MM Hunters and why nobody cares

[Deleted]

I know 2-3 hunters who have played all the patch as MM for ST fights both on 10-25 that already have finished content, so they are in decent guilds, and they had no problem keeping up with their mates. It is the weaker of all 3 specs, but not to the point it is going to hold back your progression unless you are on a cutting edge guild. it is the same as with the raid comps, stacking classes just because some top guild does it will not make it for the lack of skill/time invested.

[Deleted]

Just face it, MM as a specc cant be "hotfixed" it need a whole overhaul to be viable.

[Littlepinch]

Just face it, MM as a specc cant be "hotfixed" it need a whole overhaul to be viable.

I really don't think it needs a complete overhaul, but that's just me. after readiness is gone I think they will be able to balance us a lot better.

[jax]

Well to be honest your over thinking it. He was talking about the 1 hunter in a group playing in a 10 man wont stop them from progressing through normals

I am and I'm not... so you as a hunter get to play a vastly inferior spec and have others have to make up for your lack of dps/cleave/aoe but they dont? Thats the point, you feel like you're allowed to play a weak spec so why cant they? When they all do... shit doesnt get downed.

I think you're not seeing the real picture.
Sure if only one person did it would not matter too much as others could carry that person. Thats not the point, the point is why are you so special that you get to hamper your raid? What happens when everyone does it?
Again with thinking in a vaccum...

I know 2-3 hunters who have played all the patch as MM for ST fights both on 10-25 that already have finished content, so they are in decent guilds, and they had no problem keeping up with their mates.

Not to be rude but... seriously? Again with the ancedotal evidence??

I am sure your right, but that just means that the others in the raid have picked up the slack that the hunters that went MM have left sitting there by not going BM... Can it be done? Absolutely... would I or any sane raid leader that cares about progression allow it? Nope.

This thread is full of: "I do top dps!" " I am fine" "hunters are in a good place" etc etc... yet every single time a log is posted it is shown that none of that is real or true... I would hazzard a guess that its the case with your "buddies" that are "keeping up" with the raid.

It is the weaker of all 3 specs, but not to the point it is going to hold back your progression unless you are on a cutting edge guild.

Again your correct in the vaccum that you created because other people could probably carry you but AGAIN if they all think the same way as you do, your not downing shit.

And it is not just the weaker of the 3 specs, it is the worst ranged spec in the game and the 3rd from the bottom of all specs in the entire game... lets not try and put on pretty rose colored glasses... numbers never lie.

[ATron52]

I disagree with your disagreement.

Lets use Horridon for an example, if you do not get the first add down (this is a dps check) then you have 3 big adds destroying shit and aoeing and putting down all manner of crap that will wipe you.
If you have each dps in a 10 man playing a sub optimal spec (you say 5% I say MM is 10%+ behind but we will use 5%) You will never get past the fight period.

Mechanics will not matter at all if your 5 dps are all doing 25% to 50% less dps on the add... you just will not down the boss. There is no possible way no matter how good you are on mechanics. (well you can seriously out gear it to make up for people playing shit specs, but that's the only way)

Its the same with every fight, if your starting a raid instance for the first time or the 20th and your entire dps crew is doing 25%-50% less than they would normally do. Can you honestly sit here and pretend that you will be able to kill any boss even if you have perfect mechanics?

I really do not think you thought the matter through very well.

Both sims and my personal experiences disagree with the wild 25-50% that you're throwing out. MM, compared to BM and SV, is in a better spot than Frost Mages and Arms Warriors. Numerous sims put MM (in a vacuum) about 12k behind BM and 3k behind SV (Less than 7% in full BiS). In practice you may see a bit more, especially if you're not familiar with MM's play style, but 25-50% means you're being bad - it's not a spec issue at that point. When you do the same comparison to Arms warriors, Arms is about 13k behind 2h Fury and 16k behind 1h Fury(less than 8% in full BiS). Just barely more than the difference between MM and BM. Looking at frost mages, it's a little worse - a full 20k behind Arcane and 23k behind Fire (less than 10% in full BiS).

Hypothetical situation time.
Let's say that you're in a raid group with every averaging 525 iLevel. You go MM and do 15k less than you would as BM. You have a frost mage and arms warrior doing 23k and 16k less than they could potentially do respectively. In this situation, your raid is now down 54k DPS - a marginal impact. On a five minute boss fight, you've lost 16 million damage which sounds big and scary, but when a boss has hundreds of millions on health, you may be extending the fight by 5-10%. If you're wiping when the boss has <10% health due to hitting enrages or healers completely OOMing, then switching those three players to better specs could technically give you an edge. I can't imagine many fights fall into that situation though.

In a raid full of 5-6 DPS in 10m, if a raid is having issues downing the adds, there are bigger problems than someone being in a suboptimal spec. They don't have much health, making it purely an exercise in guild coordination instead of a straight DPS check. BM ay have higher burst on add fights like Horidon or Lei Shen giving them an even larger advantage, but it is by no means an insurmountable obstacle.

In my opinion, the logic of you have to do the best DPS you can or you're a bad player is absolutely garbage. Me being MM is in no way a hindrance to my Guild's progression. I am consistently one of the higher DPS in our runs, despite being MM. I consider myself to be a pretty good player. I'm not excellent and couldn't cut it in Method or some such, but I think I'm good. We also have some not-so-good players who are new to raiding (not just in WoW, but any game). Despite having me as MM and others who aren't quite cutting edge efficient, we're still progressing in 10 heroic raiding only 5 hours a week. I see my guild as a great example of bring the player, not the class. We're making it just fine with a sub-optimal hunter and some players who aren't as good they should be.

This giant wall of text I've posted is mainly to express my disdain of the attitude that so many players have - that you have to do everything you can to do as much dps as possible to progress. Some people get a thrill out of min/maxing and love to get that extra 1.5% DPS from switching Talent A to Talent B. In my OPINION, that type of attitude is in no way needed for normal raiding - especially when the vast majority of players who raid anything beside LFR aren't even into heroics. They would benefit soooo much more from better execution than spec swaps here and there.

I realize that it seems like most players who post on these forums are more of the hardcore crowd who either enjoy min/maxing, their guild requires it for heroic progression, or something like that so my point probably wont hit home on many of you. I'm not trying to troll or flame, just trying to get people to see the other side of the "Rawr! MM is garbage! Go play BM if srs!" argument.

This wall of text has gone on for far too long, so I'll wrap it up by saying that I know how unreliable sims can be as an accurate DPS representation under real circumstances, even though I use sims for a lot of my numbers. I also use the anecdotal evidence of "I'm MM and my guild is progressing just fine, so MM isn't as bad as everyone thinks." Looking at RaidBots or WoL, it's clear how low MM is compared to BM and SV, until you take into account the actual representation for MM compared to the others. When a fight has 200 MM parses and 6k BM parses, the player pool is obviously skewed towards the popular specs. When you have 30x the number of parses for BM than MM, it's pretty much a guarantee that no guilds are trying to boost their MM hunter for a top parse like the would for BM.

[Littlepinch]

Jax i do see your point. However for myself i can say for a fact that if i switched to bm for my raid I would do less dmg then if I were in MM only because i really really don't enjoy the spec in anyway shape or form. When i play bm (if i must) i do about the same as my mm spec maybe a little less. but again that's because i haven't played the spec enough and just don't enjoy it. Finding myself double casting cobras for example lol. I think the mm rotation is hard coded into my dna. I do realize that's ln2play bm problem, but even so myself switching to bm wouldn't be helping my raid any at this point until i got better at bm.


Also thank you Atron - Finally someone with some sense.

[Larry01]

Both sims and my personal experiences disagree with the wild 25-50% that you're throwing out.

You should prob go re-read what you quoted, he was saying if all 5 dps in the raid decided to be prima donna's and play the worst dps spec just cause they hung to the false notion that it does as much as the best spec, then the difference would be 25% to 50%.

He was not talking about 1 person he was talking about all 5 of the dps acting stupidly. The 25% is actually quite low to my eyes if each dps were to play the worst spec of their class on purpose. Its just a compeltely ridiculous conversation to be having and your "wild" word just makes me laugh, as did your wall of text discribing a "Hypothetical situation"

I am glad that the numbers are actually real that say MM is bad, or this could actually become a debate! As it is, its just one or two people that are under educated posting, and we all can deal with that.

Also thank you Atron - Finally someone with some sense.

/boggle

Ya taking away 25% to 50% of your raids dps wont have any effect on downing bosses... ROFL
I guess in that mind set you can 7 man when content is current in 10 mans.

Trololololol this is funny

/2 looking for a raid guild that only takes 7 people to raids, pst me I play the worst ranged spec in the game and can be carried ftw!

[Mad_Murdock]

I am sure your right, but that just means that the others in the raid have picked up the slack that the hunters that went MM have left sitting there by not going BM... Can it be done? Absolutely... would I or any sane raid leader that cares about progression allow it? Nope.

Here is the problem I see and why I agree that sometimes it doesn't matter. If a boss requires 140K dps to kill and the raid is doing 150K and everyone is in the least optimal spec, then who cares ? Sure you can say if everyone min\maxed to the smallest level you could do 165K, so instead of being over the limit by 10K you can be over the limit by 25k. Sure the boss dies 30 to 1 minute secs sooner. So what ?

I remember one of the early Jin'Rokh kills we had where I was the lowest gear guy there, I was around 30-40K less health then everyone else and some brought up that might be the reason we were wiping or that I was dying first. Now, let's look at the other fact that I was 525ilvl. People killed H-jin'rokh at ilvl 515, but because I was the lowest health, that was why we had trouble ? At the end of the day, DPS and health was not the issue. It was purely execution and adjusting to a different player with different self heals\cooldowns and the lack there of.

I see guilds that are 4/12 that execute terribly. And if I mention something it's always, "well we all don't have 530ilvl!" If that guild is running a MM hunter, someone could say "OMGWTFBBQ you're failing because he's MM!" But it doesn't change the fact that everyone is failing to execute. I think the majority of normal mode guilds need to focus first and foremost on execution and much later on what spec folks are running.

[Littlepinch]

Taking our words and twisting them to the worst possible outcome isn't helping at all. at no point was Atron or myself talking about all 5 dps being subpar ( only 1 ). if you don't want to discuss this within the context that's your problem.

[ATron52]

You should prob go re-read what you quoted, he was saying if all 5 dps in the raid decided to be prima donna's and play the worst dps spec just cause they hung to the false notion that it does as much as the best spec, then the difference would be 25% to 50%.

He was not talking about 1 person he was talking about all 5 of the dps acting stupidly. The 25% is actually quite low to my eyes if each dps were to play the worst spec of their class on purpose. Its just a compeltely ridiculous conversation to be having and your "wild" word just makes me laugh, as did your wall of text discribing a "Hypothetical situation"

I am glad that the numbers are actually real that say MM is bad, or this could actually become a debate! As it is, its just one or two people that are under educated posting, and we all can deal with that.

You math makes absolutely no sense. 5 DPS doing 15% less that what they *could* be doing is /gasp a 15% DPS decrease for the raid. Actually a bit less since tanks deal decent damage and healers can too on occasion.

Raid
Tank - 125k
Tank - 70k
"Suboptimal" DPS 1 - 144.5k instead of 170k.
"Suboptimal" DPS 2 - 140.25k instead of 165k
"Suboptimal" DPS 3 - 153k instead of 180k
"Suboptimal" DPS 4 - 127.5k instead of 150k
"Suboptimal" DPS 5 - 123.25k instead of 145k.
Heal 1 - 40k
Heal 2 - 10k
Heal 3 - 5k

Raid DPS of 938.5k instead of 1060k - an 11.5% decrease. So yes, the "wild" 25-50% figure thrown out is a complete fabrication. One which I have no clue why you're clinging to it so adamantly.

I'm not, and have not been trying to claim that MM is as good as BM. That's asinine when actual math shows the exact opposite. What I am trying to show is that it's nowhere near as extreme as you and some other keep implying. Actual math rates it as behind by about 7% in a vacuum where everything is performed perfectly. Double that to 15% and you're still not holding back raid progression unless you're doing cutting edge content, at which point you most likely wouldn't have been MM anyways sine min/maxing become important.

The way of thinking that you're showing - that since MM is behind it's complete garbage - is stupidly flawed for the everyday raider working through normal ToT. It almost seems like you're just wanting to be obstinate because you're A) a hardcore player who doing cutting edge content where MM isn't going to do well, B) someone who regurgitating what they've seen posted on forums, or C) just wanting to argue.

Fact - MM is NOT 25-50% behind BM and SV in a vacuum.
Fact - You can clear ToT with a raid full of sub-optimal specs.
Fact - MM is behind on AoE: taking barrage and TotH can really help close the gap.
Opinion - Normal raids don't wipe because of players doing 10-15% less DPS than what the could do - they wipe from failed execution, bad coordination, and bad RNG.

You're entitled to your opinion, but calling someone under educated because they're claiming a spec isn't as broken as bandwaggoners say seems a little off. There's no reason to try to make this personal since it always seems to spiral out of control. It's a good way to end up getting threads locked, and so far the discussion has been somewhat peaceful.

[Deleted]

I remember when MoP came out. I was in a semi hardcore guild and we were doing Garajal heroic attempts I think the second or third week of raiding. We were all wearing mostly blues and after one night of attempts were just talking,looking over logs to figure out what we can do to squeeze that last 2-3% since he one shots the whole raid when he enrages. I think most hunters in here have gone through that and just developed the "I need to do the best I can with my class so I don't have to go through times like that again" mentality, to make sure that you are overdpsing but doing it so you don't have to worry about that 1% wipe anymore.

Don't expect people to agree with you that MM is a decent spec when it is not, it is your money and you shouldn't really care but you are defending a spec that has been proven to be one of the worst specs out there when it comes to dps.

[jax]

Both sims and my personal experiences disagree with the wild 25-50% that you're throwing out.

I am no math wizard but I could of swore that 5 dps x 5% = 25%?
I am no rocket scientist but I know that 5 dps x 10% = 50%

I think I'm done here, the posts are getting more and more skewed by personal bias as they go. Someone correct my math for me if I somehow forgot my times tables from 3rd grade, we wouldnt want to make wild claims!!

Sure you can say if everyone min\maxed to the smallest level you could do 165K, so instead of being over the limit by 10K you can be over the limit by 25k. Sure the boss dies 30 to 1 minute secs sooner. So what ?

You are changing the parameters...
I used an example of Horridon, if your barely killing the first add to drop, and you take away half of your dps so idiots can play lesser specs, you wont kill the add before the other 2 drop and you will wipe.

The second part is your assuming that you can do the needed dps to kill Jinrohk well before the pools wipe your raid. You are using your vision from the nerfed versons you are killing now where no one has to really go beyond the 3rd pool to kill him. But if you will re-read I am talking about when fights are current.
When we were all in blues and barely making the enrages, taking 50% dps away because 5 people want to play shit specs wont get you a kill. It wont get you any kill. AGAIN, yes you can out gear the lack of correct specs. That is where your mind is... it is not what I was discussing at all.


- - - Updated - - -

Fact - MM is NOT 25-50% behind BM and SV in a vacuum.

FACT: No one said it is... learn to read dude... the 25% to 50% comes from ALL 5 DPS BEING IDIOTS AND PLAYing BAD SPECS.
Did that clear it up for you?
Jesus...

Fact - You can clear ToT with a raid full of sub-optimal specs.

FACT: You can now that its been nerfed 4 times and everyone has upgraded gear... again, NOT what the discussion is about.. learn to read.

Fact - MM is behind on AoE: taking barrage and TotH can really help close the gap.

You at least know this thank god...

Opinion - Normal raids don't wipe because of players doing 10-15% less DPS than what the could do - they wipe from failed execution, bad coordination, and bad RNG.

Seriously? So not being able to down the first add on each door on Horridon and having 3 adds blowing u up wont kill you? Clearly dps doesnt matter at all! Thank god, we can now take 5 tanks and 5 healers to raids!!!

You're entitled to your opinion, but calling someone under educated because they're claiming a spec isn't as broken as bandwaggoners say seems a little off.

Its not "off" at all, its a dead on factual statement... trying to argue that MM is viable is beyond pathetic and bordering on the criminally insane.

There's no reason to try to make this personal since it always seems to spiral out of control. It's a good way to end up getting threads locked, and so far the discussion has been somewhat peaceful.

Ill agree here, the problem is that the people arguing arent reading... its that simple and something that simple puts me in a foul mood. I dont care if you disagree, but you best come with some numbers (which you cant cause all numbers for MM are shit and have been all expac) or some kind of proof backing you up with the wild claims you have.

Link me a log...one log that shows MM doing anywhere close to the same numbers as BM or SV. Until then its time to sit quitely while those that actually know what they are talking about post.

[ATron52]

I am no math wizard but I could of swore that 5 dps x 5% = 25%?
I am no rocket scientist but I know that 5 dps x 10% = 50%

I think I'm done here, the posts are getting more and more skewed by personal bias as they go. Someone correct my math for me if I somehow forgot my times tables from 3rd grade, we wouldnt want to make wild claims!

By that logic, if you have 5 people doing 20% less DPS then the raid is doing 100% less. Meaning they aren't attacking at all. Please learn to use math before defending that claim. Look to my previous post and you can see that 5 DPS doing 15% less is less than a 15% DPS decrease in the overall raid. It's not hard. It's basic percentages.

You're just arguing to argue at this point it seems. I've never once claimed MM is doing the same DPS as BM. I've never once claimed that it's OK to be MM for heroic progression (though I am and we aren't having issues - anecdotal). What I am claiming is that it's not as broken as you seem to imply and that it's entirely possible to clear normals with an entire raid of sub-optimal specs, even though we're only talking about MM. Normal ToT doesn't have many tight enrages where the extra 10% DPS makes the difference between a wipe and a kill, and if you do come across that situation, it's much more a learning to play properly scenario than it is a "Rob need to switch to BM so we can down boss XYZ!"

- - - Updated - - -

FACT: No one said it is... learn to read dude... the 25% to 50% comes from ALL 5 DPS BEING IDIOTS AND PLAY BAD SPECS.
Did that clear it up for you?
Jesus...

To my credit, I took:

Mechanics will not matter at all if your 5 dps are all doing 25% to 50% less dps on the add... you just will not down the boss. There is no possible way no matter how good you are on mechanics. (well you can seriously out gear it to make up for people playing shit specs, but thats the only way)

as someone pointing out an extreme example oh how they thought MM did 25-50% less. I stand corrected.

YFAXT: you can now that its been nerfed 4 times and everyone has upgraded gear... again, NOT what the discussion is about.. learn to read.

No, even when ToT was fresh and people were still in 490-500 gear, one guy doing 10% less isn't a big deal.Even back then enrages in normal mode were paltry and if you were struggling to hit them it's purely a l2p issue.

You at least know this thank god...

Thank you for noticing.

Seriously? So not being able to down the first add on each door on Horridon and having 3 adds blowing u up wont kill you? Clearly dps doesnt matter at all! Thank god, we can now take 5 tanks and 5 healers to raids!!!

We are talking about normal right? If you're having trouble downing adds on Horridon in normal ToT with a raid full of Arms Warriors, Frost Mages, and MM Hunters, you need to work on guild coordination. They don't have a lot of health, seriously. It's just takes people actually switching to them to down them. That was true back during the first week of ToT as well. It's an execution issue, not numbers.

Its not "off" at all, its a dead on factual statement... trying to argue that MM is viable is beyond pathetic and bordering on the criminally insane.
Ill agree here, the problem is that the people arguing arent reading... its that simple and something that simple puts me in a foul mood. I dont care if you disagree, but you best come with some numbers (which you cant cause all numbers for MM are shit and have been all expac) or some kind of proof backing you up with the wild claims you have.

Link me a log...one log that shows MM doing anywhere close to the same numbers as BM or SV. Until then its time to sit quitely while those that actually know what they are talking about post.

I have not once said that MM does close to the same as BM. In fact, I keep pointing out over and over that it does indeed do less, and that it is mathematically NOT capable of the same damage as BM or SV. I've expressed this before in this thread - MM parses on Raidbots and WoL are heavily skewed. When you have 50 parses for MM and 7k for BM, it's virtually guaranteed to NOT have anywhere near the top logs. With such a heavy stigma against MM, the overwhelming majority of players that are logged are BM and SV because they feel that they need to min/max even though it's not required for normal content. The top logs in pretty much every scenario are either extreme RNG luck or the entire guild was working together to boost someone to give them the best possible circumstances.

Of course you probably know that.

What I can point out are numerous sims that rank them much closer than some people tend to think. Full BiS stand and shoot one target style fight (I know it doesn't really exist any more) BM and MM are only 7% away. Adding tons of adds to a fight makes MM worse, that's a fact. I can see a possible 20-25% difference between BM and MM on a fight like that, but math shows that on an average fight it's nowhere near that dramatic. Logs don't show that since so few play MM. But, for your average player in an average guild progressing through normal ToT, going MM may result in being a bit lower - anywhere from 5% to 20% or so - But that DPS difference isn't going to make them wipe. It's silly to think so.

I know that you and I have two radically opposing view points but all I'm trying to point out is that if you're wiping in normals, even when ToT was fresh and raids didn't have 530+ ilevels, it's not the MM hunter that's doing it - I can guarantee that.

[Deleted]

would I or any sane raid leader that cares about progression allow it? Nope.

This is a dangerous mentality. The same way, a sane raid leader wouldn't allow any class that is not the higher DPS class. So you could see a raid with 15 warlocks and 3 random dpss to cover all the buffs. Is this sane? I think people loses perspective and forgets that this is just a game, and that for many ppl, progression at all costs and by any means is not the way to achieve things. Progression can be done at different paces. Some ppl like to finish everything asap, some people like to finish the content before the next patch, and even some ppl is ok with finishing only normals. And all of them focus on progression, but they all approach it in different ways. Some ppl like to play certain specs that are subpar, because they have more fun than playing the other specs. And while their guild as a whole allows it, whats wrong with it? Many ppl won't give away things solely to progress faster or further. You guys need to understand this.

[jax]

This is a dangerous mentality. The same way, a sane raid leader wouldn't allow any class that is not the higher DPS class. So you could see a raid with 15 warlocks and 3 random dpss to cover all the buffs. Is this sane?

Absolutely no that is not sane... you take others for gear soaks and the utility they bring and raid CDs etc etc... I think you know that though and are just trying to continue the argument. You do however expect your raiders to have flasks and pots, to be gemmed and enchanted, to be reforged, and to play the proper spec for the fights dont you? To me they are all the same thing... being any kind of raider.

I think people loses perspective and forgets that this is just a game, and that for many ppl, progression at all costs and by any means is not the way to achieve things. Progression can be done at different paces.

Agreed. Yet again though I am talking from my point of view and others are talking from a LFR or a friends and family type raid structure.

Some ppl like to play certain specs that are subpar, because they have more fun than playing the other specs. And while their guild as a whole allows it, whats wrong with it? Many ppl won't give away things solely to progress faster or further. You guys need to understand this.

Again I agree with your statement.
My point was:
Why hamper your raid with the worst ranged spec in the game? Why ask others to make up the difference that you cant by choosing a horrid spec?
If you are not willing to then no one else in the raid needs to so they can play bad specs and your raid would be way behind the dps you would be at choosing nominal specs and therefore couldn't kill bosses.

/shrug

[Deleted]

I was indeed trying a reductio ad absurdum. My whole point is that you can be a good player on a good guild (not a world class, ofc) and having that kind of freedom when raiding. I always play the top DPS spec, but I wouldn't go mad if a guildie wants to play combat or a mage wants to go frost. But If you find yourself on a scenario like "we need those 15K DPS to down the boss" then you can tell him, please, roll fire for this one. He will happily do it. Everything is about compromises, and theres always a middle ground. This however doesn't happen in top guilds, and unfortunately the trend in lesser guilds is to mimic everything a top guild does, while it may not be the best for your own guild. You can see guilds who are now 1/13hc which are much more hardcore than others with 9, 10 heroics, and by hardcore I mean really annoying RLs, yelling on everyone, sitting ppl for a single mistake, making you take 300 stats food for a first try to a boss, playing the same raid comps that top guilds do, "sorry mate, we can't afford to bring a ret pally over a rogue", etc etc etc. I see this happen a lot when I go pugging old raids, and people who are the average player at best behave like that, and they don't understand that mimicking the top guilds won't make it up for being mediocre players.

back to the main topic, MM is not THAT far from BM. If you take the 3 hunter specs in a vacuum, theres about a 5% difference. But there are major factors that affect MM output the most. For it to be competitive with the other 2 specs on a ST boss, you need to have a CA phase that lasts as long as bloodlust does. Also, you need to have shattering throw+crit banner up for the most part of it, to maximize your AiS+PS damage. BM benefits from this a lot too, but the +crit damage modifier is a big boost to MM. If you meet those criteria, then you can compete with an equal geared and skilled BM hunter, and be within 2-3% of his DPS, and certainly beat an SV hunter. However if you have a short CA phase, with no BL during it, and lack of enough warriors to maintain a good 30-40sec of arpen debuf+ crit banner, you will lag behind from the beggining, and thats when you can see an enormous difference of 20-30-40k DPS. Also MM has a strong AoE burst, for a 4-5 sec window, but sustained AoE or cleaving is really bad compared to the other two specs. These 2 factors makes it the weakest of the 3 specs.

All in all I don't think theres a need to rebuild the spec from scratch, I really like the playstyle, but I would like it to be really the Marksman spec, making AiS hardcast the standard focus dump, not allowing it to be casted on movement, needing to use AS. Also I would allow Autoshot during AiS. CA phase should become a CD of 15-20 sec in a 2-3 min CD. I would also take back Sniper Training, increasing the damage of your AiS for 2% every sec you stand still up to 5 stacks, and decreasing its cast time for 0.1 sec aswell, and making it to lose one stack for every sec you move. I personally don't like our model of 100% damage during movement, it needs to be a reward to those playing better overall (please don't say that ppl would stand in the fire just to keep the damage buff)

[jax]

MM is not THAT far from BM. If you take the 3 hunter specs in a vacuum, theres about a 5% difference.

Where do you get this number?

[Deleted]

Femaledwarf:
BM 216294 BS DB GT
SV 208555 crows DB GT
MM 206598 settings: SS in pairs if <4 sec on SS. disable AS during CA. AiS manual and instant under 1.5 sec AiS cast. Hardcast AiS always during CA. Standard use of CS and SS during CA. crows DB GT

~4.85% difference

SimC: standard settings, 10k itt

BM 214111
SV 206287
MM 203578

~5.4% difference

reforged haste>crit>mastery, all RPPM items, legendary cloak, 540 ilvl http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Piichu/simple

As you can see the difference is not big, and MM's output is the one more conditioned by the factors I've mentioned above. Does a 5% difference make BM clearly superior to MM? Yes. is a 5% difference enough to say that MM is a "subpar" spec (like frost or subtely) and it shouldn't be played under any circumstance? I Don't think so.

[ATron52]

Where do you get this number?

I have a feeling that anything I post will most likely not be taken seriously by you Jax, but if you look back through my posts in this thread you'll see that the 5% he is claiming is NOT far off at all.

Female Dwarf - 4.6%
Noxxic - 6.1%
Simcraft Raid List - 6.8%
My Personal SimC Results - 7%

Therefore, in a vacuum they're VERY close and I can guarantee that during normal progression, that 5-7% isn't what's stopping your guild from downing a boss. It's bad players not doing what they're supposed to be doing. I am not, and have not been saying anything about heroic, cutting-edge Ra-Den / Lei Shen etc...

*Edit* Looks like Pichuca beat me to it. I hit reply and went AFK for a bit. Either way that fact still stands...

[Tecnice]

By that logic, if you have 5 people doing 20% less DPS then the raid is doing 100% less. Meaning they aren't attacking at all. Please learn to use math before defending that claim. Look to my previous post and you can see that 5 DPS doing 15% less is less than a 15% DPS decrease in the overall raid. It's not hard. It's basic percentages.

Take ice cube tray: Apply directly to burn.