Crazy Rogue overhaul idea's

[Flexxtar]

Hey Rogue’s and non-Rogues,

Since the general concensus about the 3 different rogue specs are so similar, I was thinking of ways to change it (just fantasizing really).

General:

Keep Burst of Speed what it will be in 5.4. 15 Energy cost and 70% speed increase breaking snares (not roots), no longer a talent and replacing sprint altogether.
Have the regular energy gain, but make every melee hit (normal as well as special attacks) gain 2 energy.
1 energy regenerating skill (15 energy gained) on a 10 sec cooldown, 100% weapon damage.
Double combo point generation on critical strike.
Deadly throw again baseline
New buff types, once activated, stays on till cancelled: Slice and Dice (attack speed) / <name> (% damage boost) / <name> (Combo point builders (non-stealth) can be used from 30 yards, with 20% damage reduction to those abilities so not to make them overpowered)
More poison choices: The ones we have now + Weakening poisons (10% damage reduction from target) / etc
Combo points on the rogue!!!!!

Assassination:

Theme: Proc-based and Bleed and poison centered.

Hemorrhage removed from subtlety, and placed in Assassination.
Dispatch and blindside remain the same, but also procs from Hemorrhage
Envenom as main damage finisher, next to rupture

Combat:

Theme: Face to face combat, Able to take more of a beating (as well as avoiding more) than the other specs

Dual wielding any 1-handed weapon (as it is now).

Ghostly strike - 40 Energy 125% weapon damage and increases your change to dodge for 10 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
10% extra damage reduction
Combat readiness is standard for this spec, no longer a talent.
[Farstretched] Tank perhaps?
Recuperate has 6% extra damage reduction
Evicerate main damage finisher
New finisher: damage reducing finisher (same damage reduction on every combo point, combo points determine the amount of time of the buff)

Subtlety:

Theme: Centered around being in the shadows/stealth even while in combat.

Lower vanish cooldown (becomes a dps cooldown for this spec)
Lower Cloak of shadows cooldown
Cloak and Dagger is standard for this spec, no longer a talent. Works with shadowdance (now 1,5 minute cooldown. DPS cooldown)
Killing spree removed from combat to Subtlelty. Cooldown 1 minute and numbers lowered to compensate.
New finisher: Shadow Trance – Like shadow dance, enabling use of stealth moves, combo points determine the amount of energy reduction (5 combo points 60% reduction). 6 seconds duration. Works with Cloak and Dagger.


Of course this is not completed, these are just idea’s I threw in there.
What do you guys think? Would these changes take out the similarity of all specs?
Or is all I just wrote ridiculous?

[Deleted]

General
- Combo points on the player (just keep the visuals on target)
- Anticipation baseline for every spec
- Shadowstep baseline for every spec, longer cooldown (like 30 seconds). Improved shadowstep talent -> lower cooldown/use charges (like double time from warriors).
- Remove energy cost from TotT.
- Nerf feint
- Improve visuals (nothing too flashy though, we are rogues after all).

Assassination
- Keep it poison based
- Keep mutilate
- Keep it slower than combat
- Remove SND or give the AS buff in some other way

Combat
- Keep it fast paced and frantic
- Scale SS cost and power with the amount of energy regen you have (I don't know if this would be easy to implement... )
- Keep KS, make it faster
- Keep restless blades and Adrenaline rush.
- Keep an eye on the spec's energy capping issues through the expansion and apply small changes when needed (increase costs/power accordingly)

Subtlety
- no idea, havent played it in a while

Crazy idea
Make only 1 finisher for each spec, that changes based on the CP generating abilities you used on the last 5CP - maybe even some actual "combos" by changing it based on the ORDER you used them. I don't know, maybe it would be too complex...

[Flexxtar]

Crazy idea
Make only 1 finisher for each spec, that changes based on the CP generating abilities you used on the last 5CP - maybe even some actual "combos" by changing it based on the ORDER you used them. I don't know, maybe it would be too complex...

Your summary looks a lot cleaner than mine :S
I also notice that you're improving on the current rogue situation, while I prefer a complete overhaul (mostly anyway).
I did like your last comment about actual combo's. Could make it a lot more interesting to play!

[Deleted]

I don't know, I feel they have the right idea for each spec, its just the execution falls short on the fun/creative/visual side. And as much as I'd love a full rework, I've come to love some of our abilities and consider them sort of like "signature" moves for the class, and would hate to see them change completely or just outright removed.

I believe our core is strong and flavorful, and our situation is not as bad as everyone seems to think it is. We just need some attention. Some people at blizz sitting down and talking: "How can we make the rogue more fun?".

[D3athsting]

I think one thing is extremely important: give stealth (our signature skill) a reason to exist in pve, now it's almost useless.

[finn]

I don't know, I feel they have the right idea for each spec, its just the execution falls short on the fun/creative/visual side. And as much as I'd love a full rework, I've come to love some of our abilities and consider them sort of like "signature" moves for the class, and would hate to see them change completely or just outright removed.

I believe our core is strong and flavorful, and our situation is not as bad as everyone seems to think it is. We just need some attention. Some people at blizz sitting down and talking: "How can we make the rogue more fun?".

you're quite right with almost everything you said, and i agree. but i think, many are disappointed because our "signatures" (be that skills like stealth, our dps, or whatever you can think of and made us special as a class in the past) were given away freely to other classes and specs. it is the curse of homogenization, i guess. furthermore we lack an intercessor (or something similar) in the dev-department like mages have with GC himself (and if i am not misinformed, most of the other classes have, too). and last but not least it is the feeling of being neglected (note: "feeling"! it's not a fact!), when we are trying to give constructive feedback during a PTR or Beta and nothing ever happens but the devs telling us: "you're perfect, you're fine. playing your class is fun!". from a development standpoint this is most probably true, but for us, the players and lovers of this class, that's just not enough.

but b2t:
i really like all of your ideas so far! ofc some things really had to be balanced (the OP's sub rogue would wreak havoc in every PvP-situation!), but the overall concepts are quite nice.

on a sidenote: what do you think of a mechanic like the old saboteur in Rift had for Assas? the assassin puts via skills poison charges on his target, which could have some special effects. these effects are triggert via using Envenom. effects could be anything like +xx% more damage from poisons or shadow or the like; +xx% damage from Bleeds; -xx% movement/cast-speed; a.s.o. whatever you can think of.
so, the playstyle would be like: the assassin has a set amount of different charges, and applies them to his opponent via different skills. he can mix and match up to five charges. every charge also grants a CP. those charges' special effects are triggered by using Envenom. maybe you could make some bonuses on top, if you mix those charges in a special order or something like that.
i'm not talking about balance, just throwing an idea around for a concept that i enjoyed in another game.

[Dropndestroyrr]

Keep Burst of Speed what it will be in 5.4. 15 Energy cost and 70% speed increase breaking snares (not roots), no longer a talent and replacing sprint altogether.

Sprint costs 0 energy. Don't remove sprint.

[Deleted]

Make only 1 finisher for each spec, that changes based on the CP generating abilities you used on the last 5CP - maybe even some actual "combos" by changing it based on the ORDER you used them. I don't know, maybe it would be too complex...

I like this idea - perhaps a sort of Tekken-esque style of gameplay? like pressing sinister, sinister, revealing and then some sort of combo finisher button would cause you to eviscerate, whilst sinister, revealing, sinister and then finisher would cause a different finisher. Might be good as combat only, which I feel could do with a rehaul in 6.0 in order to give it slightly more depth.

[Flexxtar]

The main thing they I feel they should change is the feel of the specs, meaning unique.
Now when you change specs, all you use are different named abilities with the same intent. Every spec uses slice and dice as well as rupture. Mutilate (assassination) equals Sinister strike (combat) equals hemorrhage (subtlety), so to speak.

New finishers and theme's would fix the similarity problems.

I like the combo ideas above, but in the end i think it will al be min-maxxed.

[ymirsson]

The main thing they I feel they should change is the feel of the specs, meaning unique.
Now when you change specs, all you use are different named abilities with the same intent. Every spec uses slice and dice as well as rupture. Mutilate (assassination) equals Sinister strike (combat) equals hemorrhage (subtlety), so to speak.

New finishers and theme's would fix the similarity problems.

I like the combo ideas above, but in the end i think it will al be min-maxxed.

Err, the abilities are different, where is your problem? That they follow the same intent, thats the mechanics of the game, not a class problem.

[Flexxtar]

Err, the abilities are different, where is your problem? That they follow the same intent, thats the mechanics of the game, not a class problem.

Problem, no.
It's just my opinion (and i read from so many others) that the specs are too similar. All specs have to use the same finishers for example. Why not make each spec have unique finishers that complement them?
Assassination and subtlety shouldn't have to use slice and dice for example. Make them use a bleed finisher (assassination - rupture) and some shadowy stuff for subtlety (like in my proposed idea)

[ymirsson]

Why do you need different finishers? the spec mechanics differ vastly, the flow of combat feels different in each spec, i honestly don't feel like there is a need to overhaul the class completely just to differentiate the finishers or builders from each other.

The class as a whole could use a reevaluation, but i wouldn't waste dev time on a new shiny icon in each spec so some people feel like they got new toys.
I'D give rogues Combo points stacking on the rogue and i would have a hefty talk with the AE department. That and combat needs rescaling.

[Kulestu]

Err, the abilities are different, where is your problem? That they follow the same intent, thats the mechanics of the game, not a class problem.

The point is that every spec is the same. It's either RvS>SS>SnD+rupture>evis or Mut>Dispatch>Rupture>Envenom or Hemo>Backstab>SnD+Rupture>Evis.

The problem is that every spec does the same things, you have 2 buttons and 3 finishers, though sin only has to hit SND once. Look at the difference in Mage and Warlock specs, they actually play and feel differently, and they're all pretty much viable depending on the fight.

[ymirsson]

But it feels different, and thats what matters. At least to me.

[Kael]

I really like the basic ideas behind your proposals - giving assassination another bleed to work with and maybe making the non-auto-attacks more powerful, genuinely separating the trees in terms of benefits... - I don't see Killing Spree in subtlety, but that's another story.

The one big issue I see is that with your current design, Combat has more passive and active mitigation than the other specs, but isn't yet a tank spec. With more mitigation, it either has to do less damage (never get used), or it will be the go-to PvE spec forever; if one spec does similar/same damage and takes less damage, you ALWAYS use it.

Also concerned the design changes could push Sub further into the slot of "this is your PvP spec" but with a redesign of stealth to have more to do with damage and less with CC, we could recover it.

[Flexxtar]

I really like the basic ideas behind your proposals - giving assassination another bleed to work with and maybe making the non-auto-attacks more powerful, genuinely separating the trees in terms of benefits... - I don't see Killing Spree in subtlety, but that's another story.

The one big issue I see is that with your current design, Combat has more passive and active mitigation than the other specs, but isn't yet a tank spec. With more mitigation, it either has to do less damage (never get used), or it will be the go-to PvE spec forever; if one spec does similar/same damage and takes less damage, you ALWAYS use it.

Also concerned the design changes could push Sub further into the slot of "this is your PvP spec" but with a redesign of stealth to have more to do with damage and less with CC, we could recover it.

Thanks for liking it first of all.
Second, with the subtlety changes it was to give it a unique gimmicky flavor using stealth and shadowy stuff. Not so much as a buff to pvp but more aimed to pve (not requiering to be behind target, or rather automatic placing with the finisher.
About combat, the focus was to make it more a toe to toe fighter. Tougher than the other 2 specs, without becoming a warrior.

In my opinion, they should not be specifically pve or pvp. Rather viability to both ends.
Play the spec you want, with whatever content you do, without being gimped.

[Mascotte]

Combo Points needs to become a selfbuff first, no more odd redirecting etc.
The rogue is an assassin, performing stronger attacks that build up over time (CP's) but currently its too limiting of a system.
Anticipation needs to become core, overcapping CP's are completely wasted and its kinda stupid that we need a finaltier talent to fix this.

I like the higher energy cost on SS (its going to 50 energy) with a decent dmg increase that they talked about yesterday, so maybe that fixes some of it.
Eviscerate is to unreliable as a finisher atm, the damage range is to wide.
A 5pt Evi can do enormous damage or fall below the previous SS in terms of damage due to procs etc.
Maybe turn it into a combined damage that the target took while gaining CP's on it (yes, im aware this is unable to happen with my first point listed) so it evens out a bit more.
1 sloppy Evi that uses up 5 potential SS's is meh, 1 Evi that does the same damage as those 5 SS's combined (maybe with an multiplier or dmg cap or something for balance purposes) is alot more likely to feel rewarding.
Would still need a fix for dmg while gaining CP's from other sources then SS tho.

[Kulestu]

I'm just hoping for a gigantic overhaul/rework in the next expansion. I quit from Cata until about 3 months ago and almost every other class got some massive changes. Warlocks, mages, priests (particularly shadow), ret pallies and balance druids have changed a ton. It seems to me that the last class to not have been reworked in a substantial period of time is the rogue. We've obviously changed with patches, but we're not particularly distinguishable from even Vanilla until now. I don't know what has to change, but it's pretty obvious that we should be the next rework class. Even hunters, the other "boring" class with no spec differences that hasn't been touched in awhile changed from mana to focus (though it really didn't have a gigantic play impact).

[Deleted]

Problem, no.
It's just my opinion (and i read from so many others) that the specs are too similar. All specs have to use the same finishers for example. Why not make each spec have unique finishers that complement them?
Assassination and subtlety shouldn't have to use slice and dice for example. Make them use a bleed finisher (assassination - rupture) and some shadowy stuff for subtlety (like in my proposed idea)

It depends on how you see it. They might be the same abilities, with the same name, but they aren't used for the same purpose. Rupture is a core skill in Assassination, but entirely relies on DP, and is Assa's cleave, whereas it is a somewhat minor finisher in Combat you don't really have to care about, and it is again something else in Sub, merely a prerequisite to start DPSing, replaceable by another ability (and the fact it does actually good damages too is only a bonus). Eviscerate is *the* core ability of Combat due to Restless Blades and its pace, while it's almost just a filler in Sub, or at least should be/used to be when the spec was better, during Cata. And in Assassination it is again something totally different as it adds a debuff to pay attention to (I'm speaking theorycally here though, since Envenom buff's management's impact is close to none; it obviously shouldn't be that way).
Same goes for most 'class-shared' spells in our grimoire.

Slice and Dice is null in Assassination, and for the other specs, it's the standard buff you have to maintain (e.g. Invocation, Inquisition).

Most of the suggestions I've read in this thread seem to me whether pointless (like having unique finishers that would only divide our current ones to three distinct skill, while they are already different from one spec to another), or going toward an increased simplificity, and that while the rogue class already has little to no complexity. (I'd actually rather use the word plainness.)

Combo Points needs to become a selfbuff first, no more odd redirecting etc.
The rogue is an assassin, performing stronger attacks that build up over time (CP's) but currently its too limiting of a system.
Anticipation needs to become core, overcapping CP's are completely wasted and its kinda stupid that we need a finaltier talent to fix this.

I would really be disappointed if CP would become a selfbuff. CP being on the target adds a lot of depth in the rogue gameplay, both in PvE and in PvP. It is one of the few things that really define the class. If you want to play with CP on the players, make a retpal. It's great, it's funny, it's really simple (I'm talking only about Holy Power, not the ret gameplay as a whole), but it is not roguish. At all. Dealing with CP on the target makes things so much more interesting and rewarding.

(I don't see how your view of rogues being assassins has anything to do with the matter btw.)

About Anticipation being baseline, it's kind of a catch-22. Being mandatory, it indeed prevent us playing with anything else from the level 90 tier, but if it was baseline, rogues would be either way too strong, which is not good, or T90 would become a weak tier, which is certainly not better. That's not really overhauling, huh.


Anyway, the only change I really wish for without being skeptical about its possible aftermaths is: rogues should be able to use Tricks on themselves (without removing the possiblity of giving it to someone else).

[ymirsson]

Rogues (and ferals?)are the only class with combo points which still carry them on the target, a remnant of the olde pvp days. Besides any balance and "skill" implications, it would be a QoL change and it would lessen the impact of any anticipation change, as you would waste less cp then before.