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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Raid gear is optional too. So is it OK that they sell that?

    And if you don't actually mean mandatory and optional (despite the fact you used those exact words), and actually mean cosmetic and non-cosmetic, then what is the limit of cosmetic microtransactions that you find acceptable?

    raid gear is mandatory to raid properly/effectively.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    raid gear is mandatory to raid properly/effectively.
    So how do world first guilds raid in the first few weeks of new tiers? Raid gear is NOT mandatory. Many people raid without the best raid gear, like trials to raid guilds. Raid gear is helpful. And I think you should update your words so that they articulate what you really mean.

  3. #663
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    So how do world first guilds raid in the first few weeks of new tiers? Raid gear is NOT mandatory. Many people raid without the best raid gear, like trials to raid guilds. Raid gear is helpful. And I think you should update your words so that they articulate what you really mean.
    You could argue that raiding itself is optional.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    So how do world first guilds raid in the first few weeks of new tiers? Raid gear is NOT mandatory. Many people raid without the best raid gear, like trials to raid guilds. Raid gear is helpful. And I think you should update your words so that they articulate what you really mean.
    yeah so let the "world first guilds" raid in PvP gear and tell me how that goes for them.
    better yet, let hem wear tuxedos costumes to make it more "stylish"

    raid gear is mandatory to raid properly, whether you like it or not, (skills also i guess)
    the question (how much raid gear level is required?) ill let you do the speculation depending on a few guilds that are fully heroic geared ready for the next raid tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    You could argue that raiding itself is optional.
    by his logic, the entire game is optional

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    What we do know is that game has lost 1/3rd of the player base since the web store was added. We just have no clue how many walked away cause of the turn from a subscriber based game into Web store based game.
    Wait, I was told by many many reliable sources here on MMO-Champion that all the people who left, did it because of LFR and because Blizzard dumb the game down. Now we're changing it to the web store ?

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    yeah so let the "world first guilds" raid in PvP gear and tell me how that goes for them.
    better yet, let hem wear tuxedos costumes to make it more "stylish"

    raid gear is mandatory to raid properly, whether you like it or not, (skills also i guess)
    the question (how much raid gear level is required?) ill let you do the speculation depending on a few guilds that are fully heroic geared ready for the next raid tier.

    - - - Updated - - -



    by his logic, the entire game is optional
    It's not mandatory. Your PvP gear example proves nothing. Some guilds probably could raid in PvP gear, hence proving that raid gear is not mandatory. Some raid guilds can raid by taking off 1 piece of raid gear, again proving it's not mandatory. It's helpful, not mandatory. It is possible to raid without the best raid gear, or having 1 gear slot empty.

    Many people also don't raid, which again shows that raid gear is not mandatory, as you said. So you've misspoke and should correct your statement in order to explain yourself better: that raid gear provides a tangible, non-cosmetic benefit, and selling raid gear would be selling power.

  7. #667
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Wait, I was told by many many reliable sources here on MMO-Champion that all the people who left, did it because of LFR and because Blizzard dumb the game down. Now we're changing it to the web store ?
    Nope, it's what ever reason they can use to fit the current argument.

    Rarely updated...

  8. #668
    Herald of the Titans Haidaes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    You could argue that raiding itself is optional.
    That is the whole point in the end, isn't it? Everything is optional, what matters is what you expect to be part of the package. If the package does no longer suit someone, people should do the only thing they can do and that has any meaning (no threads in forums do not have a meaning), vote with your wallet! I for one think it is an etremyl shady buisness pratice on blizzards end and will take appropriate steps in the future.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2013-07-15 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    It's not mandatory. Your PvP gear example proves nothing. Some guilds probably could raid in PvP gear, hence proving that raid gear is not mandatory. Some raid guilds can raid by taking off 1 piece of raid gear, again proving it's not mandatory. It's helpful, not mandatory. It is possible to raid without the best raid gear, or having 1 gear slot empty.

    Many people also don't raid, which again shows that raid gear is not mandatory, as you said. So you've misspoke and should correct your statement in order to explain yourself better: that raid gear provides a tangible, non-cosmetic benefit, and selling raid gear would be selling power.
    I don't need to explain myself any better than I already did.
    You say because many people don't raid, this shows that raid gear is not mandatory (as I've said??) O_o
    What part of me saying (Raid gear is mandatory to raid properly/effectively) is hard for you to grasp ?
    Now you're just being ignorant really.

    The entire game is optional, BUT if you want to do something properly in the game you need to bring what it requires
    Time, gear, skill, knowledge, w/e. thats what makes them mandatory to succeed in the given activity (PvP PvE etc)
    Last edited by Gamez; 2013-07-15 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #670
    The Patient
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    The main problem I see is that at this time there are 2 models for MMO-RPGs: Pay per month and Free to play.
    In free to play MMOs, we only pay for items, stats, cosmetic stuff, etc, and we choose when we are going to pay and if we want to pay. Payed MMOs on the other hand, are opened to all their customers, so they just need to play to get what they want / need.

    WoW is both at the same time. Not only Pets mounts and cosmetic items, they sell services that could be done for free, such as realm transfer, faction change, guild transfer, name change, etc... So we already pay a monthly fee, in a scenario of decline of subscription based MMOs, and we have to pay extra cash if we want other services / items.

    Why do you think it took years to come up with a solution to Dead Servers? Because realm transfer was a good income. Why do you think they announced the "virtual realms" after a 50% discount?

    IMHO, Blizzard must make up their mind if WoW is going to be a free o payed game, because it's getting more and more expensive.
    Of course you don't "need" new helms, new mounts, name changes, new pets... But a great part o WoW's experience comes from cosmetic stuff, look at the transmog feature and how popular it is!

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Wait, I was told by many many reliable sources here on MMO-Champion that all the people who left, did it because of LFR and because Blizzard dumb the game down. Now we're changing it to the web store ?
    Since when has MMO-Champion been a reliable source ? It's a fan site - and in no way interested to get actual facts. No- one knows why some ppl decide to quit the game. I dont know it - you don't know so stop acting like the change from subscription based game only to added webstore has not had any say in the decline.

    What we CAN say for sure that the game has lost alot of subs EVEN tho Blizzard has had Webstore to get extra income to create better and more interesting content in WOW. They failed doing that. And they failed big time when you look at pathes like 4.1 that were just reworked dungeons followed with new webstore items.

    And this is exactly why ppl have a reason to be concerned. If Blizzard can make more money by putting one or two items in web store (or ingame store that is now planned) why on earth should they then even bother to actually create content in the first place?

    I think it's very obvious now that BLizzard are seeing they are unable to create the content at the speed they have promised. Their way to get out of it is to make the revenues through other means and let the game suffer. They can not say that the game is not getting enough revenues. Quarterly reports show that the game is one of the highest earning game on the market.

    If Blizzard wants to change their business model then fine. They can come out and say it. But they CAN not be true to their subscribers if they are adding ingame shop. Thats just a fact cause then they are breaking the principle of everyone playing on equal grounds. That turns the game into exactly the same as F2P games are doing and should be a clear sign for Blizzard to stop demanding players to also pay sub fees if they are no longer working on the sub based principle.

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    yeah so let the "world first guilds" raid in PvP gear and tell me how that goes for them.
    better yet, let hem wear tuxedos costumes to make it more "stylish"

    raid gear is mandatory to raid properly, whether you like it or not, (skills also i guess)
    the question (how much raid gear level is required?) ill let you do the speculation depending on a few guilds that are fully heroic geared ready for the next raid tier.

    - - - Updated - - -



    by his logic, the entire game is optional
    Why yes it is, isn't it. Lets just put EVERYTHING up on the store ...

  13. #673
    I don't mind the Store items as long as they are cosmetic and don't hinder in-game content or progression.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by ezola View Post
    I sure as hell dont hope they will add items in the store, other than vanity stuff.. Other than that, im fine with blizzard taking $$ for whatever.. No one is forced to play the game if they dont have the money for it.-...
    Yeah lets hope they add the new player models to the store. $25 per character to upgrade. It is only cosmetic after all.
    I'm a Forsaken. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Yeah lets hope they add the new player models to the store. $25 per character to upgrade. It is only cosmetic after all.
    Wow, you are even more evil than me. I was thinking along the line of buy once and it's available to all across the entire account.

    Maybe they should even make it time limited. $5 and the look will last for 30 days. $25 for a permanent upgrade.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    by his logic, the entire game is optional
    And now you understand why people are so up in arms about some shiny helmets. It all comes full circle!

    The argument that they are optional can be turned around and used as an excuse for why selling raid gear or any other in game item is okay. "But it's optional!"

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempeste View Post
    And now you understand why people are so up in arms about some shiny helmets. It all comes full circle!

    The argument that they are optional can be turned around and used as an excuse for why selling raid gear or any other in game item is okay. "But it's optional!"
    People on MMO-C don't understand what optional means. They think if they want to do something, then it makes it mandatory. The only thing that is mandatory in wow is paying the sub fee. Everything else is optional. I can choose to raid today, or I can choose not to. These are options. Just like how I can choose to buy items on the shop, or I can choose not to. Using the "optional" argument should apply to everything in wow, including raids, quests and gear.

  18. #678
    OP you are wrong and here is why. Blizzard's policy says our subscription is payment to rent a character and play true. However what it doesn't say is that subscription money from the players has paid for every single expansion in the game. Subscription money pays for development time of everything they do, including making other games that have nothing to do with WoW (Titan), and players are rightfully still jaded about that because we haven't seen any results yet (Diablo failed, Starcraft is a different genre). Our subscription money pays for the development time of the Blizzard Store and items. See where I'm going with this? It doesn't matter if you pay for a Blizzard Store item or not, the fact of the matter is your subscription is being taxed for the development of those items and not the further development of items obtainable in-game.

    It doesn't matter how mundane or "optional" a store item is. It doesn't matter if it's a grey quality piece of dog poop that vendors for one copper. The fact is you paid for that already. You paid for the artist to draw the poop icon, and the 3D artist to make the mesh and texture of the poop, and the lead designer writing the silly flavor text for the poop. Now you must pay extra or else you can't use that poop.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by TVLodge View Post
    I don't mind the Store items as long as they are cosmetic and don't hinder in-game content or progression.
    Your a person that consider progression to be based on stats.

    There are ppl that consider progression to be based on cosmetic items. If Blizzard locks those players out from getting items that are only available by paying extra... then the game is no longer a true subscription based game.

    All content - including cosmetic items, pets and mounts SHOULD be available through means of playing the game. My suggestion if Blizzard is gonna move those Webstore items into ingame store is that players will be given ways to also get those items in other ways than just paying real money for them. Thats just fair if they are putting them ingame.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Superchief View Post
    OP you are wrong and here is why. Blizzard's policy says our subscription is payment to rent a character and play true. However what it doesn't say is that subscription money from the players has paid for every single expansion in the game. Subscription money pays for development time of everything they do, including making other games that have nothing to do with WoW (Titan), and players are rightfully still jaded about that because we haven't seen any results yet (Diablo failed, Starcraft is a different genre). Our subscription money pays for the development time of the Blizzard Store and items. See where I'm going with this? It doesn't matter if you pay for a Blizzard Store item or not, the fact of the matter is your subscription is being taxed for the development of those items and not the further development of items obtainable in-game.

    It doesn't matter how mundane or "optional" a store item is. It doesn't matter if it's a grey quality piece of dog poop that vendors for one copper. The fact is you paid for that already. You paid for the artist to draw the poop icon, and the 3D artist to make the mesh and texture of the poop, and the lead designer writing the silly flavor text for the poop. Now you must pay extra or else you can't use that poop.
    Agree

    Games that use Ingame stores DO NOT charge players subscription to log into the game. They use the money they get for those microtransaction items to GUARANTY that those players have free access to the game whenever they want.

    Blizzard can not have it both ways. Its as simple as that.

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    This definitely needed it's own thread yeah..
    yea it does, because somehow so many people think that you pay the monthly fee for epics and seeing the full content. No wonder this game is dying with people thinking they're entitled to everything by paying a monthly fee and hard work and dedication don't matter at all.

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