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  1. #161
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    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/102293-pu...s-of-immerseus

    Well then.

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/105648-bl...ood-of-yshaarj

    Guessing this one will be changed further, 10 stacks in 10 seconds isn't a thing that'll happen outside of double missiles.

    BotH got halved in duration, guessing they came to Pete's conclusion in the frost thread, and they're proccing too little. Halving duration means they likely doubled proc rate. Interesting changes.

    Wush got changed to 1/sec for 10s as well. Looks like almost all trinkets at 20s duration were halved.

  2. #162
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Well that sucks. Not surprised that Amp got a nerf, but didn't think it'd get cut in half. Black Blood sucks if you have slow cast times and don't have a lot of spells off the GCD you can steal stacks with. Although, this does mean we're much more likely to see procs on pull, which is great news for fire.

    Starting to think Heroic TF Cha-Ye is going to last an awfully long time...

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/102293-pu...s-of-immerseus

    Well then.

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/105648-bl...ood-of-yshaarj

    Guessing this one will be changed further, 10 stacks in 10 seconds isn't a thing that'll happen outside of double missiles.

    BotH got halved in duration, guessing they came to Pete's conclusion in the frost thread, and they're proccing too little. Halving duration means they likely doubled proc rate. Interesting changes.

    Wush got changed to 1/sec for 10s as well. Looks like almost all trinkets at 20s duration were halved.

    Looking at the uncategorized on wowhead, it does look that way. I am wondering which collection of trinkets will be the best -- More ptr testing. I hoped they fix the legendary cloak proc not scaling with dmg modifiers as well.

    Still thinking purified bindings will be bis. Hoping the kardis' toxic totem is bis as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Well that sucks. Not surprised that Amp got a nerf, but didn't think it'd get cut in half. Black Blood sucks if you have slow cast times and don't have a lot of spells off the GCD you can steal stacks with. Although, this does mean we're much more likely to see procs on pull, which is great news for fire.

    Starting to think Heroic TF Cha-Ye is going to last an awfully long time...

    Kinda good news for everyone, we were losing a lot of dps with the rppm changes, this cushions it. I got lore to tweet that many specs were going to be buffed during the damage pass, whether mages are involved in that buffage is still to be seen. I'd hate to lose all that dps b/c of an rppm change and then the legendary cloak would basically make up for the lost dmg, I'd feel weaker than the previous patch just because of same changes...And i'd be the same strength WITH the legendary cloak as before the patch hit.

    If they don't buff pretty much every spec including all 3 mage specs, I think all specs may start to fall dps-wise.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-08-07 at 06:22 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Starting to think Heroic TF Cha-Ye is going to last an awfully long time...
    I just looked back, I had the same thought on page 3 of this thread (3 weeks ago now). It seems with each pass they do with the 5.4 trinkets (e.g., first they make Amplification static, then they change RPPM, then they halve the static Amp buff), they get less and less appealing to me. And as they get less appealing, 549 Cha-Ye gets better and better by comparison.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    I just looked back, I had the same thought on page 3 of this thread (3 weeks ago now). It seems with each pass they do with the 5.4 trinkets (e.g., first they make Amplification static, then they change RPPM, then they halve the static Amp buff), they get less and less appealing to me. And as they get less appealing, 549 Cha-Ye gets better and better by comparison.
    If that trinket stays good too long, it'll get nerfed hardcore.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    I'll take my hat off. Well done with your suggestion.

  7. #167
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    They did buff the rppm a little. It could do good for Fire or Arcane, even for haste Arcane.

    But for Frost, it's another story :
    • it have huge haste (~15k haste)
    • it have a huge up-time of Sinister meta (40%)
    • the meta resulted in increasing Rppm proc rate.
    • haste is a spec mechanics that are tied to proc
    It's like the double dip was in fact a triple dip. It should be the case for all spec that use haste as spec mechanics like drood.

    So we have 3 case :
    • spec with low haste - they gain from the correction a little
    • spec with high haste - they loose from the correction a little
    • spec tied to haste - they loose from correction a lot

    Sorry if I'm not clear enough but some already speak of a 5% dps loss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    why all the in-between post don't show is a mystery but the do change the way rppm work.

    For Amp, 7% is the only way. It's a equivalent to a 1.4k increase + critical's damage/heal.
    For Darkspear, it will depend on how it work. if it can stack from every thing, it can work: dot, waterbolt, icicle, etc. If not, we can expect a revert to 20s but with only half intel.
    Last edited by Nathyiel; 2013-08-07 at 09:44 AM.
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  8. #168
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    @Nath: Remember Amp does take the mastery raid buff, and mage armour for those of us who use it. So it's a bit more than your calc, but not that much. It's an important thing if you're doing some calculations on it, though.

    As to Darkspear, I'm actually expecting more along the lines of doubling what a stack is worth, but only stacks up to 5. Seems the more logical way to do it if they're going to make trinkets 10s across the board. Either that, or make it automatically stack and literally make it Wush v2. There's no realistic non-arcane missiles way to stack it to 10 inside 10 seconds for any class. If they keep it as is, it looks kinda bad for everyone.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-08-07 at 12:27 PM.

  9. #169
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I did some Wush/Y'Shaarj (darkspear) comparison.
    if you have heroic Wush, you can skip lfr even upgraded*2
    if you have heroic thunder Wush (upgraded or not), skip Flex and go for normal Y'Shaarj.
    The answers is 42
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  10. #170
    Why are Wushoolay and Breath of the Hydra only 10 second duration now when they used to be 20 sec? Are their proc rates doubled or something?

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/96785-wus...s-final-choice
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/96827-breath-of-the-hydra

    Cha'ye is still 10 seconds, doesn't make sense. RPPM nerf doesn't really affect Fire because we only have 5k Haste, which is ~12% Haste, but the nerf really hurts Frost.
    Last edited by NeverStop; 2013-08-07 at 01:31 PM.

  11. #171
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    With increased proc rate, the loss due to the haste change in rppm calculation will decrease but they also reduce the duration to skip make it to powerful.

    For Cha-ye, it have a 10s CD because it scaled both with haste and crit. But now, they remove haste from the equation, breath (and a lot other) was toned down to 10s. I think some blue will explain it better in a few day.
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  12. #172
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    I'd love to see Black Blood changed to 5 stacks of more int, but that makes it very strong for mages because of all the spells we can use off the global to gain stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Why are Wushoolay and Breath of the Hydra only 10 second duration now when they used to be 20 sec? Are their proc rates doubled or something?

    Cha'ye is still 10 seconds, doesn't make sense. RPPM nerf doesn't really affect Fire because we only have 5k Haste, which is ~12% Haste, but the nerf really hurts Frost.
    Almost certainly their proc rates are going to be doubled. I'm a huge fan of this change because it means more reliable trinket procs on pull, so more consistent burst and less trinkets eaten by Alter, yay! Probably also makes Wush more likely to line up for high stacks during the combustion sequence on pull.

  13. #173
    From my arcane testing so far, your burst window is VERY small now, basically down from 20 seconds to 10 seconds. I am thinking this may hurt fire, because it's hard for me to get 4 stack arcane charges and then arcane power/alter time before they fall off. It's going to make for a VERY rushed burst, and going to be hard to align fire's burst. If you get unlucky crit-wise, your burst is gonna fall flat on it's face.


    On a side note -- The legendary cloak proc still isn't scaling with damage modifiers in this build.

  14. #174
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    From my arcane testing so far, your burst window is VERY small now, basically down from 20 seconds to 10 seconds. I am thinking this may hurt fire, because it's hard for me to get 4 stack arcane charges and then arcane power/alter time before they fall off. It's going to make for a VERY rushed burst, and going to be hard to align fire's burst. If you get unlucky crit-wise, your burst is gonna fall flat on it's face.


    On a side note -- The legendary cloak proc still isn't scaling with damage modifiers in this build.
    Opener burst won't be effected. It's pretty easy to get it off within Cha-Ye's uptime. Lining up stuff further down the line may be a bigger PITA though, yeah. Depending on how strong the trinket procs end up being though, one trinket may be just fine still though.

    I should really get my ass on the PTR and start messing around with these trinkets for fire and seeing which of them lines up nicely a few mins into a fight.

    Also: Kind of an off the wall question - but do you think using Berzerking to more quickly get to 4 charges with more trinket uptime left to be extended by AT would be worth it for arcane burst?
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-08-07 at 09:36 PM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Opener burst won't be effected. It's pretty easy to get it off within Cha-Ye's uptime. Lining up stuff further down the line may be a bigger PITA though, yeah. Depending on how strong the trinket procs end up being though, one trinket may be just fine still though.
    I'd prefer to have the toxic totem and bindings, not sure though. Black blood may still be really good. I'll need to do some testing, however with the legendary cloak proc still not being fixed I just don't feel like testing. Gonna wait for that to be fixed and the damage pass to start testing again.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Still BIS for fire mages by far and any other caster speccs. Don't know if there's one that will not wanne get it.

    As one may also see, 7-8% more critical strike damage alone makes that trinket BIS for fire mages, adding the haste and mastery makes it very very dominant. Without that trinket, Fire DPS will be somewhat broken. Arcane also gets very high values out of it.

    Think of the heroic version: 8% of mastery, arcane will have easily 20k mastery in SOO heroic gear, probably even more. So it's 1600 mastery alone + 880 haste. Already beating 2200 haste from one trinket. And in addition, it will have +8% crit damage. An arcane mage will crit for 30% in SOO gear, getting a dps increase of about 1%-1.2%. So every Arcane mage is gonna try getting it over all other trinkets.

    In the end, the other trinkets look at best pretty solid. Cleave trinket is gonne be very situational, Multistrike and Immerseus are the way to go for the moment. Black Blood is gonna suck in it's current state, expecting a buff to come. Though Amplify >> all other trinkets - because Amplify is a lot stronger and the procc is on a ICD, not RPPM. We will get it to procc at the beginning of the fight. RPPM trinkets currently don't procc for quite some time so for the moment, RPPM trinkets procc far far after AT/Combustion.

    The more i think about it, the Amplify trinket is still very dominating for all speccs. They seriously need to buff RPPM trinkets. They way way nerfed them too far, RPPM trinkets need to proc right after the pull (or say within 15 seconds).

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Still BIS for fire mages by far and any other caster speccs. Don't know if there's one that will not wanne get it.

    As one may also see, 7-8% more critical strike damage alone makes that trinket BIS for fire mages, adding the haste and mastery makes it very very dominant. Without that trinket, Fire DPS will be somewhat broken. Arcane also gets very high values out of it.

    Think of the heroic version: 8% of mastery, arcane will have easily 20k mastery in SOO heroic gear, probably even more. So it's 1600 mastery alone + 880 haste. Already beating 2200 haste from one trinket. And in addition, it will have +8% crit damage. An arcane mage will crit for 30% in SOO gear, getting a dps increase of about 1%-1.2%. So every Arcane mage is gonna try getting it over all other trinkets.

    In the end, the other trinkets look at best pretty solid. Cleave trinket is gonne be very situational, Multistrike and Immerseus are the way to go for the moment. Black Blood is gonna suck in it's current state, expecting a buff to come. Though Amplify >> all other trinkets - because Amplify is a lot stronger and the procc is on a ICD, not RPPM. We will get it to procc at the beginning of the fight. RPPM trinkets currently don't procc for quite some time so for the moment, RPPM trinkets procc far far after AT/Combustion.

    The more i think about it, the Amplify trinket is still very dominating for all speccs. They seriously need to buff RPPM trinkets. They way way nerfed them too far, RPPM trinkets need to proc right after the pull (or say within 15 seconds).


    It's off the first boss so highly accessible in normal and heroic. Eventually it'll be like jin'rokh where you don't need any gear off him including that trinket

  18. #178
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    The Trinket http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102293/p...s-of-immerseus seems bugged, because it doesn´t proc anymore : / Hope they will fix it for tonights raid tests.

    Just tested http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102310/b...ood-of-yshaarj with 10s duration: I never reached 10 Stacks with frost or fire (7 - 8 stacks avg), but I very often reached 10 Stacks in ~3 seconds with arcane, thanks to AM and the Tier 16 4p. So many classes will never ever see the last stack. Pretty unfair and unrewarding mechanic.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-08 at 06:13 AM.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    The Trinket http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102293/p...s-of-immerseus seems bugged, because it doesn´t proc anymore : / Hope they will fix it for tonights raid tests.

    Just tested http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102310/b...ood-of-yshaarj with 10s duration: I never reached 10 Stacks with frost or fire (7 - 8 stacks avg), but I very often reached 10 Stacks in ~3 seconds with arcane, thanks to AM and the Tier 16 4p. So many classes will never ever see the last stack. Pretty unfair und unrewarding mechanic.
    What is being tested. How many heroic bosses are we up to? lol

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    On a side note -- The legendary cloak proc still isn't scaling with damage modifiers in this build.
    Sorry, can you clarify? That means proc always do the same damage, depending on your intellect, crit\haste in non-combat, ignoring things like flask, trinket procs, jade spirit, invocation, potion? But from PTR Garrosh logs I saw this proc to do about 3,5% of your total dps which is not bad I think.

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