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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Korru View Post
    Did it take a miracle to kill Lei Shen? No? I guess he's weaker than the Lich King then...
    this makes me so sad as we are supposed to be some bad ass heroes of the horde/alliance, yet it takes a miracle to kill some guy

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    This is an utterly meaningless statement: "see it from a 'lore' perspective"? You have no idea what the physics of this world is or what defines these powers. There is nothing other than the story. The entire discussion of "who is stronger" is a meaningless discussion because the characters do not exist and do not have specifically defined abilities.

    The derp is on you for pretending made-up characters in a story that are introduced as protagonists and antagonists for the purposes of advancing a plot line can be treated as "real beings" and have their abilities compared. Its a meaningless exercise because at any given moment their powers can be altered and redefined by the authors.
    Okay...

    I do think people under play the amount our characters must have increased in power over the years, not that I'm suggesting we could take the LK without help now, though, who knows really.

    One thing I would say is in reply to Adeptus Mechanicus looking Cattlehunter guy is that the LK had a vast near continent spanning empire we had to fight through, which took up the majority of the expansion (including some very interesting (Ulduar) and a less interesting (ToC) diversions), whereas with the TK, he was only just starting to get back into the swing of things, which we, luckily nipped in the bud before he took control of Pandaria again.

  3. #43
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Equal to the Lich King if not stronger.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    You are not really right when you can compare Sargeras to Edvin Vancleef and we will have an obvious answer.
    You're wrong and the reason you're wrong is because next week we could have someone under contract to write "Heart of VanCleef" wherein he is resurrected and possessed by Sargaras. There could be a magic ritual that makes him super badass because thats how magic works. It just "works".

    They're stories, and the characters exist to move along the plot. As a result, they always have the power necessary to make an interesting story. Sargaras is supposedly so amazingly powerful... yet he is defeated and outsmarted by mortals. Which also throws in to question the entire premise that an entity's "power level" has anything to do with its ability to win a fight. When pitiful human brains are outsmarting supposedly immortal God-like entities, what does "power level" matter anyway, even if you could define it?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    You're wrong and the reason you're wrong is because next week we could have someone under contract to write "Heart of VanCleef" wherein he is resurrected and possessed by Sargaras. There could be a magic ritual that makes him super badass because thats how magic works. It just "works".

    They're stories, and the characters exist to move along the plot. As a result, they always have the power necessary to make an interesting story. Sargaras is supposedly so amazingly powerful... yet he is defeated and outsmarted by mortals. Which also throws in to question the entire premise that an entity's "power level" has anything to do with its ability to win a fight. When pitiful human brains are outsmarting supposedly immortal God-like entities, what does "power level" matter anyway, even if you could define it?
    Then next week we can reevaluate their power levels, but for now Vancleef is much weaker. Theres nothing wrong with discussing topics like these based on current information knowing that next week the information could be outdated. Sounds like science class.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    You're wrong and the reason you're wrong is because next week we could have someone under contract to write "Heart of VanCleef" wherein he is resurrected and possessed by Sargaras. There could be a magic ritual that makes him super badass because thats how magic works. It just "works".

    They're stories, and the characters exist to move along the plot. As a result, they always have the power necessary to make an interesting story. Sargaras is supposedly so amazingly powerful... yet he is defeated and outsmarted by mortals. Which also throws in to question the entire premise that an entity's "power level" has anything to do with its ability to win a fight. When pitiful human brains are outsmarting supposedly immortal God-like entities, what does "power level" matter anyway, even if you could define it?
    Strong and weak characters also exist in the plot.. That's why Blizzard has to come up with a special circumstance for us to beat really powerful beings like Archimonde and DW. That's because they are exeptionally powerful. Them being defeated doesn't make them equal to any other character out there we defeated. You can't say something like all characters are equal in power because they are all there to move the plot. Each character are different and that's what important.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    The Lich King was able to whipe everyone out when he wanted to, and it took a miracle of the light, Tirion + Terenas and pretty much every single soul that Arthas tortured to defeat him.

    Lei Shen was only killed by the adventure, without any help or miracle. I don't see how Lei Shen can be more powerfull then LK
    Lei shen would annihilate LK, LK isn't even remotely impressive, nor has he done much impressive things either. Look at Lei shen :

    Race created by titans
    Tore out the heart of a titan watcher
    Forged an entire empire
    Controlled various titan devices
    Got resurrected from the dead
    Vaporizes enemies with lightning

    Now what did the lich king do?
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Then next week we can reevaluate their power levels, but for now Vancleef is much weaker. Theres nothing wrong with discussing topics like these based on current information knowing that next week the information could be outdated. Sounds like science class.
    I never said it was "wrong" I said it was pointless.

    Science class is thinking that objective facts about a fabricated universe exist in the first place. Does warcraft universe have a graviational constant? Does it obey the laws of thermodynamics? What are the limits of the magic system?

    We have no information whatsoever about Lei Shen. He supposedly died of old age, how come the trolls can even resurrect him? If they do, why does he not resurrect as old and infirm (and about to die again) instead of young? Do we know what aging even does to a mogu? How long does a mogu even live? There are literally millions of questions that are relevant to these types of inquiries for which there is absolutely no answer, which is yet another reason why its a meaningless inquiry. There is no definition of what Lei Shen can do. There is no definition of what Azshara can do. There are simply no facts with which to base any of these assertions.

    The only remotely objective manifestations of a characters "power" is what is defined by the author. Which means that their "power" is whatever the story needs it to be to be interesting. Azshara is exactly as powerful as she needs to be to be a threatening villian, just like deathwing. Just like Lich King. Because its a story, not ab objective reality.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    I say much more weaker than the Lich King. After all the Lich King had the power to ressurect the Titan Galakrond under his command. Who's to say he can't ressurect any other falled Titan? Personally I believe that the difference between the Lich King and the rest is that the Lich King's power has unlimited potential while the rest are limited.
    Wow wow wow wow.... hold on a second.
    There seems to be something very wrong with your lore man.

    Galakrond was no titan. He was a dragon. While it's still impressive that the lichking tried to ressurrect him, it is nowehere comparable or even save to say he could do the same with a titan.


    Back to topic:

    People tend to forget, that the lichking had several super-uber-oneshot abilities. Not only in game, but also in lore. His power was so vast and insane, that he easily defeated a lot of enemies.
    It's sick that Lei Shen defeated a titanic watcher, and that he was shooting lightning bolts afterwards, but the LK had/has powers far beyond shooting lightning here and there.
    LK > Thuderking all the way

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Far more powerful than Azshara, but less powerful than the LK.
    How can you even compare that?!

    Especially since we haven't even fought Azshara yet at the power she has now?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    I never said it was "wrong" I said it was pointless.

    Science class is thinking that objective facts about a fabricated universe exist in the first place. Does warcraft universe have a graviational constant? Does it obey the laws of thermodynamics? What are the limits of the magic system?

    We have no information whatsoever about Lei Shen. He supposedly died of old age, how come the trolls can even resurrect him? If they do, why does he not resurrect as old and infirm (and about to die again) instead of young? Do we know what aging even does to a mogu? How long does a mogu even live? There are literally millions of questions that are relevant to these types of inquiries for which there is absolutely no answer, which is yet another reason why its a meaningless inquiry. There is no definition of what Lei Shen can do. There is no definition of what Azshara can do. There are simply no facts with which to base any of these assertions.

    The only remotely objective manifestations of a characters "power" is what is defined by the author. Which means that their "power" is whatever the story needs it to be to be interesting. Azshara is exactly as powerful as she needs to be to be a threatening villian, just like deathwing. Just like Lich King. Because its a story, not ab objective reality.
    And that's what we enjoy discussing. The story dictates how powerful a character is. Just because they are story doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss about it.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    I never said it was "wrong" I said it was pointless.

    Science class is thinking that objective facts about a fabricated universe exist in the first place. Does warcraft universe have a graviational constant? Does it obey the laws of thermodynamics? What are the limits of the magic system?

    We have no information whatsoever about Lei Shen. He supposedly died of old age, how come the trolls can even resurrect him? If they do, why does he not resurrect as old and infirm (and about to die again) instead of young? Do we know what aging even does to a mogu? How long does a mogu even live? There are literally millions of questions that are relevant to these types of inquiries for which there is absolutely no answer, which is yet another reason why its a meaningless inquiry. There is no definition of what Lei Shen can do. There is no definition of what Azshara can do. There are simply no facts with which to base any of these assertions.

    The only remotely objective manifestations of a characters "power" is what is defined by the author. Which means that their "power" is whatever the story needs it to be to be interesting. Azshara is exactly as powerful as she needs to be to be a threatening villian, just like deathwing. Just like Lich King. Because its a story, not ab objective reality.
    Every one of those characters could have been portrayed as less powerful and still be threatening.
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  13. #53
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    He is thiiiis powerful!
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    And that's what we enjoy discussing. The story dictates how powerful a character is. Just because they are story doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss about it.
    Thats the point, the story dictates it. It doesn't reason it out. Its not like the story progresses in such a way as to say "Well Azshara has a DBZ power level of 20,000 and Lich King has a DBZ power level of 15,000 so logically in their fight Lich King loses."

    There is no objective definition of the characters. The very fact that this discussion is utterly meaningless is what makes literature great. Because at any given moment you can find out that Azshara can do some new thing you didn't know before and that makes the story compelling. You're taken in, you ask "what can happen next?" Anything! That is what is great.

    It seems utterly foreign and weird to me to want to try to boil down every warcraft villian to their "power levels" and then decide which would win in a fight, as if its a matter of mathematics. its not, its a matter of story (hopefully good story). Not only do I find it weird, I think its also completely meaningless because there are no strict definitions, anyway. And if they did exist then every storyline would simply be resolved by who is stronger/smarter/more cunning. You just go to the flow chart. "Oh, says here that Lei Shen is a power level of 52 million, and Deathwing has a powerlevel of 100 million. I guess we know how the story goes."

  15. #55
    Immortal Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthyphro View Post
    Thats the point, the story dictates it. It doesn't reason it out. Its not like the story progresses in such a way as to say "Well Azshara has a DBZ power level of 20,000 and Lich King has a DBZ power level of 15,000 so logically in their fight Lich King loses."

    There is no objective definition of the characters. The very fact that this discussion is utterly meaningless is what makes literature great. Because at any given moment you can find out that Azshara can do some new thing you didn't know before and that makes the story compelling. You're taken in, you ask "what can happen next?" Anything! That is what is great.

    It seems utterly foreign and weird to me to want to try to boil down every warcraft villian to their "power levels" and then decide which would win in a fight, as if its a matter of mathematics. its not, its a matter of story (hopefully good story). Not only do I find it weird, I think its also completely meaningless because there are no strict definitions, anyway. And if they did exist then every storyline would simply be resolved by who is stronger/smarter/more cunning. You just go to the flow chart. "Oh, says here that Lei Shen is a power level of 52 million, and Deathwing has a powerlevel of 100 million. I guess we know how the story goes."
    I can agree that it can change at any moment, and that we will all never agree on everything, but some people like to discuss this kind of stuff. If you dont thats fine but let us discuss it in peace
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  16. #56
    i'd put him as slightly less powerful than the lich king. i mean when the lich king died, technically so did everyone who killed him...(sort of) until terenas resurrected us.
    the only reason that fight was even winnable was because of Tirion and the Ashbringer
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I can agree that it can change at any moment, and that we will all never agree on everything, but some people like to discuss this kind of stuff. If you dont thats fine but let us discuss it in peace
    I haven't seen much discussion here. Most of what I've seen boils down to "X is stronger than Y" and then someone responds with "WHAT? X is CLEARLY weaker than Y!" which proves my point that there is no way to assess these characters powers in an objective way that furthers any real evaluation.

  18. #58
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    Nah, I wouldn't say shaman. He doesn't ask for the elements' help, he took that power from a titanic watcher (Master Ra/Ra-den), so he's not a shaman.

    What he really is is a really notable warrior that empowered himself with thunder and lightning, stolen from Ra-den.

    About power and shizzles, he could down a titanic keeper without the thunder power, so he was already really strong... I'd say he must be close to Illidan, or maybe even stronger. I mean, we killed him by ourselves, so we can't compare it to LK, that needed a miracle from Tirion and the Light.

    TL;DR: Warrior Thunder-Empowered, on par with Illidan, weaker than LK.

  19. #59
    Pretty funny to see how everyone think he's stronger than Arthas, Illidan, Kael'thas and the likes. Yet, to me (and I don't really know the lore) he seems like a pussy. All those previously named big figures played a huge role in the game and came to interact with the player one way or another. Just based on that (haven't seen him other than LFR) makes me think of him as a disposable boss like Void Reaver.

    At best he is on par with Prince Malchezaar. Just some guy.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    To me he is just a power hungry fag. Fits the shaman indeed, some sort of mad elemental shaman.
    lol wat

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