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  1. #1

    Full haste Arcane v. full mastery

    I have been playing around with both and i have seen little to no difference. If I go full mastery i can hit 80% and change, full haste i am nearly 57%. I am talking pure single target dps here, i know muilti dotting with full mastery is far superior.

  2. #2
    Epic! Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Mastery is better, but not full though. You still need some decent haste for mana recharge and shorter cast times.

  3. #3
    What kind of haste should i be aiming for?

  4. #4
    And added (free) ticks of your bomb

  5. #5
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Mastery is better, but not full though. You still need some decent haste for mana recharge and shorter cast times.
    Something to note is that the mana gained from Haste is lower than the amount you can expend it.




    ...At least for Frost it is; for Arcane it'd probably be worse unless you're using a HasteVocation build.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
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  6. #6
    If you have raid haste you probably want to hit atleast 3039 for the extra tick on LB (no frost armor)
    Assuming your running Frost armor on the Haste build, perhaps 9525 haste comes into view, but that is a boatload of haste for the second extra tick

    For NT you want to be hitting (frost armor + Raid haste) 3220 or 6350...

    You can find the figures yoiurself here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ire-Mage-Guide
    In the attached google spreadsheet

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    For NT you want to be hitting (frost armor + Raid haste) 3220 or 6350...
    Full mastery build im at a little over 80% mastery and little over 9k haste, just doesn't seem to be preforming as id hoped. Looking at some of the top parsing Arc mages i see some full mastery and some Haste/Mastery so i dont know.

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/Kil'Jaeden/Kenbud/

    If anyone cares to take a look and chime in. Hope Pete or Boxed will show up and drop their 2 cents.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Full mastery build im at a little over 80% mastery and little over 9k haste, just doesn't seem to be preforming as id hoped. Looking at some of the top parsing Arc mages i see some full mastery and some Haste/Mastery so i dont know.

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/Kil'Jaeden/Kenbud/

    If anyone cares to take a look and chime in. Hope Pete or Boxed will show up and drop their 2 cents.
    your bomb uptime seems too low on few fights.(aniums 66%(like 80 before you died), ironqon 88%-89%...) try aiming at 95%+. also you shouldn't use NT on fights like iron qon. well and obviously you shouldn't die (jinrokh) . rest seems ok. your raiddps is rather low, so good rankings arent possible.
    Last edited by ralikonik; 2013-07-14 at 12:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Wasn't asking for an analysis of my logs, I am asking about gearing and stat priority. But i see you never miss a chance to be condescending. A cutting edge heroic raider such as yourself should know that animus can go to hell in a hand basket very quickly and there is much moving and readjusting to be done and just general keep yourself alive shit that need to be done, so maybe not the best fight to judge. And why not use NT on Qon? NT is much more comfortable to use and clipping for the sake of snapshotting is much more forgiving. And being a cutting edge heroic raider such as your self you should know about getting bad RNG on dead zone, so there is that 6% additional up time you suggested.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Mastery is better, but not full though. You still need some decent haste for mana recharge and shorter cast times.
    Once again proving you know nothing about Arcane in its current state. Every post of yours I see you post about how you want Arcane to be stronger etc and better burst blah blah, please keep up-to-date on the specialization you're choosing to comment on instead of blindly posting incorrect data and passing it off as truth.

    Talking pure single target, if you have 2 RPPM trinkets and Meta, Haste > Mastery.
    Personally I find Haste runs off diminishing returns past a certain point, especially as Arcane is a nuking spec and, while our DoTs are strong, main damage still comes from casted nukes so if you see yourself going consistently under GCD cap on casts you've probably got too much Haste.

    I'm currently running a hybrid build as there is no such thing as patchwerk this expansion; 9762 Haste, enabling me to use Nether Tempest/Mage Armor for multi-dot fights (Council, Dark Animus, etc) and an extra tick of Living Bomb when using Frost Armor for single target.

    People can (and probably will) disagree with me here, but my overall results speak for themselves.

  11. #11
    well lets be clear. its all personal preferences and the results on single target fights for max haste/max mastery/sth. in between shouldn't be far apart. on multi target fights with NT max mastery is the clear winner. most fights are not single target so why even consider anything but max mastery?
    what do you mean by your overall results?

  12. #12
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    well lets be clear. its all personal preferences and the results on single target fights for max haste/max mastery/sth. in between shouldn't be far apart. on multi target fights with NT max mastery is the clear winner. most fights are not single target so why even consider anything but max mastery?
    what do you mean by your overall results?
    No, NT with "max mastery" is not the clear winner. If you aren't sacrificing a lot of Mastery, reaching the haste breakpoint is always better.

    Considering you're using LB on 7/13 of the fights (or at least I am), you can hardly say NT with max mastery is the go-to choice for reforging/gemming. Hybrid build (ie what most are doing - Full BiS doesn't count) is the best option.

    My overall results on fights considering the build I'm using and considering my gear.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    No, NT with "max mastery" is not the clear winner. If you aren't sacrificing a lot of Mastery, reaching the haste breakpoint is always better.
    well sure it is. but what is a lot of mastery. you could have had 1800 more mastery. i feel like thats already too much. if its like 500 i would say go for it, otherwise i would just stack mastery.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    well sure it is. but what is a lot of mastery. you could have had 1800 more mastery. i feel like thats already too much. if its like 500 i would say go for it, otherwise i would just stack mastery.
    Let's say NT does 100 damage per tick.
    If I drop 1800 Haste and lose my tick and put it all into Mastery, I would gain 6% Mastery.

    So, let's assume 77.63% Mastery (taken from my Armory - raid buffed). I get NT ticking 16 times per GCD.

    So, I get to 83.63% Mastery but instead have NT ticking 15 times per GCD.

    177.63*16 = 2842.08
    183.63*15 = 2754.45

    So even 1800 Mastery isn't enough to warrant it. The thing is, the more haste you sacrifice, the more potential breakpoints you're losing. Haste breakpoints are almost always worth getting if you're not stretching to get there.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Let's say NT does 100 damage per tick.
    If I drop 1800 Haste and lose my tick and put it all into Mastery, I would gain 6% Mastery.

    So, let's assume 77.63% Mastery (taken from my Armory - raid buffed). I get NT ticking 16 times per GCD.

    So, I get to 83.63% Mastery but instead have NT ticking 15 times per GCD.

    177.63*16 = 2842.08
    183.63*15 = 2754.45

    So even 1800 Mastery isn't enough to warrant it. The thing is, the more haste you sacrifice, the more potential breakpoints you're losing. Haste breakpoints are almost always worth getting if you're not stretching to get there.
    While what Serene is saying is true, I would not resort to gemming for haste over mastery as arcane.

    Hit the desired breakpoints for NT or LB with frost armor and reforging.

    You still want as much mastery as possible while hitting the desired breakpoints.

    And I would strictly use frost armor as arcane. Mage armor doesn't scale, the haste from frost armor is multiplicative granting a scaling bonus to haste.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    While what Serene is saying is true, I would not resort to gemming for haste over mastery as arcane.

    Hit the desired breakpoints for NT or LB with frost armor and reforging.

    You still want as much mastery as possible while hitting the desired breakpoints.

    And I would strictly use frost armor as arcane. Mage armor doesn't scale, the haste from frost armor is multiplicative granting a scaling bonus to haste.
    Personally I'm using Mage Armor with NT for heavy cleave fights as sometimes Frost Armor isn't going to get you a haste breakpoint - if it isn't it's not worth using and Mage Armor is better.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Let's say NT does 100 damage per tick.
    If I drop 1800 Haste and lose my tick and put it all into Mastery, I would gain 6% Mastery.

    So, let's assume 77.63% Mastery (taken from my Armory - raid buffed). I get NT ticking 16 times per GCD.

    So, I get to 83.63% Mastery but instead have NT ticking 15 times per GCD.

    177.63*16 = 2842.08
    183.63*15 = 2754.45

    So even 1800 Mastery isn't enough to warrant it. The thing is, the more haste you sacrifice, the more potential breakpoints you're losing. Haste breakpoints are almost always worth getting if you're not stretching to get there.
    That's all well and good when viewed in a vacuum of total damage and assuming you're not casting anything else. The DPS increase from hitting extra haste breakpoints comes in extending your DOT and freeing up time to do other things. So the value of the breakpoint is what you're doing with that extra time rather than refreshing your bomb, not just the damage from the extra tick. Mastery increases the actual DPS of the bomb itself. The value of the extra tick would be something like the avg DPET of your non-bomb abilities multiplied by the duration of the extra tick. Not sure what the answer really is, but this is too simple of an analysis to conclude that haste is better than mastery for bombs.

    Personally, I'm just starting to transition to arcane from Frost, so I'm still running a high haste build to make my transition easier. The high haste build is simming much better than the pure mastery build for single target fights. I'm running with 12k haste (enough to hit the last reasonable LB breakpoint with meta up) and then dumping everything else into mastery going forward. This'll definitely put my arcane blasts under the gcd if hero and the meta are up at the same time, but fine otherwise. Long-term I'll probably drop down to the 9k LB breakpoint if I fully commit to being an arcane mage.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justastrudel View Post
    That's all well and good when viewed in a vacuum of total damage and assuming you're not casting anything else. The DPS increase from hitting extra haste breakpoints comes in extending your DOT and freeing up time to do other things. So the value of the breakpoint is what you're doing with that extra time rather than refreshing your bomb, not just the damage from the extra tick. Mastery increases the actual DPS of the bomb itself. The value of the extra tick would be something like the avg DPET of your non-bomb abilities multiplied by the duration of the extra tick. Not sure what the answer really is, but this is too simple of an analysis to conclude that haste is better than mastery for bombs.

    Personally, I'm just starting to transition to arcane from Frost, so I'm still running a high haste build to make my transition easier. The high haste build is simming much better than the pure mastery build for single target fights. I'm running with 12k haste (enough to hit the last reasonable LB breakpoint with meta up) and then dumping everything else into mastery going forward. This'll definitely put my arcane blasts under the gcd if hero and the meta are up at the same time, but fine otherwise. Long-term I'll probably drop down to the 9k LB breakpoint if I fully commit to being an arcane mage.
    As Arcane your bombs, whether you take LB or NT, are your highest DPET spells outside of Mirror Images - and personally I find Mirror Images derp around far too much for them to actually live up to their DPET potential.

    Hitting breakpoints doesn't "extend" your DoT, it makes the bomb tick more times in the same period than before. There is no "extra duration" to consider, the duration (more or less) remains the same, so you are gaining nothing but DPS by hitting breakpoints. In Single Target circumstances, bombs are doing ~25-30% of your damage. In multi-dot situations they are usually doing ~50-60%. Now, granted this is because Arcane is currently broken as hell and the only reason it's viable is because of the bomb buff. However, while this may be the case, playing Arcane at the moment IS playing around Bombs and how well you can manage them, especially in multi-target situations.

  19. #19
    I'm quite with Serene on this 1.. Only time I would consider going full mastery is when there is AoE going on, and in ToT with current arcane, there ain't much to AoE as multidotting NT is stronger almost always. 1 thing you also might consider is that getting to the 9762 is quite easy for anyone with over 540 ilevel and you still have near 13k mastery left after that, plus it's goddamn hard to get below 7k haste for me atm

  20. #20
    You're right. That was my original understanding of how they worked until I saw a bunch of people recently claiming that haste breakpoints had no effect on DPS of Dots, just DPET so I assumed I must've been wrong. Guess I shouldn't assume others know what they're talking about

    In actual testing the duration did appear to stay consistent with frost armor toggled, but the ticks in that duration and thus overall damage did change of the ability did change. Haste certainly appears to be a stronger overall stat up to a point for arcane (assuming double rppm trinket/meta), before mastery takes over.

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