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  1. #1

    Another rppm change -- What does it spell for mages?

    There are some further changes to the RPPM system in development that we'd like to share with you. As you know, RPPM is something we've been doing a lot of iteration on, and we have another iteration that should be hitting the PTR soon:

    As you may know, RPPM proc rates typically scale with haste. This was done because historically, attacking faster meant you had more chances to proc something, so got more procs, and we wanted to preserve that effect. However, most procs before RPPM were such that either their effect didn't also scale with haste, or their proc rate was predominantly limited by an ICD. Many of our RPPM effects thus far have had neither of these limitations, such that they effectively 'double-dipped' on haste, benefiting twice from it. In some extreme cases, the proc was designed such that they actually triple-dipped.

    As RPPM effects have become more wide-spread and more impactful, this has caused a variety of problems. Primarily, it has skewed stat balances toward haste rather significantly. It's also a compounding problem where many of these procs stack multiplicatively with each other, causing insane burst when all of these procs go off together. That can be fun, but also raises the skill cap on your performance, and makes gearing choices more restricted to ones which stack together optimally.

    For 5.4 we're going to change both new and existing RPPM procs to not double-dip on haste. Benefiting once from haste is fine and expected, but not twice. For example, suppose you have two hypothetical procs, Flamekissed and Villainy:
    Flamekissed's proc rate scales with haste, and its effect says "Chance on hit: Deal 500 additional fire damage". This is fine, because only the proc rate scales with haste; the effect doesn't.
    Villainy's proc rate also scales with haste, and its effect says "Chance on hit: +5000 Agility for 20sec." This is not fine, because both the proc rate and the proc effect scale with haste. The more haste you have, the more attacks you do in that 20sec period which benefit from the increased Agility.


    If both the rate and effect of a proc scale with haste, we're going to remove the haste scaling from its proc rate. In these cases, we'll compensate for an expected amount of haste by increasing the base proc rate. For any procs whose effect does not scale with haste, their proc rate will continue to scale with haste as before. However, we're also revisiting the proc rate tuning on all existing procs that were made overbudget due to the addition of Unlucky Streak Prevention (which ends up increasing effective proc rate by 9%). These changes should bring RPPM procs back to being on-budget and tied with traditional ICD procs in value.

    This will obviously have a noticeable effect on most players performance; don't panic. We're going to be adjusting damage/healing/tanking performance with these changes in mind.

    These RPPM changes should make it to PTR soon, and you'll be able to find the exact changes to each such effect there. We now show RPPM proc rates in the tooltip of the effect, which should make it easy to find.

    The part that worries me, is they're going to be adjusting damage/healing/tanking performance with these changes in mind. With the stigma of "mages always on the top" and the community backlash that will be if mages get buffed because of this, I'm worried they're going to not compensate mages, and instead over-compensate all of the other classes. Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but maybe not.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Wouldn't bother me greatly but for Alter Time, which I can guarantee will force both of my trinkets to proc the second I hit it. At least before, you could at least have a strong chance of instant procs.

    If we're lucky; this will be their only way of 'tweaking' fire (no massive combustions at the start spread to initial adds or council fights).

  3. #3
    Epic! Valanna's Avatar
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    The problem is just the inherent half-assed-ness of Alter Time. It has some serious issues, with that some effects are altered, some are not. I wouldn't worry about trinkets proccing in AT if the time since last proc variable was reset to the previous value afterwards, or another mage/shaman timing BL badly, which gets rid off the haste buff, but not sated. They need to address these issues to avoid mages literally being scary to play, and to avoid yet another factor of RNG to fire.
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  4. #4
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winst View Post
    Wouldn't bother me greatly but for Alter Time, which I can guarantee will force both of my trinkets to proc the second I hit it. At least before, you could at least have a strong chance of instant procs.

    If we're lucky; this will be their only way of 'tweaking' fire (no massive combustions at the start spread to initial adds or council fights).
    It won't be "no massive combustions", it will be fewer massive combustions. And that's one of the biggest problems with this change. Sometimes you'll do a ton of damage, sometimes a lot, and if one procs during AT, sometimes way less than you should. More RNG is bad for the game. I don't know how they can be so oblivious to that fact.

  5. #5
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    That's our problem - fine, adjust RPPM. It's not about the numbers for us.

    Screwing with alter time though just leads to frustration.

  6. #6
    Seems like this will make AT on pull even more frustrating than it already is... Seriously.

  7. #7
    Probably hurts frost more than others? One of the reasons frost mages have been stacking haste heavily is to make maximum use of RPPM trinkets - just like the ones that are getting adjusted. Weird that it took them that long to figure out that they "double-dip"...I was starting to think that it was intentional.

  8. #8
    Tiga,
    According to Pete's calculations and experience, as well as mine, trinket proc rate and % doesnt really depend that hard on haste.. sometimes i have 16% on BoTH on council, two times i had 50% uptime.. And as far as we can tell, frost would probably return to "4.3" state next patch anyway

  9. #9
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IsrafaelMage View Post
    Tiga,
    According to Pete's calculations and experience, as well as mine, trinket proc rate and % doesnt really depend that hard on haste.. sometimes i have 16% on BoTH on council, two times i had 50% uptime.. And as far as we can tell, frost would probably return to "4.3" state next patch anyway
    Don't mention that patch! Never again!

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Personally, I think all this change are good for gameplay.

    The first change should help to reduce a little some pull burst from certain spec (like shaman elem, fire mage, ...).
    The second chance is to reduce haste value for spec that normally don't stack haste (arcane ?).
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  11. #11
    Don't think this is the answer tbh. I would like to see a combination of the icd and rppm systems. Trinkets which have an icd but a low proc chance but also have some kind of bad luck protection after a certain amount of time.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktec View Post
    Don't think this is the answer tbh. I would like to see a combination of the icd and rppm systems. Trinkets which have an icd but a low proc chance but also have some kind of bad luck protection after a certain amount of time.
    I think that's a definite improvement over RPPM, but I still prefer ICD, mainly because it allows you to get consistent procs on pulls. They said that full trinket procs on pull was "breaking the game", yet they still leave that possibility. Instead of making a trinket proc have a more prolonged, but diminished effect on your output, they just made it harder to roll the dice in your favor. Great job Blizzard, way to take more control out of the players' hands.

    Remember the trinkets that gave you more or less permanent buffs? Way less spell power, but pretty much 100% uptime? Muradin's Spyglass, Illustration of the Dragon Soul, the caster DMC during BC that I can't remember the name of? I'm not saying we need those back, but they certainly didn't result in very high burst damage that Blizzard seems to think is a problem. And there's a happy middle ground in there somewhere, where you still have the dynamic proc mechanic, but not in a way that makes you do 2x damage.
    Last edited by Huevos; 2013-08-03 at 03:16 AM.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Edit: I typed the following assuming the thread was about the whole "not all RPPMs will usually proc on pulls" change, because I'm bad and don't read OPs at (almost) 4AM >.>; This loss of double-dipping on Haste doesn't hurt Fire that badly as we (usually) only go for 5036 Haste, which is fairly low to most other casters, especially those that use it for their main stat.


    Quote Originally Posted by winst View Post
    If we're lucky; this will be their only way of 'tweaking' fire (no massive combustions at the start spread to initial adds or council fights).
    If they tweak Fire (for the worse) in any other way, it'll be non-competitive .-.

    This hurts Fire probably worse than most other (classes) specs.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-08-03 at 10:12 AM.

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  14. #14
    That's a bit of an over-reaction Polar lol.

    Maybe I'm being stupidd, but theses changes don't mean a lot for fire, we are usually at quite low haste levels compared to most specs as it is plus they said the proc rate coefficient will increase in some way to compensate.

    In addition, if we look at the 5 caster trinkets in the new Tier, Amp and the Ctir proc (which will most likely be BiS for Fire) are on an ICD, the cleave and multi strike trinkets do not 'double dip' on haste as they are a static number based on hits so they are unaffected by these changes also. The only caster trinket that will be affected is the stacking Int trinket, which will definitely effect Arcane as it will be BiS but not really Fire or Frost as they probs won't be using it.

    The only issues I can really see we will have with Trinkets is we are affected UNTIL we get the new ones, as Che-ya, Breath and Woosh are all going to be affected by this but as said above, they said they'll adjust the coefficient and damage so we'll see on that one.

    All classes will be impacted on the Meta Procs but again, Fire usually runs with the least amount of haste for all 3 specs so I don't see how it will become 'non-competitive' if they still do a damage pass.

    I also don't quite understand the people above complaining about how this impacts Time? Am I missing something there? Alter Time will still snapshot the new procs and extend them as normal, you'll just wait for your trinkets to proc before hitting it as Normal. It's just means you might AT 10 secs into a fight instead of 5 secs in. I get they might not proc together, but it's just like having Che-ya and Woosh on live, Woosh has a crap chance to proc on pull so you end up not really having it in the first Combustion.
    Last edited by Pspsully; 2013-08-03 at 09:49 AM.

  15. #15
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pspsully View Post
    Maybe I'm being stupidd, but theses changes don't mean a lot for fire, we are usually at quite low haste levels compared to most specs as it is plus they said the proc rate coefficient will increase in some way to compensate.
    I actually didn't read the OP until your post because I assumed it was about the whole "not all RPPM get the bonus chance to proc on pulls" thing. My bad, and people should ignore my post above to this particular RPPM change Wasn't aware there are multiple.

    (As far as the one I ASSUMED this was about, it hurts our Combustion on pull by quite a bit, and was an easy way to nerf higher Mages without nerfing lower Mages )

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  16. #16
    heroic dark shamans was pretty lulz with multiple fire mages though with full procs on the pull, 34m+ just from combustion alone from each mage on the pull....

    Maybe thats what he meant by breaking the game lol?

  17. #17
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd love to see how fire does compared to frost without trinkets entirely.

    I think all these "scaling" issues come from the damn items themselves, not the classes.

  18. #18
    Arcane would win.

  19. #19
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabsy View Post
    Arcane would win.
    Surely, but nobody seems to complain about arcane scaling.

  20. #20
    That's why it'll be the progression spec of next tier i reckon :O

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