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  1. #61
    The problem is PARTLY AR. Adrenaline Rush, at its core, is meant to double your playstyle. This means that in general, you should have half your globals open. You can mitigate this by dropping to low energy values BEFORE pressing AR- back in the old days before we had to build shit around AQ color scarabs, you'd want to be at like 10-20 energy with 1-2 combo points when you would press AR.

    The glyph where the GCD becomes 0.7 Seconds is an attempt to address this- it recognizes that in modern WoW, energy can't just be fucking DOUBLED without a problem, and as such it creates a bigger space to play in.


    I think, overall, that this is fine. I like Adrenaline Rush. I think it should give you a bigger energy cap for a little bit, or automatically trigger a 20 energy suboptimal move off global, or there should be a move you can press off the global during it. I don't want to give up the double part, and I really like the way it looks with blades.

    But with the T15 thing, you have a half second GCD, which should make a big difference (and sometimes does), but the core problem is that you are making 2 combo points (sometimes three) with every sinister, and the sinisters cost like 24 energy, and your energy regen has been doubled to more than that. That's three things: doubled regen, moves cost around half, moves make more combo points (meaning that eviscerate, which is energy positive, happens every 2-3 globals instead of every 8 or something). That stack is why it's dumb, and the below things are cooler than nerfing AR:

    1)- Capping energy deals burst damage to the target. The burst damage wouldn't be super efficient, and would knock off around 20 energy.
    2)- Energy bar length grows at 10 / second during AR, and shrinks at 10 / second when it ends. Or just combat has a bigger energy bar.
    3)- A move can be used off global, such as revealing strike. This would likely solve the issue best.
    4)- We have access to a different move that costs a lot of energy, does more damage, but is generally not that efficient.

  2. #62
    I like the idea of an off-gcd revealing strike. put a 10 sec cd on it, or more... or less... the issue isn't how often we can use it, it's how quickly we can apply it after using another special.

  3. #63
    I do not like the off-gcd revealing strike idea.

    If I wanted an off-the-gcd resource dump, I'd play a warrior.

    Such mechanics should not be necessary for a resource-constrained class--it indicates a design shortcoming.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-07-17 at 08:17 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The problem is PARTLY AR. Adrenaline Rush, at its core, is meant to double your playstyle. This means that in general, you should have half your globals open. You can mitigate this by dropping to low energy values BEFORE pressing AR- back in the old days before we had to build shit around AQ color scarabs, you'd want to be at like 10-20 energy with 1-2 combo points when you would press AR.

    The glyph where the GCD becomes 0.7 Seconds is an attempt to address this- it recognizes that in modern WoW, energy can't just be fucking DOUBLED without a problem, and as such it creates a bigger space to play in.


    I think, overall, that this is fine. I like Adrenaline Rush. I think it should give you a bigger energy cap for a little bit, or automatically trigger a 20 energy suboptimal move off global, or there should be a move you can press off the global during it. I don't want to give up the double part, and I really like the way it looks with blades.

    But with the T15 thing, you have a half second GCD, which should make a big difference (and sometimes does), but the core problem is that you are making 2 combo points (sometimes three) with every sinister, and the sinisters cost like 24 energy, and your energy regen has been doubled to more than that. That's three things: doubled regen, moves cost around half, moves make more combo points (meaning that eviscerate, which is energy positive, happens every 2-3 globals instead of every 8 or something). That stack is why it's dumb, and the below things are cooler than nerfing AR:

    1)- Capping energy deals burst damage to the target. The burst damage wouldn't be super efficient, and would knock off around 20 energy.
    2)- Energy bar length grows at 10 / second during AR, and shrinks at 10 / second when it ends. Or just combat has a bigger energy bar.
    3)- A move can be used off global, such as revealing strike. This would likely solve the issue best.
    4)- We have access to a different move that costs a lot of energy, does more damage, but is generally not that efficient.
    Would have to be an ability that has a high energy cost cause other wise it would just be macroed in with sinister strike and create the problem that warriors had with macroing in heroic strike to all their abilities which blizzard moved away from.

    Could also solve the problem by changing the way that combat regens energy. Add a passive energy regen to rupture like assassination, SnD like sub or even get rid of rupture for combat, add in new ability that has a similar function but regens combat's energy. Could nerf combat's haste energy regen to compensate or do some along the lines of haste being an attractive stat for combat but not the Jesus stat like it is now and have combat regen energy through both haste as well as ability x. This would help solve how bad combat feels leveling up as well at lower gear levels when they don't have the insane haste that they're getting now. One of the biggest problems of combat is that it doesn't have that passive energy regen that assassination/sub have which makes it a pretty bad spec to play until you get really really good haste... which then leads to the problem of AR energy capping.

    Haste is a good stat for combat since it ups melee damage, main gauche, and poisons. Raising energy levels as much as it does makes adrenaline rush get into bad situations with energy capping. If haste still performed as it did for the passive damage increase with lower energy levels but that energy regen was supplemented by a passive effect then adrenaline rush wouldn't have the side effect of energy capping/getting super spammy and needing to lower the gcd on it (which creates even more problems).

    But either way combat still needs a base line damage increase.

  5. #65
    What if they buffed mastery for the spec? If it was good enough to become the most desirable stat, haste would go down, damage would go up or stay the same. People wouldn't feel the need to just gem for fullout haste past the point of knowing what's going on with the rotation.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Would have to be an ability that has a high energy cost cause other wise it would just be macroed in with sinister strike and create the problem that warriors had with macroing in heroic strike to all their abilities which blizzard moved away from.

    Could also solve the problem by changing the way that combat regens energy. Add a passive energy regen to rupture like assassination, SnD like sub or even get rid of rupture for combat, add in new ability that has a similar function but regens combat's energy. Could nerf combat's haste energy regen to compensate or do some along the lines of haste being an attractive stat for combat but not the Jesus stat like it is now and have combat regen energy through both haste as well as ability x. This would help solve how bad combat feels leveling up as well at lower gear levels when they don't have the insane haste that they're getting now. One of the biggest problems of combat is that it doesn't have that passive energy regen that assassination/sub have which makes it a pretty bad spec to play until you get really really good haste... which then leads to the problem of AR energy capping.

    Haste is a good stat for combat since it ups melee damage, main gauche, and poisons. Raising energy levels as much as it does makes adrenaline rush get into bad situations with energy capping. If haste still performed as it did for the passive damage increase with lower energy levels but that energy regen was supplemented by a passive effect then adrenaline rush wouldn't have the side effect of energy capping/getting super spammy and needing to lower the gcd on it (which creates even more problems).

    But either way combat still needs a base line damage increase.
    I'd rather not have this, it will just make the spec feel even more like Assa/Sub than it is, passive static regen is boring, having to react is what makes it fun, but when the player and server don't agree is when the issues ensue the most with energy/ap/cp overflow.

    As it stands right now, I'd take a bigger energy bar AND an energy dump ability (Execute style ability: The more energy, the more dmg but not efficient before X energy regen (Say, the levels you'd get at during AR))
    Something along the lines of pretty much this: If you got 20 energy/sec, it will be better, if lower it will be worse than SS to put it bluntly (I put 20 since that's reasonable to lower gearlevels, obviously this can be tweaked)

    Oh, and as a response to Kulestu: I like the stat interaction with the specs now, Assa is Mastery, Combat is Haste and Sub is...uh, not really 100% sure lol.
    There needs to be some specs that utilizes Haste as their primary spec, most classes/specs right now only do it because of RPPM trinkets/metagem interacting well with it.
    Even for Combat Haste don't become absurdly OP before you got that.
    Last edited by zerynax; 2013-07-17 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #67
    I agree, but haste is just SO GOOD for combat, if mastery and crit got slight nerfs, it might reduce some of the absurdity of haste scaling. All I know is that it needs to be slowed down a little, but that's going to require some pretty big changes to the spec overall. Slow it down even a little and bandit's guile and whatever the passive is that reduces CDs are going to need rebalancing, as well.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by zerynax View Post
    I'd rather not have this, it will just make the spec feel even more like Assa/Sub than it is, passive static regen is boring, having to react is what makes it fun, but when the player and server don't agree is when the issues ensue the most with energy/ap/cp overflow.

    As it stands right now, I'd take a bigger energy bar AND an energy dump ability (Execute style ability: The more energy, the more dmg but not efficient before X energy regen (Say, the levels you'd get at during AR))
    Something along the lines of pretty much this: If you got 20 energy/sec, it will be better, if lower it will be worse than SS to put it bluntly (I put 20 since that's reasonable to lower gearlevels, obviously this can be tweaked)

    Oh, and as a response to Kulestu: I like the stat interaction with the specs now, Assa is Mastery, Combat is Haste and Sub is...uh, not really 100% sure lol.
    There needs to be some specs that utilizes Haste as their primary spec, most classes/specs right now only do it because of RPPM trinkets/metagem interacting well with it.
    Even for Combat Haste don't become absurdly OP before you got that.
    Was thinking more for a leveling process/low gear level which combat is absolutely horrid at. Combat used to be my fav spec to level as but now I find sub or even assassination to be an easier spec to level with since they don't have the energy regen problems that combat does.

    Hell, I leveled my rogue as combat and it wasn't too bad just felt so slow and then doing dailies and questing as combat with a ~463 heroic dungeon ilv was one of the worst experiences I ever had which caused me to really not play my rogue for much of MSV. It's just a bad mechanic in my opinion. It' snot like you get gear and then as you gear up you feel stronger. It's more that until you get gear you feel like wet noodle.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    I agree, but haste is just SO GOOD for combat, if mastery and crit got slight nerfs, it might reduce some of the absurdity of haste scaling. All I know is that it needs to be slowed down a little, but that's going to require some pretty big changes to the spec overall. Slow it down even a little and bandit's guile and whatever the passive is that reduces CDs are going to need rebalancing, as well.
    how would nerfs to crit and mastery affekt haste value ? crit and mastery are by far the worst stats for combat to have and you want to nerf them ? its like beating up your enemy while he's bleeding out already and cant do anything. this would make haste even more valuable
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  10. #70
    I know your pain Warmaster, been running Combat strong in the majority of MoP (A tad based on horrible weapon luck aswell) with the exception of fights with many adds to take down quick or alot of time unable to hit the boss.

    Yes, the static regen would be nice for leveling/low gearlevels, but then you hit 90 and you will sit there feeling like this is just another spinoff of Assa/Sub.
    They could just change the glyph I forgot the name of that refreshes SnD and Recu when you kill a target to also give, say 50 energy or something so you at least get something to start on the next mobs with.

    And to be frank, I felt t14 as Combat with the exception of the insane cheese on Garalon pre-BF nerf and Stone Guards where it just....faceraped anything was quite abit like the RPPM mechanics of the trinket now when it comes to energy:
    Good luck: Many Main Gauge hits and OH attacks that procced Combat Potency and gave energy, keeping the rotation fluid and not starved.(This now also includes trinkets/metagem)
    Bad luck: Barely any extra attacks and Combat Potency procs, bad RvS procs and you were utterly useless. I did feel like we were an experiment for RPPM mechanics lol.

    What I like so much about Combat is that you actually FEEL more powerful when you get better gear since everything goes up, more energy, more dps, more procs and so on.

    Sub and Assa is for the most part just....bigger numbers.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    how would nerfs to crit and mastery affekt haste value ? crit and mastery are by far the worst stats for combat to have and you want to nerf them ? its like beating up your enemy while he's bleeding out already and cant do anything. this would make haste even more valuable
    Well that's unfortunate. I meant to say buffs.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Haste is a good stat for combat since it ups melee damage, main gauche, and poisons. Raising energy levels as much as it does makes adrenaline rush get into bad situations with energy capping.
    Though energy capping is not a bad thing if its unavoidable. You don't necessarily lose anything from capping energy if you do everything correctly and still cap energy. The dps can only be balanced on how much energy you can possible spend.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    What if they buffed mastery for the spec? If it was good enough to become the most desirable stat, haste would go down, damage would go up or stay the same. People wouldn't feel the need to just gem for fullout haste past the point of knowing what's going on with the rotation.
    The problem with buffing Combat's Mastery is that you also end up buffing Combat's Haste. If it were up to me, I'd give MG a set, passive percent of proccing and give Combat a Mastery that scaled less with Haste.

    They do need to make Revealing Strike slightly more interesting, though. Currently, it merely acts a CP generator that you hit once every 18 seconds to apply a debuff that needs to be kept up. I liked it better during Cata when it was something you actually had to react to and throw up when you were at 4 CPs.

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