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  1. #1

    MM Hunters and why nobody cares

    Whenever I see discussion of hunter changes, competitiveness, or dps, it only ever seems to cover two things: 1) PvP, and 2) BM

    SV so far as I'm aware, is about on par with BM for PvE DPS, but MM is a lot more behind than it has any right to be.

    Now, I'm not see good with the meta-game, and I've been told various things by different sources, including one source saying that MM just isn't MEANT to be a competitive spec, which is perhaps the most absurd thing I've heared yet.

    Additionally I've been told multiple times to just switch to BM, and while I like the prospect of higher DPS, I shouldn't have to switch my spec to get that. I should be able to play the spec I enjoy, and not have to suffer for it.

    So I'd just like to ask. Why is MM ignored despite its problems?

  2. #2
    Only Blizzard knows. My guess is MM is in need of such a huge revamp that Blizzard already gave up on it because they know tweaking numbers just won't do.

    They will probably work on it for the next expansion.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    The difference in PvE between MM and the other specs is so small that anyone outside of the top5 guilds in their respective regions shouldn't care. If your guild is pressuring you to switch to another spec because they "believe" it is so much better, then you either need to educate them, or prove them wrong.
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-07-13 at 11:05 PM.

  4. #4
    The problem is alot more simple than you might think. If a dps class with one role (or one type of dps) has a decent spec, blizz devs prioritize the other two specs less than every other spec in the game. with 11 classes and 33 specs, the bottom of the list are the 8 pure dps specs that aren't top.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiricine View Post
    The problem is alot more simple than you might think. If a dps class with one role (or one type of dps) has a decent spec, blizz devs prioritize the other two specs less than every other spec in the game. with 11 classes and 33 specs, the bottom of the list are the 8 pure dps specs that aren't top.
    Warlocks says "HI!".

    The reason "no one cares" about MM is simple - if the spec isn't competitive, there's no reason to discuss it. BM and Surv are middle of the pack right now, we have no utility, and we're getting dragged around by the ear on PTR with changes right now to fix PvP, while those of us who wants to do well in PvE can just sit and watch the changes with dread. We've been promised a number pass, and even though they apparantly just did one on warlocks (notice all the fluctuating between affliction damage spells and coefficients?), the time hasn't come for us yet. For all we know, MM will end up being the strongest next tier after the numbers have been adjusted. But untill that is the case, you won't see anyone discuss MM because we'd prefer the two half-viable specs we HAVE to be improved to an extent where we're not dead weight compared to any other ranged class, rather than have a THIRD spec be mediocre.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Isn't another reason why MM is sub-par at best, because secondary stats are really poor for MM? Crit is worse for MM than for BM since it increases pet damage by a lot, Haste barely does anything aswell and mastery is pretty pathetic aswell (even though at the end of a raid, wild quiver did like 25% of my damage, "yay").

    I don't even know what MM's "niche" is supposed to be besides wild quiver, which is an extremely boring mastery if you ask me compared to other classes their mastery (WW mastery is fun IMO until next patch).

    Like I said, secondary stats for MM just seem so lackluster compared to other classes who are incredibly balanced when it comes to secondary stats, for example shadow priests, destruction warlocks, and BM hunters aren't that bad either.

  7. #7
    I don't understand where people think that MM deals 30-40k less dps or enough to not be worth using at all. You aim for about 9.09% haste for 1 second Steadies. This allows you to pile on the aimed shots at above 80% boss hp. If you don't do this then yea dps is going to be severely behind. I'm easily keeping up in dps against so many classes that out gear me by a ton simply by managing focus and maximizing CD's and Chimera shots. For aoe heavy fights yea MM is well behind but taking the thrill of the hunt talent only makes me do about 20k less dps in aoe needed fights.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by redrobin3 View Post
    I don't understand where people think that MM deals 30-40k less dps or enough to not be worth using at all. You aim for about 9.09% haste for 1 second Steadies. This allows you to pile on the aimed shots at above 80% boss hp. If you don't do this then yea dps is going to be severely behind. I'm easily keeping up in dps against so many classes that out gear me by a ton simply by managing focus and maximizing CD's and Chimera shots. For aoe heavy fights yea MM is well behind but taking the thrill of the hunt talent only makes me do about 20k less dps in aoe needed fights.
    You're doing well and keeping up as MM because you are a better player than them.

    If you went BM or Surv you would be beating them by even more yet.

  9. #9
    Nobody cares about MM because it's a subpar spec, if they buff the damage people will use it, simple as that.

    It was exactly the same in Cataclysm, MM was dominating and saw no reason to change in 4.3, yet Survival took the top spot there, even though it lost all its niches to MM, it was still better.
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  10. #10
    I don't understand where people think that MM deals 30-40k less dps
    Because it does...

    or enough to not be worth using at all
    because it is...

    Seems I have been on the anecdotal evidence crusade for 3 months now so I guess I will continue.

    @redrobin3 - The numbers you're doing are meaningless in the way you are looking at them. You have to look at them in context and context is very hard for many to understand and more importantly for many to judge.

    The context: its about the skill level of the people around you.

    Example: A world ranking top 200 player goes and raids with a normal guild, he is going to do 50k or more than anyone of the people around him due to skill,
    If a world ranking top 200 player goes and raids with Method, he is going to get beat by 50k by everyone around him due to skill.

    Make sense?

    *50k number is just a number*

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Because it does...



    because it is...

    Seems I have been on the anecdotal evidence crusade for 3 months now so I guess I will continue.

    @redrobin3 - The numbers you're doing are meaningless in the way you are looking at them. You have to look at them in context and context is very hard for many to understand and more importantly for many to judge.

    The context: its about the skill level of the people around you.

    Example: A world ranking top 200 player goes and raids with a normal guild, he is going to do 50k or more than anyone of the people around him due to skill,
    If a world ranking top 200 player goes and raids with Method, he is going to get beat by 50k by everyone around him due to skill.

    Make sense?

    *50k number is just a number*
    Actually, the DPS is all the same with top 50 guilds(all have BiS gear and know how to play), but the ACTUAL difference is with the teamplay factor and how they develop strategies to defeat said boss as World First(World First Sha of Fear HC, a few people stood at the Panda platforms to aid DPS).

    Being a top guild is figuring out a strategy that WORKS and then executing it.

    DPS doesn't matter that much unless it's a very tight DPS check(eg. Baleroc/Ultraxion), I do wish we could get more DPS check fights for Heroic, first times an average heroic raiding guild gets to those 5% wipes the boss goes berserk, then just refine the execution and it's a kill.

  12. #12
    Actually, the DPS is all the same with top 50 guilds
    Um no.

    but the ACTUAL difference is with the teamplay factor and how they develop strategies to defeat said boss as World First(World First Sha of Fear HC, a few people stood at the Panda platforms to aid DPS).
    What are you talking about?
    The discussion is why MM is so bad, someone said it wasn't bad because he tops meters in his guild, Jax was pointing out the fact that the hunters experience is anecdotal at best because of the lack of talent around him. Not really sure what crusade your on here but can we stay on topic?

    DPS doesn't matter that much unless it's a very tight DPS check
    Again, I am not sure where your coming from or going to but I guess I'll bite?

    Every fight has dps checks so I am not sure what your talking about. They may not seem to be dps checks because they are dps checks inside a bigger mechanic but they are none the less, dps checks.
    I would beg to differ that dps doesn't matter on a different level: Truefire and others have pointed out that dps does matter during progression, it matters a ton. It is one of the main factors in class stacking and why hunters have been so bad for progression recently. Yes utility is a strong second but if you're dying to a boss during progression because you cant get xxx mob down in time before the boss transitions and it is destroying the raid, well dps sure does matter then and every other time.
    Last edited by Larry01; 2013-07-14 at 06:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    Um no.
    I would beg to differ that dps doesn't matter on a different level: Truefire and others have pointed out that dps does matter during progression, it matters a ton. It is one of the main factors in class stacking and why hunters have been so bad for progression recently.
    Unless you are in a top5 guild, it does not matter to the extent most people claim. The race for top rankings is a completely different game then those who have just recently, or have yet to, clear ToT.

  14. #14
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    Whole MoP has been BM based which kinda sucks.. They really should start to buff SV and especially MM because I only see buff patch notes for BM.

    ''Talking with several hunters, agreement that Readiness going away is fine if other spells are adjusted as well.
    We're thinking 2 charges on Deterrence and Disengage, then other buffs to things like Kill Command.''

    I don't get this.. BM is already best pve and pvp spect so why they keep buffing best spect even more? Where is explosion shot,aimed shot and chimera shot buffs? Still waiting SV and MM patch notes..

  15. #15
    Unless you are in a top5 guild, it does not matter to the extent most people claim.
    I am not in a top 5 guild but I am in a guild that battles for server firsts and I can tell you unequivocally that the dps of our members matters during that race, it matters a great deal.
    We routinely sit people, bring in subs and alts as needed to make fights easier. Technically you could say dps doesn't matter in a raid because we do not let it come to that, any dps that isn't doing a min of 85% of max do not get into the raid to begin with. So I guess your right, in a skewed way.

    OT: We do not let our hunter play MM that's for sure, (yes we only carry one) maybe 2 fights he goes SV other than that's its BM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Evix View Post
    Whole MoP has been BM based which kinda sucks.. They really should start to buff SV and especially MM because I only see buff patch notes for BM.

    ''Talking with several hunters, agreement that Readiness going away is fine if other spells are adjusted as well.
    We're thinking 2 charges on Deterrence and Disengage, then other buffs to things like Kill Command.''

    I don't get this.. BM is already best pve and pvp spect so why they keep buffing best spect even more? Where is explosion shot,aimed shot and chimera shot buffs? Still waiting SV and MM patch notes..
    I kind of assumed "things like Kill Command" to mean exactly what it says. Explosive Shot and Chimera should qualify.

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  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    I am not in a top 5 guild but I am in a guild that battles for server firsts and I can tell you unequivocally that the dps of our members matters during that race, it matters a great deal.
    We routinely sit people, bring in subs and alts as needed to make fights easier. Technically you could say dps doesn't matter in a raid because we do not let it come to that, any dps that isn't doing a min of 85% of max do not get into the raid to begin with. So I guess your right, in a skewed way.

    OT: We do not let our hunter play MM that's for sure, (yes we only carry one) maybe 2 fights he goes SV other than that's its BM.
    I'll try and make my point more clear.

    In my opinion there are a limited number of reasons why a progression oriented guild should not have cleared ToT by now, and a difference in DPS of 5% (a very generous amount IMO) in a Hunter's damage output is not one of them. I believe heroic Lei Shen was tuned for an ilvl for 530 (or close to it). I would be very surprised if any serious progression guild is below that threshold and is not clearing because of a 5% damage discrepancy.

    Not letting one of your Hunter's play MM because you believe (don't even know if he wants to play it), or because the bandwagon fallacy has you caught up in it, that MM is the worst spec in the game is a silly excuse in my opinion. Up to you if you want to put any stock in my opinion though.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    I'll try and make my point more clear.

    In my opinion there are a limited number of reasons why a progression oriented guild should not have cleared ToT by now, and a difference in DPS of 5% (a very generous amount IMO) in a Hunter's damage output is not one of them. I believe heroic Lei Shen was tuned for an ilvl for 530 (or close to it). I would be very surprised if any serious progression guild is below that threshold and is not clearing because of a 5% damage discrepancy.

    Not letting one of your Hunter's play MM because you believe (don't even know if he wants to play it), or because the bandwagon fallacy has you caught up in it, that MM is the worst spec in the game is a silly excuse in my opinion. Up to you if you want to put any stock in my opinion though.
    MM is a shity spec, does it have Cleave? Multi-Dot? even Single-target is low, the opener is a mess, why play that spec? im absolutley sure none of Blizz devs have really worked on it during beta or actually mess with the class at all. the class scaling is poor and im tired of being a class that get hotfixed every 3 weeks...
    take a look at Warlocks: Affliction - Multi-dot + ST is awesome. Demo - Great ST + Multi-Dot. Destro - AOE + ST... Why can't hunter be like that??

    Why can't MM shoot 2-3 Arrows at once as a Cleave? its a Sniper spec, the best shooter spec why can't it do awesome things with bows and arrows?? just an idea that can easily and with a few mins of work can make the spec much better....
    Why cant i see "New: X Y Z" for the hunter class in tier patchs??

    i can still write alot of things it will never end but u get the idea.. I feel neglected as a Hunter player and i'm sure its not only me that feel this way
    the reason is simple.. if u're not a Mage/Lock/Rogue u won't top meters,thats have been since TBC and will always be (Warrs too sometimes but that because blizz fail to balance them)
    My only hope is Dark Ranger next expansion because im done with Hunters after this expansion..

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beoren View Post
    MM is a shity spec, does it have Cleave? Multi-Dot? even Single-target is low, the opener is a mess, why play that spec? im absolutley sure none of Blizz devs have really worked on it during beta or actually mess with the class at all. the class scaling is poor and im tired of being a class that get hotfixed every 3 weeks...
    MM has one of the strongest openers of the Hunter specs. Even more so now that Readiness is gone. CA is amazingly strong when the boss has a decent health pool (like Lei Shen). I can often burst above mages and locks (before combust lol). But that of course is nothing more than hearsay. The spec is "fine." It's not the best, but it's not the trash the bandwagoners make it out to be.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    MM has one of the strongest openers of the Hunter specs. Even more so now that Readiness is gone. CA is amazingly strong when the boss has a decent health pool (like Lei Shen). I can often burst above mages and locks (before combust lol). But that of course is nothing more than hearsay. The spec is "fine." It's not the best, but it's not the trash the bandwagoners make it out to be.
    Who cares about openers if overall its doing low dmg, has no cleave and AOE is low?? possibly the worse Ranged spec since mop

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