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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by pichuca View Post
    Femaledwarf:
    BM 216294 BS DB GT
    SV 208555 crows DB GT
    MM 206598 settings: SS in pairs if <4 sec on SS. disable AS during CA. AiS manual and instant under 1.5 sec AiS cast. Hardcast AiS always during CA. Standard use of CS and SS during CA. crows DB GT

    ~4.85% difference

    SimC: standard settings, 10k itt

    BM 214111
    SV 206287
    MM 203578

    ~5.4% difference

    reforged haste>crit>mastery, all RPPM items, legendary cloak, 540 ilvl http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Piichu/simple

    As you can see the difference is not big, and MM's output is the one more conditioned by the factors I've mentioned above. Does a 5% difference make BM clearly superior to MM? Yes. is a 5% difference enough to say that MM is a "subpar" spec (like frost or subtely) and it shouldn't be played under any circumstance? I Don't think so.
    if thats the difference why Blizzard can't just close the gap? abit tweaking will make some Hunters Happy, why can't they do that?
    i think that Hunters are already low, so you can't afford another 5% that will make you 15%-20% behind a Mage/Lock, we already feel weak why take the weakest spec??

    And what about fights that involve AOE or Cleave? those numbers you mentioned change dramaticly

    I really don't understand you ppl that defend Blizzard... the fact that alot of hunters don't play that spec in PVE should be a Red flag already ... and how come its one of the lowest spec for almost the entire expansion while its always same classes rule the meters every tier again and again and again? dosen't makes sense for me
    Last edited by Beoren; 2013-07-20 at 06:24 PM.

  2. #82
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    I don't see any line where I have defended blizzard whatsoever. I think you are mixing things up. I am just talking about MM output compared to the other two specs. There's ppl who claim that MM deals 25% less damage or more than BM, and that's untrue. Other ppl don't like anecdotal data, so I give some sim numbers, which of course need to be taken with a grain of salt. The thing I am defending is that you can play MM for ST fights and not lag behind to the point you are holding back your raid, unless you are a top class player in a top class guild where everyone performs at 99% of their maximun potential. Thats all.

    A few posts above I've explained why MM is clearly weaker than the other 2 specs, both on ST and AoE, and when it can be competitive and when it can't. Also I'm comparing only the 3 hunter specs, because there's no point on comparing with other classes, when the best hunter spec is the 8th or 10th DPS spec in the game.

    The problem beneath is the poor design of the class as a whole, not the balance between the 3 specs.

  3. #83
    I have a feeling that anything I post will most likely not be taken seriously by you Jax, but if you look back through my posts in this thread you'll see that the 5% he is claiming is NOT far off at all.
    It has nothing to do with taking you seriously, it has to do with whats real and whats not.
    NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has ever believed a sim, I dont know why I am even bothering to tell you this.

    Sim numbers are input how the person who is wrote the sim wants, the stat weights are all different. You can see that from your wild fluctuation from 4.5% on one sim to 7% on another.
    Sims are based on perfect fights with no movement, perfect latency, etc which can and will never happen so again... sim data is worthless.
    Take real numbers off WoL or raidbots or where ever you want to get them. In the real world of killing a boss there are cleaves, aoe, shit you have to move away from on and on and on. In this real world of raids, MM is not 5% behind BM, it is much greater.

    And what about fights that involve AOE or Cleave? those numbers you mentioned change dramatically
    Exactly... sims are garbage and they always have been and will be. FD.com says I should do 220k on my hunter, I have never even been close to that theoretical number even when I did a world 19th... I was 37,863k from what my sim said I was supposed to be able to do.

    ROFL... sims

    There's ppl who claim that MM deals 25% less damage or more than BM
    Again your talking straight BS... no one said that. Stop trying to use an outright lie to further your own agenda.
    What was said is IF MM was only 5% behind BM and everyone else decided to play a shit spec too then the whole raid would be 25% below what they could be doing and thus not able to kill a boss.

    The reason I dont take you seriously is that your not telling the truth and your using bogus information to try and pass off what everyone else knows to be false as truth. You can use sims all you want and if you honestly think they have any real bearing on whats going on in game then more power to you brother, Ill stick with the real numbers from real fights that show MM much farther behind.

    the fact that alot of hunters don't play that spec in PVE should be a Red flag already ... and how come its one of the lowest spec for almost the entire expansion
    This is where I am. If MM in the real raiding world was only 5% behind then people would still play it.. There are not enough MM parses to even pretend to be able to rank them on any fight from WoL... that alone should tell you its not a real 5% behind.

    I think I am done here, when someone tries to prove a spec that is complete garbage and the lowest ranged spec in the entire game is not because a sim says so... there's no help that can be given. The hunter community here is just lost in a cloud and I for one am tired of trying to bring sense to people that have no fing clue.

  4. #84
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    Honestly, you're arguing just to argue at this point. It's very sad. I've stated numerous times, if you actually managed to be able to read my posts, that sims aren't a good metric. The fact that you feel the need to constantly point this out is absurd and just showcases how little you're reading anything else in this thread other than the posts that agree with you.

    You've said over and over how MM is complete garbage. I disagree.
    You've said that MM is below BM and SV. I agree and have said as much many times.
    You claim that is everyone in a raid was using a spec that's behind, the raid would be 25% behind. I have disproved this. See the following:

    I am no math wizard but I could of swore that 5 dps x 5% = 25%?
    I am no rocket scientist but I know that 5 dps x 10% = 50%

    ATron52 Said: "Your math makes absolutely no sense. 5 DPS doing 15% less that what they *could* be doing is /gasp a 15% DPS decrease for the raid. Actually a bit less since tanks deal decent damage and healers can too on occasion.

    Raid
    Tank - 125k
    Tank - 70k
    "Suboptimal" DPS 1 - 144.5k instead of 170k.
    "Suboptimal" DPS 2 - 140.25k instead of 165k
    "Suboptimal" DPS 3 - 153k instead of 180k
    "Suboptimal" DPS 4 - 127.5k instead of 150k
    "Suboptimal" DPS 5 - 123.25k instead of 145k.
    Heal 1 - 40k
    Heal 2 - 10k
    Heal 3 - 5k

    Raid DPS of 938.5k instead of 1060k - an 11.5% decrease. So yes, the "wild" 25-50% figure thrown out is a complete fabrication. One which I have no clue why you're clinging to it so adamantly."

    Jax said: "I am no math wizard but I could of swore that 5 dps x 5% = 25%?
    I am no rocket scientist but I know that 5 dps x 10% = 50%
    I think I'm done here, the posts are getting more and more skewed by personal bias as they go. Someone correct my math for me if I somehow forgot my times tables from 3rd grade, we wouldnt want to make wild claims!"

    ATron52 Said: "By that logic, if you have 5 people doing 20% less DPS then the raid is doing 100% less. Meaning they aren't attacking at all. Please learn to use math before defending that claim. Look to my previous post and you can see that 5 DPS doing 15% less is less than a 15% DPS decrease in the overall raid. It's not hard. It's basic percentages."
    I AM NOT claiming that MM is viable to Heroic progression. I AM NOT claiming that MM can compete with BM and SV. I AM claiming that if your raid is wiping on normal progressing because one or two people are in a sub-optimal spec, you have a bad raid group. Mechanics matter so much more that 5-10-15-even 20% DPS for one or two players.

    Not every raid is looking to min-max through cutting edge heroic content - it's not needed at all. If you think otherwise, I can't help you. You come to this thread bringing so much hostility towards anyone who disagrees with you, it's actually quite laughable. You cant wrap your head around normal raiders anymore its seems even though the vast majority of all raiders are still progressing through normal ToT.

    You claim that you achieved a world 19th and I think you deserve a pat on the back because of it. It obviously means you're a good player, I can't deny that and haven't tried. However, when you spout the same nonsense of raids being behind 25% damage when that is Mathematically incorrect, it's hard to take you seriously about anything - honestly it is.

    If a raid group is progressing and have a MM Hunter, and Arms warrior, and a Sub rogue, what exactly is the problem in your eyes? The specs may be suboptimal, but optimal isn't required. Not every guild / raid group requires to be in the absolute best spec and fully min-maxed so they can work on ToT normal. Even back when ToT was fresh, this is the same case. If your raid struggled on adds in Horridon for example, you have bad players who aren't executing the strategy properly. Could being in a better spec help? Sure, the DPS boost could probably carry bad players and make them see decent. But that all it will do. I'd rather have a good MM hunter any day of the week than a bad BM hunter, I don't care if it's an outlandish 25% difference. Although math states that it'll be 10% or less.

    If that point doesn't make it through to you, I honestly don't know if there's anything I (or anyone for that matter) can do you help you. You seem to be so stuck on anti-MM ideals that you can't show empathy towards other player. Put yourself in the shoes of a 10-man normal raider and you'd see that MM, BM, and SV will make practically no difference in the grand scheme of things. If you'd like to calm down a bit, I'd be more than happy to continue a civil discussion with you on this matter - I really do enjoy this - but carrying around so much hostility in this thread (calling people uneducated, getting huffy and puffy when someone disagrees with you, claiming people are lying and "not telling the truth" by giving you numbers that you asked for, etc..) is ridiculously silly and honestly isn't doing much to further your argument.
    Last edited by ATron52; 2013-07-21 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Clarity

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    It has nothing to do with taking you seriously, it has to do with whats real and whats not.
    NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has ever believed a sim, I dont know why I am even bothering to tell you this.

    Sim numbers are input how the person who is wrote the sim wants, the stat weights are all different. You can see that from your wild fluctuation from 4.5% on one sim to 7% on another.
    Sims are based on perfect fights with no movement, perfect latency, etc which can and will never happen so again... sim data is worthless.
    Take real numbers off WoL or raidbots or where ever you want to get them. In the real world of killing a boss there are cleaves, aoe, shit you have to move away from on and on and on. In this real world of raids, MM is not 5% behind BM, it is much greater.



    Exactly... sims are garbage and they always have been and will be. FD.com says I should do 220k on my hunter, I have never even been close to that theoretical number even when I did a world 19th... I was 37,863k from what my sim said I was supposed to be able to do.

    ROFL... sims



    Again your talking straight BS... no one said that. Stop trying to use an outright lie to further your own agenda.
    What was said is IF MM was only 5% behind BM and everyone else decided to play a shit spec too then the whole raid would be 25% below what they could be doing and thus not able to kill a boss.

    The reason I dont take you seriously is that your not telling the truth and your using bogus information to try and pass off what everyone else knows to be false as truth. You can use sims all you want and if you honestly think they have any real bearing on whats going on in game then more power to you brother, Ill stick with the real numbers from real fights that show MM much farther behind.



    This is where I am. If MM in the real raiding world was only 5% behind then people would still play it.. There are not enough MM parses to even pretend to be able to rank them on any fight from WoL... that alone should tell you its not a real 5% behind.

    I think I am done here, when someone tries to prove a spec that is complete garbage and the lowest ranged spec in the entire game is not because a sim says so... there's no help that can be given. The hunter community here is just lost in a cloud and I for one am tired of trying to bring sense to people that have no fing clue.

    So in the end, you will just disprove any point anyone rises, no matter what, anecdotal data, sims, whatever disagrees with you. MM is garbage just because everyone says it is, thats a good reasoning. and now that you think sims are garbage also, you should know that both FD and simC sim us lower than we really are, and any good hunter should be beating his sims consistently on any ST fight, and you say you are almost 38k behind it... that's really underwhelming. So you are more than 15% lower than the DPS you should do, which is a really bad performance for someone trying to make any serious point about DPS

  6. #86
    Honestly, you're arguing just to argue at this point. It's very sad.
    Says the guy that just posted a wall of text that is complete gibberish.

    You go on about the math, I think it was meant that the raid cumulatively would do 25% less than it could be doing, not what it is doing? I am not a math expert either but that sounds more like what was meant? Its clear that if 5 people were doing 20% less dps there would still be dps going out, just much less than should be.

    You claim that you achieved a world 19th and I think you deserve a pat on the back because of it. It obviously means you're a good player, I can't deny that and haven't tried. However, when you spout the same nonsense of raids being behind 25% damage when that is Mathematically incorrect, it's hard to take you seriously about anything - honestly it is.
    The claim was that no matter how well played no one could ever match a sim or even come close to them. You again go off on the 25% number. Try and understand that the way it was said was a bit off but the point remains. 5 people doing 5% less damage than they are capable of is still a lot of damage left on the table for no reason except because they want to?

    If a raid group is progressing and have a MM Hunter, and Arms warrior, and a Sub rogue, what exactly is the problem in your eyes? The specs may be suboptimal, but optimal isn't required. Not every guild / raid group requires to be in the absolute best spec and fully min-maxed so they can work on ToT normal.
    I guess that is true, its also true there is no need to gem and enchant your gear, or to reforge at all. Doing these things is about a 5% decrease in dps also but who doesn't gem and enchant and reforge? Playing a fully horrid spec on purpose is just as asinine as not using gems or enchanting or reforging. You see the point?

    If that point doesn't make it through to you, I honestly don't know if there's anything I (or anyone for that matter) can do you help you.
    See my above post about gems etc. maybe you can take your own words into consideration.

    I really do enjoy this - but carrying around so much hostility in this thread (calling people uneducated, getting huffy and puffy when someone disagrees with you, claiming people are lying and "not telling the truth" by giving you numbers that you asked for, etc..) is ridiculously silly and honestly isn't doing much to further your argument.
    I dont know anyone's mind set about "huffy and puffy" but when he said you were lying, he was right. You keep saying that "someone" said MM is 25% behind and no one said it. I have checked 3 times and no one said it but you, trying to twist things. No one asked for sim numbers as the entire community knows they are wack. You are really trying to call out a long time poster who knows ton about what hes talking about (not so good explaining math it seems lol) on your use of sims? Seriously bud?

    I think it might be time to get back OT.

    The question is Mm and why nobody cares. The 3 people here that actually do have been heard. Atron52 you have been heard. The vast majority do not agree with you, the WoL numbers from actual raids do not agree with you, the worlds top raiders do not agree with you, the raid bot numbers that tally all the WoL in evidence do not agree with you. But please continue to defend and play MM. It is your right and privilege, just do not think that any hunter with half a brain will agree with you, especially when your argument is based solely on a sim.

    hug

  7. #87
    The reason why you don't see the 5% difference when going to sites such as raidbots is because the top 10% will always go with the higher spec without taking into account if they like it only because they've seen it sims much higher than the other specs. Cut off the top 100 parses and you'll quickly see that the 3 specs are much much closer when the skill is evenly distributed between them.

    And by the way Larry01 you're the one who claimed the 25-50% drop in DPS hell they even quoted you on it. The reason you may not be seeing it is because it does sound rather outlandish and you don't believe you sound that way.
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2013-07-21 at 11:13 PM.

  8. #88
    and any good hunter should be beating his sims consistently on any ST fight, and you say you are almost 38k behind it... that's really underwhelming. So you are more than 15% lower than the DPS you should do, which is a really bad performance for someone trying to make any serious point about DPS
    Really? Ok lets ignore your total lack of knowledge and lets look at a couple good hunters at random.

    I pulled the 50th and the 100th best rank for BM on IQon normal mode. (it is the closest thing to a ST sim fight we have in this tier and I purposely didnt pull top 1 because of padding and ignoring mechanics and cheesing things. 50 and 100 seem like a decently skilled hunter level without cheating going on.)

    Rank 50:
    Kmaiwin from Thrall: 185,048k dps
    His sim from FD.com: 214,764.86
    29k less

    So good hunters beat their sims is that the story we are telling now? rofl.. lets take the world 100th BM for some more fun.

    Rank 100:
    Nerfy from Proudmore: 178,544k
    His sim from FD.com: 208,192.74
    30k less

    I am going to have to go with the old adage that when you dont know what your talking about you should keep your mouth shut.

    And yes the math was meant to be 25% to 50% less damage than they could be doing total, not what they do overall. I said that kind of weird, knowing what I meant but not expressing it correctly. My mistake.
    Last edited by jax; 2013-07-22 at 12:07 AM.

  9. #89
    The reason why you don't see the 5% difference when going to sites such as raidbots is because the top 10% will always go with the higher spec without taking into account if they like it only because they've seen it sims much higher than the other specs
    Finally a decent counter argument. You have a good point, one worth looking into. I will do just that soon.

    And by the way Larry01 you're the one who claimed the 25-50% drop in DPS hell they even quoted you on it. The reason you may not be seeing it is because it does sound rather outlandish and you don't believe you sound that way.
    See now your just not telling the truth again. Below are everyone of my quotes from this thread where I discussed numbers and everyone of them has me trying to get the people back on track from the supposed MM behind 25% BS that someone tried to attribute to jax, so now you're trying to stick me with it? LOL I dont think so poppi!

    I do a great deal less in MM than I do as BM. 30 to 50k less in fact

    (you say 5% I say MM is 10%+ behind but we will use 5%)

    Mechanics will not matter at all if your 5 dps are all doing 25% to 50% less dps on the add...

    he was saying if all 5 dps in the raid decided to be prima donna's and play the worst dps spec just cause they hung to the false notion that it does as much as the best spec, then the difference would be 25% to 50%.

    He was not talking about 1 person he was talking about all 5 of the dps acting stupidly. The 25% is actually quite low to my eyes if each dps were to play the worst spec of their class on purpose.
    It is very very very clear that the 25% number came from totaling up 5 dps doing dumb things like going to crap specs. Again, no one ever said MM was 25% behind.

  10. #90
    Lets just agree we disagree then

    Here comess my 2 cents thou.

    Why would you in a competative guild CHOOSE to nerf your own dps? Be it by 5% or 15% or 25%.
    If your in a serious guild doing progression, why would you not play the specc that does the highest dps ?
    Could not care less for farmbosses where ppl are boored, so lets ignore that part.
    Marks IS below SV/BM, noone should think anything else.

    My personal experiance with marks in MOP is that is alot harder to play properly with focus managemen cause of double steady spam requirement.

  11. #91
    Why would you in a competitive guild CHOOSE to nerf your own dps? Be it by 5% or 15% or 25%.
    That has been my point from the beginning. That is what many here do not get and my point behind gems enchants and reforges.
    Lets say for a second that MM is only 1% behind. Wouldn't you still go another spec that was better?

    Its like because BM is 5% (in reality much more) then I do not have to gem my gear because its only a 3% loss in dps if I dont gem so its ok.
    Or one better, because its only a 2% dps loss in dps I wont enchant my gear!

    huh?

    Doing things that make you do less dps in any type raid is just not smart to me. I will assume that those posting here do gem and enchant? You do reforge yes? So if you do those things and each one is a 1% to 2% increase in dps why would you purposefully play a spec that's 5%-10% less dps?
    Why not just play BM and save the money on gems, enchants, and reforging!?

    hehehehe the more I explain it the more silly it seems doesn't it?

    Premeditated nerfing of ones self in WoW may actually be illegal in some states!
    Last edited by Larry01; 2013-07-21 at 11:56 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    See now your just not telling the truth again. Below are everyone of my quotes from this thread where I discussed numbers and everyone of them has me trying to get the people back on track from the supposed MM behind 25% BS that someone tried to attribute to jax, so now you're trying to stick me with it? LOL I dont think so poppi!



    It is very very very clear that the 25% number came from totaling up 5 dps doing dumb things like going to crap specs. Again, no one ever said MM was 25% behind.
    If however you state that MM is 10% behind the other 2 specs (and MM currently being the second lowest DPS) then 5 dps going to their lowest spec is only going to be a 10% drop in total raid DPS if even that. That is unless all of your DPS choose to swap classes and go Arms then yeah your 25-50% could possibly happen.

  13. #93
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    As I explained in a previous post, I misunderstood the 25% comment and have since dropped it. The comment that was made was a raid being 25% behind (which I have still proven incorrect) if all 5 DPS in a 10-man are sub-optimal specs.

    Please, point out to me where I " keep saying that "someone" said MM is 25% behind," especially since I explained my mistake a few posts ago. And I've NEVER attributed that comment to Jax - you're taking everything I've said and misconstruing it to be what you want it to be, not what I actually said.

    I realize that this forum has a lot of passionate posters, but your argument right now, Larry, honestly sounds like "Jax has a higher post count than this new guy." I respect that he's been here a while and that he's good, and this his opinion carries weight. But post counts should have nothing to do with anything in this thread. Also, claiming that my post is a "wall of text that is complete gibberish" does nothing to further your argument and only shows your ignorance and stubbornness in hearing and understand opposing viewpoints.

    I guess that is true, its also true there is no need to gem and enchant your gear, or to reforge at all. Doing these things is about a 5% decrease in dps also but who doesn't gem and enchant and reforge? Playing a fully horrid spec on purpose is just as asinine as not using gems or enchanting or reforging. You see the point?
    I very much see where you're going with this. Any raid leader worth his salt will require someone to be gemmed and enchanted, so why not force them to play the better spec. I get that. Spec, to me, don't fit into the same category as gemming. Are you going to force your Ele Shaman to go Enhance because it's higher? Your feral druid to go Boomkin? Most often the answer is no, especailly in normals - that type of optimization isn't required. If that's the case, why make your MM hunter go BM?

    At this point I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. We share two distinct ideologies in how a raid should be prepared. I haven't raided heroics full time since LK so I can't speak of I'm coming from the perspective of a assistant raid-lead and Officer of a Guild that has fully cleared 10-ToT normal and is progressing through heroics. Personally I realize that min-maxing is not needed for ToT normal so I do not enforce min-maxing policies - everyone must be gemmed, enchanted, and use flasks, but I don't care what spec you bring, as long as you play well.

    Maybe the 10-15% difference between me being MM and not BM is what's keeping the guild from a full clear in heroic - I doubt it though. We play as casuals and to have fun, so in that respect MM, Arms, Sub, etc... are just fine. To say otherwise for a guild clearing normals is just untrue. If the fact that I have a low post count and only have a full clear of normal makes you think my opinion on the situation is invalid, there's nothing I can do to change your mind.

  14. #94
    If however you state that MM is 10% behind the other 2 specs (and MM currently being the second lowest DPS) then 5 dps going to their lowest spec is only going to be a 10% drop in total raid DPS if even that. That is unless all of your DPS choose to swap classes and go Arms then yeah your 25-50% could possibly happen.
    Well yes and no. Lets look a a quick example using the number 1 rankings on WoL.

    BM: 451k
    MM: 352
    Diff: 99k

    Arc: 623k
    Frost: 356k
    Diff: 268k

    Ass: 566k
    Sub: 425k
    Diff: 141k

    Aff: 542k
    Destro: 386
    Diff: 156k

    Fury: 464k
    Arms: 329k
    Diff: 135k

    Total difference: 799,000kdps
    Total damage lessened: 120.65 million in a 2.5 min fight.

    Looking at it this way is a bit staggering.

  15. #95
    I realize that this forum has a lot of passionate posters, but your argument right now, Larry, honestly sounds like "Jax has a higher post count than this new guy." I respect that he's been here a while and that he's good, and this his opinion carries weight. But post counts should have nothing to do with anything in this thread. Also, claiming that my post is a "wall of text that is complete gibberish" does nothing to further your argument and only shows your ignorance and stubbornness in hearing and understand opposing viewpoints.
    You complain about me calling your post gibberish then you post this gibberish? I respect his opinions because he is right more often than not. He can break down logs and find the truth behind the green curtain. He did if for me when I was struggling and most of all, I simply agree with what he is saying. Many here do if you go back and ignore my posts and yours, the vast majority think MM is shit. There is a reason no top hunters play it, that point goes without saying.

    So please excuse my taking exception at your jab at me and post counts. It was beneath you and uncalled for. If I agree with you I will agree with you or anyone else, the point is I feel he is right in 99% of what he has said and his opinion echos mine. (well all but his math explanations that is)

    =)

    OT:

    Spec, to me, don't fit into the same category as gemming. Are you going to force your Ele Shaman to go Enhance because it's higher? Your feral druid to go Boomkin? Most often the answer is no, especailly in normals - that type of optimization isn't required. If that's the case, why make your MM hunter go BM?
    Well now we see the fundamental difference what many think and how you look at it. Me personally, I wouldn't have to force my raiders to go the best spec if there was such a huge difference, they see on their own from patch to patch what is happening and what spec to main.

    Oh and checking the numbers from above, the Jinrohk fight: BM is 22% over MM if you use the number 1 ranking of each =) Not that the no.1 ranking means a lot with the stacking that goes on but I couldn't resist the jab!!
    Last edited by Larry01; 2013-07-22 at 12:51 AM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Well yes and no. Lets look a a quick example using the number 1 rankings on WoL.

    Looking at it this way is a bit staggering.
    Looking at it this way is a bit wrong. Did you notice that the top ranking for BM is a CN character while the top MM character is US? Did you not know their ilevel is different? Did you notice none of these are the same people? Did you know different people actually have different skill levels? Seems you need to do a bit more work.
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2013-07-22 at 12:50 AM.

  17. #97
    Just to bud in here:

    It's very much possible to achive the "simmed" dps on FD. But remember that these simulations assume "perfect" play of your class. There's not alot of people who can do that. It doesn't mean they are bad players - it just means that FD won't give you the amount of damage you should "expect" to do as an average player, but rather, the damage you CAN do if you fully master your class.

    As an example, as the only single-target boss I have been in on recently where I can actually "show off" what I can do without harming the raid through whoring is Jin Rokh, take my log from this week:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=31&e=177
    According to the dashboard, I did 371K dps.
    Now, FD simulates my BM spec at 261K singletarget damage in a 2.5 (2:30 minute) fight. Sadly, I can't see my uptime on Fluidity - WOL doesn't seem to record it for some reason. Regardless, if the journal is to be believed, this is a 40% dmg increase. Multiply 261K with 1.4: 365.4K.
    Or about 6K *above* what FD thinks is possible.
    Obviously, I had incredible luck on trinket procs (on the other hand, we can't see how many RPPM procs FD would have given me), but remember that the above assumes a 100% uptime on the damage buff from the pool. However, that was obviously not the case -
    for every 90 seconds, there will be 55 seconds of "pool uptime". So as our fight lasted 2:26 mins (or 146 seconds), that's 55 seconds of the first pool, second pool spawns 2:10 minutes in, so that's another 16 seconds of pool damage I got. A total of 71 seconds out of 146, or an uptime of about 50% to make it easy.

    You also have to account for trinkets used with CD's inside the pool, yada yada, but I think I can rest my case - performing at the level of FD on a pure singletarget fight, which is assumed, is completly doable.

    I also don't see why you would not pick out the top parse from Iron Qon - exactly how can you do any of these things on qon: "padding and ignoring mechanics and cheesing things"?

    -You lose no DPS from movement. This eliminates about 90% of the abilities in the encounter that may be considered a DPS-loss in other cases. The only thing I can think of is not moving for the deadzone in P3, which, let's face it, everyone does either way.

    Now, kmaiwin is ranked 41 now instead, but take a look at his ability breakdown and it's quite easy to see he's doing something wrong: He's BM and using AMOC?

    The rank 1, jagerette, is alot closer to the simulation for his gear, about 10K under - HOWEVER, you cannot count on this. If you take a look, you will see that the log was recorded on 06-05. We currently have 07-22. So about 6-7 resets. In that time, he has gained 5-6 new pieces of gear that may even include his legendary cloak (which alone is almost a 10K dps upgrade) - depending on how dedicated he was (log was done same day as cloak was aquired. If he ran LFR for runestones prior to raid he had it for the log, if he didn't, then he got it after their raid. No way to tell).


    When all that is said and done, you also have to consider the fight you're picking and what you're arguing. Let me explain what I mean:
    You argue that is is impossible to "get anywhere close" to the sims, and point at ranks for 10 man normal Iron Qon to show us you are correct.
    You forget to factor in the facts that:
    In order to achieve the same results as a simulator, you have to be an excellent player - the simulation is not an "average" of what any one random person will see. It is an average of what a person that can play their class PERFECTLY will see (or to whatever degree of imperfect play you decide to calculate, I guess).
    Iron Qon is one of the easiest heroic bosses in 10 man - probably only beaten by Jin Rokh and Ji Kun.
    This means that the VAST majority of players that are capable of playing hunter perfectly have long since moved on from normal IQ and on to heroic. This means that your data-pool is basicly infested with "mediocre" players; they may get top 10 ranks, but that is only because the competition that can blow them away is in heroics, instead of normals.
    Add to the fact that Iron Qon is one of the few bosses where the achivement is completly doable (and is awarded on an individual basis) on heroic, and you'll probably not even see the heroic raiders return to normal Qon to complete their meta.

    So while I can see why you'd choose Qon as it's one of the very few fights you won't expect to be skewered due to multi dotting or other whore-tactics, it simply isn't viable to prove your point. Your data is comming from a pool of players that do not match the skillset that is assumed.
    You're much better off using Jin Rokh Heroic as your "marker", as that is the first heroic boss any player will do, and gives you the widest range of player skill - including the best of the best. You just have to account for the fluidity buff uptime.

    As a last note - with no disrespect ment to 10 mans, you're also going to find the "best" players in the 25 man enviroments. Not the 10 mans. I recall comparing one of my parses on Vizier Zorlok with the 10 man equivelant of the same rank (90% sure it was rank 1 vs rank 1 but it's so long ago I can't allow myself to say 100% <.<). Neither of us had any advantages or disadvantages over the other, but I was still about 10% ahead of him/her in terms of damage - realisticly that shouldn't have been true as the fight doesn't change between the sizes for a BM hunter, etc etc.
    That's not to say that there aren't great playes in 10 mans, but you'll find far more of them in 25man.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-07-22 at 01:18 AM.

  18. #98

    Exclamation Dear Lord the wrongness of this thread...

    As someone who doesn't have a horse in the game, I'm going to declare some winners/losers. Unfortunately I don't have the patience to ascribe blame to actual posters (which is probably a good thing).

    1. Not a math wizard - The example given of 5 dps players doing 5-10% damage resulting in a net 25%-50% loss of damage. That's false. The proponent kept mentioning that they were no math wizard, and the good news is that person was self aware. It's OK. Just accept that you were wrong and the poster who is expressing counterarguments, examples is correct.

    2. Some people don't take raiding that seriously. And while I take it personally if someone in my raid isn't doing the most dps, healing, tanking they can using things they can control (enchants, reforges, potions, flasks, l2p execution), I'm also going to recognize that if someone is more comfortable with a spec, then they will likely outperform themselves in specs they aren't comfortable with. I myself play my SV hunter quite well, but my BM spec lags an enormous amount because I don't have the time to practice it enough outside of actual raiding --- and bringing my completely suboptimal spec to raid is basically relying on folks to carry me which I'm not comfortable with.

    3. Skill vs. RNG vs. latency etc. - I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but typically when you're in the 5% range of dps differentials, factors like your own personal execution, internet connection and RNG are going to have effects on your numbers on the same order of significance as the theoretical class design. This is why we see skilled MM hunters performing on similar levels of other hunter specs (presuming similar item levels). However, I agree that anecdotal evidence shouldn't be considered a valid argument over 100,000s of parses and simulations that say differently. BUT... I also believe that most people fail to understand the context of logs.

    4. Context of Logs - There was an earlier post that expressed very well the effect of suboptimal simulation on class representation. Collectively people tend to flock to the optimal spec, which diminishes the talent pool in underrepresented specs which tends to have a magnifying effect on how bad a suboptimal class is. An amazing social experiment would be if worldoflogs artificially deflated/inflated some numbers to create the perception that MM was better than BM to see what happens when truly skilled/dedicated raiders bust their ass trying to get the most out of a supposedly "broken" spec.

    5. "Sims lol" - This is a similar conceit for people who don't put the context of sims in the proper place as it relates to logs. Yes, because it's a simulation of a particular setup that typically doesn't occur in actual raiding, the numbers that the sim generates shouldn't be taken as gospel. However, it also means that it's possible to outperform / underperform a sim result because of the inconsistency between simulation and reality. I don't think sims should be disregarded as cavalierly as the "sims lol" poster does, but it is important to recognize that the sim result IS meaningful, but only in specific context.

    6. Best single target dps fight - I would think Dururmu(sp) is a better test of Single Target dps. Granted there are 3 mobs that you should be dpsing down, which represents slight padding, but for the length of time involved, its probably not that different than the phase transitions in Iron Qon when both the dog and Qon are targettable. Combine that with the various "breaks" in Dps (tornado phase, dead zone) I just don't think Iron Qon is a great test at all. I have issues with Jinrokh for similar reasons as dealing with Ionization, Forced Lightning, and the Lightning round without completely stressing out your healers while doing maximum dps is a bit dicey, but I do acknowledge the rationale of accounting for Fluidity.

    Bottom line ruling (from my perspective):

    I agree with the MM hunters points. It would be nice to update MM dps, but the hunter class as a whole (relative to the other pure dps classes) is in trouble moreso than MM hunters are relative to BM or SV in single target fights. While I do agree with the overall concept that one should do their best at all times in a raiding environment, I would tend to agree that mechanics and taking avoidable damage by standing in fire are far more often a deterrent to a successful kill than a single hunter taking his suboptimal spec. That said, the point is well taken that if everyone had that attitude then as a group you are willfully nerfing your ability to kill a boss no differently than if you decided not to pre pot or flask or eat buff food or enchant or reforge --- all to different degrees of course. If Hunter X is willing to accept this "risk" especially if it is not a risk because switching specs might result in a dps loss due to lack of skill/muscle memory, and Guild X places more value on Hunter X being comfortable and happy than min/maxing to death, that's their business.

    That guild won't be getting world firsts (which the MM proponent agrees with), but we knew this already.

    Disclaimer: I am a hunter w/item level 540: Yaeger/Lightbringer - I try hard, but generally don't consider myself an optimal hunter by any stretch. I have ranked on various fights, but have more than my share of bad internet moments and skill based derp which I am too ashamed to mention. My BM hunter is a long way away from being played with the same skill as my SV hunter due to lack of comfort. And while I practice often, I don't seem to make much headway, so I tend to revert to SV hunter for all of ToT and just respec between AOE and Single Target talent choices as I go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Re: "Best single target fight" -- Mmmmm, some clarifications. I was using normal Dururmu as an example. However, I don't know the usage of heroic dururmu at this stage of the game. My guild is only 5/13H, and Dururmu Heroic hasn't been attempted yet. Personal bias, my bad.

  19. #99
    Looking at it this way is a bit wrong. Did you notice that the top ranking for BM is a CN character while the top MM character is US? Did you not know their ilevel is different? Did you notice none of these are the same people? Did you know different people actually have different skill levels? Seems you need to do a bit more work.
    Ease up playboy... its clear I know the difference skill makes and gear, as 4 posts ago I dissected a hunters log on how hunters were great because he was doing top in his guild. The numbers were just for a look see. The dont mean anything because they are different people and different gear etc. I was just showing the big differences in specs as a overview. No need to freak out like I was saying it was gospel... jesus...

    I hear you Draco, I was more trying to point out that if you can not reach the sim number doesn't mean you are a fail hunter like someone claimed. You can easily be a very skilled hunter and not touch your sim be it because the sims are set up wrong or there is no actual patchwerk fight to use.

  20. #100
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