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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    Crit trinket and the amplifier one both have 105s ICD which lines up nice for combustions.
    This is subject to change. Why would they make RPPM in T15 to suddenly go back to the ICD system, which they have said they disliked?

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post

    Currently on live, at my 530 ilevel, when the stars align and everything lines up, I can get 150-200k combustion ticks. With the +mastery and the +crit damage, you're looking at easily 400k, probably 500k ticks, and I would not be surprised when people start hitting things like a 560 ilevel for those ticks to start broaching the 1 million per tick mark when everything aligns properly.

    I can only imagine what your panties would do with 1million combustion ticks. (Incidentally - I think I know what blizzard would do, they'd change into their nerf panties and nerf the crap outta this trinket. And I wouldn't blame them for that.)
    Yeah I was talking about self buffed only running mage armor. Only did it once, wasn't perfect, but it was silly as fuck to see 1mill single target sustain for 30 seconds.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    I feel like any caster that has a mega-large hitting ability is going to die for this trinket. Chaos bolts in the 1.5 million range? Guaranteed destro will start playing for camping 4 embers and tracking the ICD of this trinket so they can unload 4 CB's in a row and stack as many embers as possible during the trinket duration.

    The 3 absolute hardest hitting abilities in the game in my opinion are combustion, chaos bolt, and execute. Fire mages and destro locks are going to go completely bonkers with this trinket, which looks to me like, when used correctly, will be the most overpowered trinket I have ever seen. We're talking easily in the multiple millions of dps for the duration of this trinket. I'm imagining a havoc'ed chaos bolt hitting 2 mobs each for 2 million damage, 500k-1milliion ticks of spread combustions, just some crazy numbers.

    Personally I just can't see a trinket like this making it to live as is. An 83% boost as the trinket states just seems way too high, and the testing that I've seen on it indicates that this trinket is just way way overpowered compared to anything we've ever seen before. The trinket would still be amazing if the boost was something like 15-20%, so I just don't see how it can remain as it is at 83%
    I had initially thought this trinket had a huge downside for destro in that it forced our use of Dark soul (which it still will) but the trinket ICD didnt line with DS so it was a choice, but with the new AV (gives 2 charges on Dark soul) i think the trinket is probably to strong for Destruction because you have to remember if you dont crit it doesnt do much.

    Self buffed Chaos bolts are over 3 million with this trinket at 553 item level (my ptr toon), the damage is absoloutely stupid because i can fit more in that 20 second window than what i can maybe get for the next 40 seconds.

    Id like to see a passive version of the trinket getting made for casters because no matter what you do with this version its going to cause uncontrollable amounts of damage and abilities are going to get nerfed because of it, but you have to remember this is the highest our secondaries have ever been and this is an experiment for blizzard.

    Like ive pointed out before you cant really nerf the damage bonus because it maths out to be the equal of the passive one except that its really not in reality, but thats how blizzard do there math and this is normally fixed via hot fix's.

    To give an example of just how dumb this trinket is going to be and the sort of nerfs it could cause.

    Average combustion tick - 750k
    Ticks per second - 3
    Duration - 20 seconds
    Total damage - 2,250,000 (per second)

    Nerf either its ability to gain extra ticks with haste so it would tick 20 times instead of 60, this means combustion would go from doing 2.25 million dps on the pull to 750k (under full buffs), this would also make it crap anytime you dont have the trinket - No way to balance this both ways.

    Or

    Change the spell to go with current ignite and let it continue to keep scaling with haste

    I dont really think either option is good, but this is the problem, some casters like Destro and Fire scale like monsters from this trinket and will only get stronger, class's like Ele which have 2 caps on haste (because so little of there damage scales after the Global cooldown cap) and mastery (because it does nothing after 100%) dont get anywhere near as much you cant really nerf it that much.

    TL;DR - The trinket is way to overpowered when class's can stick a huge amount of damage into a small window, the question is how overpowered is it for the majority as thats where the outiers should be brung to.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    This is subject to change. Why would they make RPPM in T15 to suddenly go back to the ICD system, which they have said they disliked?
    Why would they buff fire so much in 5.1 that I didn't even need to load the game or theorycraft to know it 100% broken? Left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing or they make reasons to nerf things they can't easily hit without inciting tons of qq. Most likely the first option but still its funny when you can see the difference between pr and actual designers.

    @ above - It doesn't matter if they nerf it down to where other casters might not prefer the trinket because there are more than two trinkets to choose from. Not really something they'd need to worry about unless there are only two trinkets total. I didn't see them buffing the lei shen trinket so fire could use it for an example.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2013-07-14 at 10:02 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    @ above - It doesn't matter if they nerf it down to where other casters might not prefer the trinket because there are more than two trinkets to choose from. Not really something they'd need to worry about it unless there are only two trinkets total. I didn't see them buffing the lei shen trinket so fire could use it for an example.
    Lets look at ele as an example.

    Crit proc one - Useles during opener does absoloutely nothing during your burst cd's which is where you want your trinkets.

    Multistrike - Atm this really doesnt math out to be that great and it is still useless in burst

    Cleave - Doesnt even hit the primary target

    Stacking int - This is fine

    Amp - Even though the benfit is small, its bigger than the others above except the stacking int one

    All the trinkets this tier are an int proc which is fine for all the casters so fire wouldnt have any reason to want UVLS.
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  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    @ above - It doesn't matter if they nerf it down to where other casters might not prefer the trinket because there are more than two trinkets to choose from.
    Cleave is worthless on many fights. Not only is the proc too low but you don't need the AoE. Also, if it procs without adds nearby, it's just a complete waste. I'd only hold onto it for EXTREMELY situational... situations.

    Multistrike is crap for many specs (especially DoT users) because it could proc on a tiny attack rather than a big one. Most likely going to be crap for Fire unless you get very lucky (more luck? JUST what Fire needs!), but I could see some moderate use for Arcane or Frost.

    Int passive Crit proc is shit for specs that don't use crit (Worthless for Frost, meh for Arcane)

    Leaving only the Haste passive "Wush 2.0" and Amp trinkets. I feel like they messed up big time with these trinkets overall. There's no real way to balance them together when MS is so random and Crit procs aren't that helpful for most casters (as Haste is the more universal stat, or even Mastery being a pretty moderate one. Very few casters want Crit over Haste); Cleave just being a shit trinket overall because there aren't that many situations where it will prove too helpful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    All the trinkets this tier are an int proc which is fine for all the casters so fire wouldnt have any reason to want UVLS.
    T15 is actually a pretty good tier of trinkets. Breath, Wush, and Cha-Ye are all pretty spot on (Although CY should have had a 20s duration too), and for some specs, UVLS is there too to dicuss which are best. I've seen SO much discussion on multiple classes about which trinkets are best for them (usually comes down to Wush vs Breath with the other trinket being CY or UVLS; if neither they use W+B).

    With T16, I see 95% of casters wanting Amp and "Wush 2.0"; the other 5% trying out the "lesser" trinkets, or Fire Mages trying the crit proc.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  7. #47
    Was kind of the responses I was hoping for so I could ask this. So the master plan is to balance certain specs around having the trinket so that more classes can use the trinket rather than just nerfing the trinket and also buffing one of the useless trinkets into something useful? Not saying it couldn't work but it seems kind of cutting edge focused and pays no attention to all the guys who aren't so great. Even better idea? A direct nerf to the trinket, not the abilities of specific classes, only when equipped by said classes. Granted that is way more obvious than what Blizzard usually goes for but seems to be a lot less work and a lot more fair to players who aren't able to acquire said trinkets.

    not really directed at anyone specifically but this makes way more sense than nerfing abilities/classes under the assuption that the player has the trinket.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2013-07-14 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #48
    @polar

    Pretty spot on, I think as Destruction ill want to run the crit proc and amp trinkets together simply because they have the same ICD and ill run mastery > crit in t16, outside of that the only one ill even look at is the wush 2.0 one and choice between those 3 is basically what every caster will want, even look at boomkins, for them to use the crit proc trinket they really wouldnt gain that much (and would actually probably lose compared to the t15 trinkets).

    The trinkets this tier are going to put a really big spanner in the works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @turkey

    Id love an answer to that, this is basically the same discussion i had on the warlock forums last week where i said the difference that the 4 part and the amp trinket is going to make such a huge impact on the spec are blizzard going to decide its ok to balance the class's around these items or just let them roll face when they do get them.

    Whichever end of the blade blizzard decides to balance on is going to make a huge difference to some specs.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Cleave is worthless on many fights.
    Do you even participate in heroic raids? At all?

    In regards to trinkets, i think one of the better trinkets for a fire mage is going to be the Passive Crit and multistrike.
    Last edited by Corruptsoul; 2013-07-14 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #50
    Jinrohk - yeah great use of cleave
    Horridon- ok useful there
    Council- useful there
    Tortos - hoping that the proc lines up when the turtles are under tortos, no thanks unless you're padding on bats
    Megara- u wanna cleave the heads to pad meter? No thanks Jeff
    Jikun- adds already easy to kill, no thanks Jeff
    Durumu- maybe ok for ice walls but I'd rather have a stat proc still
    Primodius- still used for cleave padding
    Dark animus - u wanna wipe your raid by hitting the wrong targets? Yeah ok cleave trinket good for that
    Iron qon - nope
    Twins - nope
    Lei Shen- not really good, balls die too quickly thanks to warlocks
    Yeah the cleave trinket is reAllY good, do u even heroic raids brah?
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    Do you even participate in heroic raids? At all?

    In regards to trinkets, i think one of the better trinkets for a fire mage is going to be the Passive Crit and multistrike.
    Let me know when that cleave trinket becomes useful for something other than padding. Until then, re-evaluate your statement.

  12. #52
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corruptsoul View Post
    Do you even participate in heroic raids? At all?
    I mean I just got 11/13H, and there weren't many fights where I could see a 1.62% chance to cleave be useful (that's around one in every 60-70 spells). I may only have 1 kill on 7 of the bosses but I'm more than aware of how the fights work. Feel free to check my armory if you don't believe me.

    I could easily see use on Council, but not many others (Not even Horridon because it's too RNG and adds are often spread out)

    Quote Originally Posted by fearist View Post
    Jinrohk - yeah great use of cleave
    Horridon- ok useful there
    Council- useful there
    Tortos - hoping that the proc lines up when the turtles are under tortos, no thanks unless you're padding on bats
    Megara- u wanna cleave the heads to pad meter? No thanks Jeff
    Jikun- adds already easy to kill, no thanks Jeff
    Durumu- maybe ok for ice walls but I'd rather have a stat proc still
    Primodius- still used for cleave padding
    Dark animus - u wanna wipe your raid by hitting the wrong targets? Yeah ok cleave trinket good for that
    Iron qon - nope
    Twins - nope
    Lei Shen- not really good, balls die too quickly thanks to warlocks
    Yeah the cleave trinket is reAllY good, do u even heroic raids brah?
    Horridon, no, because they are often spread out and it's too RNG, plus the adds die so quickly that that ONE extra attack won't help all that much over the damage you'd get from other trinkets.

    Other than that, your list is spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Let me know when that cleave trinket becomes useful for something other than padding. Until then, re-evaluate your statement.
    Besides Council, that is. I'd probably use it there, unless it can proc from DoTs, in which case, I would never use that garbage.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  13. #53
    Horrid on adds aren't too spread out, I don't know how your guild handles it but even Vykina suggests using combustion on one set of adds to maximize dps. But even then it's not a big deal to argue over, I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt cause his comment was pretty stupid
    Last edited by fearist; 2013-07-14 at 11:09 PM.
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  14. #54
    I think the use of the cleave trinket may be for the size of the NEXT instance, not Throne, there seems to be plenty of room for trash, and when I mean plenty, I mean possible thousands of millions of trillions of trash. When there is a lot of trash, a good 700K crit that translates into a cleave on a possible 20 other mobs is a lot of damage.

  15. #55
    Am I alone in thinking that (for Fire) none of these trinkets, besides Amplification, will outperform a 549 Cha-Ye?

  16. #56
    Yes, you are lol
    #1 fire mage US. u mirin'?
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  17. #57
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    Am I alone in thinking that (for Fire) none of these trinkets, besides Amplification, will outperform a 549 Cha-Ye?
    Quote Originally Posted by fearist View Post
    Yes, you are lol
    Well, the Crit proc and Wush 2.0 probably will too. 549 CY > Multistrike and Cleave though.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Well, the Crit proc and Wush 2.0 probably will too. 549 CY > Multistrike and Cleave though.
    Mm, it's quite hard for anything to beat 9.7k int proc with 30% uptime unless its another int proc or something like AMP trinket.. The multistrike for example would need 300% buff to match the benefit we get from the int proc alone, not to mention crit benefits..

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Mm, it's quite hard for anything to beat 9.7k int proc with 30% uptime unless its another int proc or something like AMP trinket.. The multistrike for example would need 300% buff to match the benefit we get from the int proc alone, not to mention crit benefits..
    I actually think I've seen this posted by some other reputable mages - can't remember if it was in Vykina's thread or not, but I don't think it's necessarily a no-brainer. Wush 2.0 is extremely good when it procs, but with Combustion's importance to our overall output, it's kinda feast or famine. I pulled probably 10 times on the PTR with every haste buff I could get, after waiting a solid 10 minutes, and still never got the damned thing to proc before I needed to AT during my opening combustion sequence. It has enormous potential, especially since it stacks much more quickly than Wush 1.0, but it sucks when it's not up for combustion, and since Amp is on an ICD, you can't delay your combustions at all.

    The crit proc pairs extremely well with Amp, and I had them for every single combustion over a 10 minute span regularly without having to wait more than a few seconds once combustion was ready. But, at inflated gear, how much of that crit gets wasted? You can run mage armor for every combustion, but even then, I assume we'll be hard crit capped when it procs, especially with the heroic version. So, do you hope Wush 2.0 procs with Amp? Mastermind is always up for the opener, so it may not be as cut and dried as people think.
    Last edited by Huevos; 2013-07-15 at 02:47 PM.

  20. #60
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    Dunno in how many threads I have posted that, but with the crit proc trinket and amplifier, I would reforge to ~40 - 45% crit then mastery. I made same experiences as you, the trinkets synergize every combustion. Mastermind is there for every opener, but after that its like lottery.

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