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  1. #1

    Dev Ideas for Combat on PTR [Future Build]

    Here’s a couple changes we’re going to try, hopefully in the next PTR build:

    Sinister Strike: Weapon damage percent increased from 145% to 190%. Energy cost increased from 40 energy to 50 energy.
    Ruthlessness: This new passive has been added for Combat Rogues at level 32. When you do a finishing move, you have a 20% chance per combo point spent to immediately regain 1 combo point on your current target.


    So the goal here is that, by buffing Sinister Strike and causing it to spend energy faster, that will reduce the button mashing just slightly. Again, we want Combat to be faster paced, it’s just too extreme at the moment. Sinister Strike hitting harder is a nice perk as well.

    However, that by itself would slow down Combat’s combo point generation, which is where Ruthlessness comes in. It should allow you to Eviscerate at about the same rate you do today, despite getting fewer Sinister Strikes in in the same time period. Although it’s configured like a proc, our intent is that Rogues will usually use finishers when it has a 100% chance.
    what do you guys think idk what to think of it sounds like another bandaid fix to me 1 CP extra for a 5 point eviscerate idk what to think of it of course yu have to press the button 1 time less for a 5 point evis does this alsco count toward SnD and Rupture ?

    i think combat will still be spammy
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  2. #2
    I'm more interested in the fact that Eviscerate is getting nerfed, and while Subtlety had Backstab / Hemo buffed to try and compensate, Combat got no compensation at all. Combat is already a weak spec, and I don't know anyone who plays it, and of the few Combat Rogues I see, their damage is generally laughable.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    I'm more interested in the fact that Eviscerate is getting nerfed, and while Subtlety had Backstab / Hemo buffed to try and compensate, Combat got no compensation at all. Combat is already a weak spec, and I don't know anyone who plays it, and of the few Combat Rogues I see, their damage is generally laughable.
    well they buff SS damage i guess that makes up for the 10% nerf ? and since most our damage comes from melee hits and SS cp builder i guess its a relativley good buff to our damage

    the main problem i have with this is that if SS costs 50 energy you will be energy starved if AR and SB are not up which means less eviscs and less CDR on AR + SB i know overcapping is an issues during AR+SB but is this realy a solution to this ? and what are they going to do once we get crappy again aka new expnasion
    Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-07-12 at 09:26 PM.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  4. #4
    The more frequent RvS buffed Sinister Strikes which grant 2 CP's on crit still outweigh the CP's gained from Ruthlessness.

    Take into account also this makes less Bandit's Guile uptime from less frequent Sinister Strikes, as well as slightly increasing cooldown times due to less finishers/restless blades.

  5. #5
    I think this is a great change, assuming they balance C around it (aka, we'll have less BG cycles).

    Note that with the proposed change, you may actually want to use revealing sometimes when you wouldn't on live- note well that revealing will be a better source of BG ticks and CPs per energy, whereas on live it's not. If this ends up being the case it probably won't be intended, but it could be interesting.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    well they buff SS damage i guess that makes up for the 10% nerf ? and since most our damage comes from melee hits and SS cp builder i guess its a relativley good buff to our damage

    the main problem i have with this is that if SS costs 50 energy you will be energy starved if AR and SB are not up which means less eviscs and less CDR on AR + SB i know overcapping is an issues during AR+SB but is this realy a solution to this ? and what are they going to do once we get crappy again aka new expnasion
    oh wait, I thought that was for the next PTR (ie. not 5.4, but beyond). If that is the case great, I was just looking at the patch notes as they sit now and wondering if they were going to do anything for Combat or not. seem kind of whack to do it for Sub and not Combat when most people already find Combat lacking in both PVE and PVP, lol.

  7. #7
    combat dps isnt laughabe but admittedly very spammy this was a try with very few mistakes on the rogues' behalf and we are not too far apart:

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ucdvtbm3i0iwevqj/sum/damageDone/?s=571&e=736

    I'm behind the assa specced ones, but generally it definitely is possible to catch up. ofc, it doesn't always look like that and jin'rokh isn't all that hard to fight
    Last edited by ambelol; 2013-07-12 at 11:33 PM.

  8. #8
    Going to make combat even more boring to level up as than it is now. Also will make it pretty bad until you get ridiculous haste levels so for anyone not up there already there won't be any reason to do so now. Also in SoO take away combat's T15 4 pc and it falls behind. That bonus was a specifically designed for combat band aid to try and get it to keep up with assassination but with out that and no other fix combat falls behind again.

    Combat just needs a flat damage upgrade rather than shifting things around. Sinister strike along with all the other combo point building abilities aren't a huge portion of a rogues dps are are rather low compared to poisons/melee/main gauche so just buffing it's damage and not increasing the energy cost as well as adding ruthlessness would be a nice buff to combat.

    I get a feeling that since combat has been so strong in every other expansion blizzard is afraid of making it the go to spec again.

  9. #9
    Low level rogues are in a bad spot. But that's not even new.

    I will say that having ruth back will probably help a lot with the OOE situation at low levels. I'll also say that even at moderate haste levels (like last tier) combat had some global capping issues at times.


    My biggest gripe here is that sinister will be 50 and mutilate wlil be 55 and that's pretty close. But maybe revealing at around 40 will keep things normal. Plus sub still has cheapy moves.

  10. #10
    Sounds like a good temporary change to me. Even though it's dancing around the real problem, it can prove effective. Here's hoping for a better system next expansion.

  11. #11
    50 seems really, really high for non cooldown situations. I am not a huge fan of this. Its like they are just ignoring the elephant in the room: the cooldowns themselves are the problem. Combat plays fast (in comparison to assassination) all the time yes, but it is only during AR+SB that it really feels too spammy. This is of course assuming they actually adjust the overall dps properly because if they blow that, nothing else matters.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    50 seems really, really high for non cooldown situations. I am not a huge fan of this. Its like they are just ignoring the elephant in the room: the cooldowns themselves are the problem. Combat plays fast (in comparison to assassination) all the time yes, but it is only during AR+SB that it really feels too spammy. This is of course assuming they actually adjust the overall dps properly because if they blow that, nothing else matters.
    exactly i think they are completly clueless of what to do with rogues thats why we dont see anything but band aids, i feel like a mummy already with all those duct tapes attached to my rogues body

    if those ideas dont work out as they expect it to be they probably going to fix it with a glyph so our SS costs 50 energy while under AR effekt
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  13. #13
    The problem isn't the cooldowns, it's the energy bar.

    If combat had a 200 energy bar, we wouldn't have this issue. In fact, Assassination has a much more reasonable time during similar phases, and it DOES have a bigger energy bar.

    My favored solution is to put revealing off the global (and on its own very short timer). Then when you are getting near cap, you spam a quick revealing strike. That means that during that global you spend like 80 energy instead of the normal 40. That would over triple the amount of energy lost in that global. That gives revealing a purpose besides 'maintain this buff k!", and puts efficiency in the hands of the rogue. Sometimes it would be correct to press, other times it would not.


    I don't want to lose the power of AR/Blades. I do think that this tier's thing- where the sinisters go down to a very cheap cost as part of the blade effect- is not well designed. In general though, if you have a cooldown that makes energy and a cooldown that makes your moves make more combo points, and a passive that makes a 5 combo point move energy neutral or positive, then you have to spend a lot of globals doing finishers and you burn energy.

  14. #14
    Keep SS at 40 energy and rework adrenaline rush to increased attack speed but bonus damage instead of energy regen. The only time combat rogues ever complain about energy capping is during adrenaline rush so if you take away the bonus haste their energy rate smooths out. Could also rework the adrenaline rush glyph since as of now it's a must have glyph for combat which blizz has said they don't want "must haves" for specs.

    High haste levels + adrenaline rush has been the bane of combat's game play and it's only going to get worse with more haste. Lowering the GCD during AR is a horrible "fix" because it only works with people with very low latency and people with higher latency (think of them Aussies playing in the US or even east coast playing on a west coast server get hurt by this) are hurt by this rather than helped.

    Boost combat's damage, rework adrenaline rush and I think that'll fix a lot of combats issues as well as bring it up to assassination's level.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    This will add more down time and is a considerable nerf to Bandits Guile.
    I don't like this change one bit.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    This will add more down time and is a considerable nerf to Bandits Guile.
    I don't like this change one bit.
    its not set in stone tho its still just an idea from the devs which seems to be bad the devs need to sit down with the rogue community and maybe do a brainstorm on how we the rogue community want our combat spec to look like and others specs of course. and not just blindly guessing what might be a good idea
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  17. #17
    It's going to have a pretty massive rippled effect. That's for damn sure.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    its not set in stone tho its still just an idea from the devs which seems to be bad the devs need to sit down with the rogue community and maybe do a brainstorm on how we the rogue community want our combat spec to look like and others specs of course. and not just blindly guessing what might be a good idea
    like they did during the MoP-beta? sry, but i lost all hope since GCs post on those beta-forums. the devs are clueless when it comes to the rogue-class, and this idea just proves it. upping SS energy and reintroducing Ruth? "hey, look at that, we fixed your energy-capping issues!!!" .... i mean,.... really?!
    bandaids, bandaids, and yet another bandaid.... please god, make it stop....

    I like Verain's idea (putting RvS off the GCD) much, much, much, much better. and it'd fit so perfectly with combat's pace and concept. bute the devs never get tired of their boring way of dealing with the rogue class....

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by finn View Post
    like they did during the MoP-beta? sry, but i lost all hope since GCs post on those beta-forums. the devs are clueless when it comes to the rogue-class, and this idea just proves it. upping SS energy and reintroducing Ruth? "hey, look at that, we fixed your energy-capping issues!!!" .... i mean,.... really?!
    bandaids, bandaids, and yet another bandaid.... please god, make it stop....

    I like Verain's idea (putting RvS off the GCD) much, much, much, much better. and it'd fit so perfectly with combat's pace and concept. bute the devs never get tired of their boring way of dealing with the rogue class....
    well if rev strike should be reworkd how verein suggested they should up the damage for combat by 35% which we lose since we cant keep rev strike up as a debuff id also like to see rev strike do massive damage if it costs that much maybe rev strike should only be activeable during AR only to prevent exploiting it pvp ? it wouldn't change our rotation much i think you would basicly just use rev strike as a massive damaging skills and energy dumper during AR which seems to be the source of this capping problem and since you dont want to mess with it i think that is a good solution
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  20. #20
    Epic! OneSent's Avatar
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    Well, it's good to see that they are at least on the right path.

    Combat is and has been since Cataclysm, waayyy too spammy. Increasing the energy cost and damage done by our builders and/or finishers is the best way to go about fixing that without really negatively affecting other aspects of the class.

    The next step should be to organize some of the more "clunkier" mechanics of the spec.

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