
    It's 36%, not 84%.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    It's 36%, not 84%.
    The trinket's item level scales up the proc, its probably 36% at 463 item level, its 84% at 553 and ofc a lot higher at heroic (thunderforged -insert new name)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Why are you trying to start a Fire vs. other specs debate in a trinket discussion thread? Take your QQ elsewhere.

    OT:

    Has anyone bothered playing around with the cleave trinket? Proc chance just seems so low, even for a powerful proc. I can't remember what the proc chance was on Cunning of the Cruel back in Cata, but pretty sure that was higher than 1.6% for similar levels of damage, though admittedly the thought of being able to get a max-stack Arcane Barrage critting everything in range for 1.5M+ is quite enticing.
    Because the cleave trinket doesnt actually hit the original target (naturually) its completely useless for single target, for aoe (this is not from my own experience) most people math it out to being weak because of the proc.

    If you think like this, take Aoe like Durumu walls, Fire and Brimstone Destro warlock using Aoe from the boss onto walls (lets for lols say 40 walls, im aware it isint this much).

    Even saying this, for the trinket to proc at even say one every 3 casts (due to targets) and proc on the boss every single time you would only gain maybe 500k damage a cast, i mean its ok . . . but i think 1.62% is just far to low, it would need to be 5% imo.

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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Psp while your theories are correct (mostly) your maths is off for calculations.



    Runs off rating instead of %, so 6992 rating is 29.48% mastery (taken from this armory link), meaning it's 400 mastery per extra % of mastery (12% base).

    6992*1.84 = 12865
    12865/400 = 32.16% + 12 = 42.16% Mastery before raid buff is applied. Considering raid buffs mastery RATING, and Amp will be affected unless I'm seriously mistaken:
    (6992+3000)*1.84 = 18385
    18385/400 = 45.96+12 = 57.96% Mastery



    Taking the same armory example I've used above: 5081.
    5081+3750 (max stacks of new 2set - not unrealistic) = 8831.
    8831*1.84 = 16249.04, which is ~38% haste non-buffed. Raid haste alone puts this to 44.9%, whereupon Combustion is ticking 30 times, JUST missing out on 31 ticks.


    The main problem you're running into is you're calculating Ignite wrong. Combustion is based off the Ignite tick not the Ignite Bank (the total value of the Ignite you're holding).
    Considering Ignite ticks twice, the tick value is half of your numbers. I will continue to use Grondath's Armory values.



    • Pyroblast Crits for 300k
    • Mastery of 36.98%
    • Ignite bank is 36.98% of 300k = 110.94k
    • Ignite TICK is 110.94/2 = 55.47K
    • Combustion ticks for 27.73K with 24 ticks, total Combustion damage of 665.64K



    • Pyroblast Crits for 300k
    • Amplified Crit increases this to 426k
    • Mastery of 36.98%
    • Amplified increases this to 57.96%
    • Ignite bank = 57.96% of 426k = 246.91K
    • Ignite TICK = 246.91/2 = 123.45K
    • Combustion ticks for 61.73K with 30 total ticks, total Combustion damage of 1.851M

    Now, this is not to prove that the Amp trinket isn't strong - of course it is, however do try and hold onto your panties, please. It's not nearly as strong as you're making it out. It's still worrying for Fire, however.
    When I see a combustion ticking for well over 300k with this trinket, my panties fell right through the floor.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by fearist View Post
    And just by skimming warlock forums, everyone is saying the amp scales really well with destro also.
    I feel like any caster that has a mega-large hitting ability is going to die for this trinket. Chaos bolts in the 1.5 million range? Guaranteed destro will start playing for camping 4 embers and tracking the ICD of this trinket so they can unload 4 CB's in a row and stack as many embers as possible during the trinket duration.

    The 3 absolute hardest hitting abilities in the game in my opinion are combustion, chaos bolt, and execute. Fire mages and destro locks are going to go completely bonkers with this trinket, which looks to me like, when used correctly, will be the most overpowered trinket I have ever seen. We're talking easily in the multiple millions of dps for the duration of this trinket. I'm imagining a havoc'ed chaos bolt hitting 2 mobs each for 2 million damage, 500k-1milliion ticks of spread combustions, just some crazy numbers.

    Personally I just can't see a trinket like this making it to live as is. An 83% boost as the trinket states just seems way too high, and the testing that I've seen on it indicates that this trinket is just way way overpowered compared to anything we've ever seen before. The trinket would still be amazing if the boost was something like 15-20%, so I just don't see how it can remain as it is at 83%

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    When I see a combustion ticking for well over 300k with this trinket, my panties fell right through the floor.
    Currently on live, at my 530 ilevel, when the stars align and everything lines up, I can get 150-200k combustion ticks. With the +mastery and the +crit damage, you're looking at easily 400k, probably 500k ticks, and I would not be surprised when people start hitting things like a 560 ilevel for those ticks to start broaching the 1 million per tick mark when everything aligns properly.

    I can only imagine what your panties would do with 1million combustion ticks. (Incidentally - I think I know what blizzard would do, they'd change into their nerf panties and nerf the crap outta this trinket. And I wouldn't blame them for that.)

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