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  1. #1

    How I think LFR should be changed

    Looking for raid has been a thorn in much of the populations side for some time now. While it is understood that there is still a large amount of players who have found it useful and a great improvement to their monthly subscriptions the fallout it has caused in the higher difficulties has been significant. The gear is often such an upgrade from the previous tier that most non-heroic raiders feel forced to do LFR in order to maximize their characters potential. It is an option whether to do it or not, but by doing so it somewhat spoils the feeling of progression once you jump back into your appropriate raid difficulty. So you have the choice between experiencing the raid how it was meant to be or obtaining welfare gear through means that ruin that experience.

    So the question I ask is this; why is LFR released in the same period of time as the actual raid?

    We already see that it is gated when released, in attempt to let some of the normal/heroic raiders have some time of prestige or to get more than a month out of the subscribers who return to see the new raid and leave. If it is in fact the latter, wouldn't it make more sense to not release LFR at the same time as the actual raid?

    Now this is how it should be changed; LFR should be released in the minor content patches (5.1, 5.3, 5.5) and provide no achievement.

    Doing this will give the players who progress on normal/heroic a well deserved experience of the newly released raid without having LFR taint it. There is nothing rewarding about killing a boss in LFR. I realize there's still a huge difference between killing a boss in LFR and killing a boss in normal/heroic, but the fact is the feeling of progressing through the actual raid is lost. You now know what trash will be like, what traps there will be, what the rooms will look like, the dialogue and lore. I'm sure if you only raid for the progression and could care less about the surrounding raid around you these feelings won't matter as much to you. But to someone who enjoyed raids like Ulduar and Karazahn because of the uniqueness and surprises it held this is everything.

    And this is where the argument "if you don't want it to be ruined, don't do it" comes in. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who wants to do everything in their power to help their guild out as much as they can. This includes learning the fights, getting the welfare gear, and killing bosses that drop legendary quest items if you haven't killed it that week already. If you're progressing slower than LFR is being released you feel almost obliged to do LFR or else you're letting your team down. I raid lead, I don't force people to do LFR for the same reason I don't want to, but I do it because I want whats best for the raid out of myself. There's some people who take me up on that lack pushing, but there are other who do because they are in the same boat as me or just don't care about the raid and just want to play with us. Unfortunately we fell behind this tier and my first kill to Lei Shen was in LFR. The fight is pretty much the same, but it felt like a disappointment. Being thrown in with a bunch of random players who you never met and killing a boss you could do one handed, it just felt cheap and undeserving, especially since it's the last boss of the raid.

    Think about it, they blow their entire load in the first month of the new patches release when they release LFR in the same patch. I'd be curious to see just how much the subscription drop off is after the final wing of LFR is released, but I know 3 people off the top of my head who either quit shortly after or continue to log in once or twice a week just to get the rest of their gear. Now these people all have something in common, they don't have much time and LFR is a way for them to see the game progress in a far less time consuming matter. I get that this is something they look forward to, but if they're that uninvested in the game wouldn't having them wait 2 months to cash in on them be an equally financially viable option for Blizzard?

    I know that this will never change and I'm pretty much doomed to repeat my spoiled experience until I eventually put my foot down at the sake of me lacking as a leader, but it was worth a rant just to see if anyone else feels like this is a problem for them too. Thanks for reading the wall of text and let me know if you think this is stupid or I'm just not seeing something right.

    tl;dr release LFR a patch after the raid for it comes out

    PS: if you're going to post after only looking at the tl;dr, try not to assume that I hate LFR. I like what it's there to do, I just don't want to be forced into doing it

    edit: I agree that a patch behind could be too long of a wait, but with they're new release patterns I thought it wasn't that much of a time gap. I still however think it should be released in full 5-6 weeks after the raid is released, I just figured it would be easier to add it in as a minor patch feature. Also, to those who think they're smart by debunking my point of it being released at virtually the same time by saying "lol it is", a week is still the same period of time.

    edit 2: Quit quoting my first line by saying I need to provide evidence for the word "much". If you want your evidence here it is. Even if it was only 1% of the population complaining, that would still be 80,000 people requesting a change. So stop arguing semantics and talk about my actual post subject. Thank you.
    Last edited by Rushro; 2013-07-15 at 04:10 AM.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
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    No thanx..

    It's bad enough, LFR is released several weeks after a raid opens.. Having to wait until next patch, would be counter-productive, as LFR serves as gear-up for raiders...

  3. #3
    They already release it after the raid opens for normal. There's no reason for it to be months in advance, would just make gearing up alts harder, in fact it'd make it kind of impossible. If you have an alt with like a 480 ilvl you'd have no way to get up to around 500 cause nobody does MSV/HoF/Terrace anymore, so you kind of need ToT LFR to get there and be able to raid normal ToT to any decent level.

    There's no real need for it to be released later, you say that they should do it but don't really give any good reasons why. I mean, if you can full clear normal before LFR is even released why does it matter if it's released 2 weeks later or 3 months later?

  4. #4
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    Looking for raid has been a thorn in much of the populations side for some time now. While it is understood that there is still a large amount of players who have found it useful and a great improvement to their monthly subscriptions the fallout it has caused in the higher difficulties has been significant. The gear is often such an upgrade from the previous tier that most non-heroic raiders feel forced to do LFR in order to maximize their characters potential. It is an option whether to do it or not, but by doing so it somewhat spoils the feeling of progression once you jump back into your appropriate raid difficulty. So you have the choice between experiencing the raid how it was meant to be or obtaining welfare gear through means that ruin that experience.

    So the question I ask is this; why is LFR released in the same period of time as the actual raid?

    We already see that it is gated when released, in attempt to let some of the normal/heroic raiders have some time of prestige or to get more than a month out of the subscribers who return to see the new raid and leave. If it is in fact the latter, wouldn't it make more sense to not release LFR at the same time as the actual raid?

    Now this is how it should be changed; LFR should be released in the minor content patches (5.1, 5.3, 5.5) and provide no achievement.

    Doing this will give the players who progress on normal/heroic a well deserved experience of the newly released raid without having LFR taint it. There is nothing rewarding about killing a boss in LFR. I realize there's still a huge difference between killing a boss in LFR and killing a boss in normal/heroic, but the fact is the feeling of progressing through the actual raid is lost. You now know what trash will be like, what traps there will be, what the rooms will look like, the dialogue and lore. I'm sure if you only raid for the progression and could care less about the surrounding raid around you these feelings won't matter as much to you. But to someone who enjoyed raids like Ulduar and Karazahn because of the uniqueness and surprises it held this is everything.

    And this is where the argument "if you don't want it to be ruined, don't do it" comes in. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who wants to do everything in their power to help their guild out as much as they can. This includes learning the fights, getting the welfare gear, and killing bosses that drop legendary quest items if you haven't killed it that week already. If you're progressing slower than LFR is being released you feel almost obliged to do LFR or else you're letting your team down. I raid lead, I don't force people to do LFR for the same reason I don't want to, but I do it because I want whats best for the raid out of myself. There's some people who take me up on that lack pushing, but there are other who do because they are in the same boat as me or just don't care about the raid and just want to play with us. Unfortunately we fell behind this tier and my first kill to Lei Shen was in LFR. The fight is pretty much the same, but it felt like a disappointment. Being thrown in with a bunch of random players who you never met and killing a boss you could do one handed, it just felt cheap and undeserving, especially since it's the last boss of the raid.

    Think about it, they blow their entire load in the first month of the new patches release when they release LFR in the same patch. I'd be curious to see just how much the subscription drop off is after the final wing of LFR is released, but I know 3 people off the top of my head who either quit shortly after or continue to log in once or twice a week just to get the rest of their gear. Now these people all have something in common, they don't have much time and LFR is a way for them to see the game progress in a far less time consuming matter. I get that this is something they look forward to, but if they're that uninvested in the game wouldn't having them wait 2 months to cash in on them be an equally financially viable option for Blizzard?

    I know that this will never change and I'm pretty much doomed to repeat my spoiled experience until I eventually put my foot down at the sake of me lacking as a leader, but it was worth a rant just to see if anyone else feels like this is a problem for them too. Thanks for reading the wall of text and let me know if you think this is stupid or I'm just not seeing something right.

    tl;dr release LFR a patch after the raid for it comes out

    That's all well and good, but what do people do in the mean time?

    There's literally NOTHING for some people to do beyond LFR, as sad as that might be. They might not care for PvP, or can't devote the time to, or even find, a raiding guild. For people that fall under this category, which I would wager are a large majority of max-level players, LFR is the only content available to them. Making them go an entire patch without having anything to do would likely just lead to them quitting... LFR may be a poor way to retain subscriptions, but an even poorer way would be giving people absolutely nothing at all.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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  5. #5
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    What do you say hmmm.. oh right ''Do not fix what is broken'' is all I will say OP in fact it would be a bad move on there part as well losing more subs in most cases.
    Last edited by N-aix; 2013-07-14 at 08:51 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    No thanx..

    It's bad enough, LFR is released several weeks after a raid opens.. Having to wait until next patch, would be counter-productive, as LFR serves as gear-up for raiders...
    I mention that in my original post. Starting in Ulduar, and some would argue Sunwell, Blizzard started adding dungeons that dropped welfare gear that provided players a shortcut in the next tier if they were behind or gearing an alt. This allowed the players choosing to do this to have a separate experience with it being much faster as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    They already release it after the raid opens for normal. There's no reason for it to be months in advance, would just make gearing up alts harder, in fact it'd make it kind of impossible. If you have an alt with like a 480 ilvl you'd have no way to get up to around 500 cause nobody does MSV/HoF/Terrace anymore, so you kind of need ToT LFR to get there and be able to raid normal ToT to any decent level.

    There's no real need for it to be released later, you say that they should do it but don't really give any good reasons why. I mean, if you can full clear normal before LFR is even released why does it matter if it's released 2 weeks later or 3 months later?
    See the above answer, also there are plenty of people who don't clear on normal before the final LFR wing is release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    That's all well and good, but what do people do in the mean time?

    There's literally NOTHING for some people to do beyond LFR, as sad as that might be. They might not care for PvP, or can't devote the time to, or even find, a raiding guild. For people that fall under this category, which I would wager are a large majority of max-level players, LFR is the only content available to them. Making them go an entire patch without having anything to do would likely just lead to them quitting... LFR may be a poor way to retain subscriptions, but an even poorer way would be giving people absolutely nothing at all.
    And thats why bringing back welfare dungeons would provide them with at least some content, or at least continue with the heroic scenarios but allow it to be queued for. I believe the new timeless isle also provides a non raid related experiences that can be done whenever the player pleases which is a step in that direction

    Quote Originally Posted by I make people mad View Post
    What do you say hmmm.. oh right ''Do not fix what is broken'' is all I will say OP in fact it would be a mad move on there part as well losing more subs in most cases.
    It is broken, not for the players who focus on LFR, but for those who feel forced into having to do it. It's similar to the complaints about having to do dailies, but in this case it can actually ruin the experience of the raid.
    Last edited by Rushro; 2013-07-14 at 08:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Pancaspe's Avatar
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    LFR is damn near perfect as it is.

    No need to change it.
    @Ghostcrawler:Some advice: [My pet issue] is why there were sub losses is one of the weaker arguments players use. Players don't have that data.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Korbany's Avatar
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    Delaying the release of LFR would simply lead to more players getting bored and quitting, as they have nothing to do other than LFR. Don't forget that since the release of wow in 2004 only a small minority of players have ever done traditional (normal mode) raiding. The majority of players were/are content with dungeons, easy mode raids (Strat/Scholo 10 man, UBRS, ZG20, AQ20, Kara, Nax 10 man, LFR)

    I do understand the OP's point that some guilds, mostly those struggling with normal modes , would consider doing LFR for upgrades as a requirement. However the solution is not to penalise the majority of the playerbase by delaying LFR, but rather by making LFR and normal modes share the same lockout. That way you choose to do either LFR or normal mode, and if your guild is even slightly serious about progressing in normal mode, then they will choose to skip LFR or face delaying their progress.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    Looking for raid has been a thorn in much of the populations side for some time now. While it is understood that there is still a large amount of players who have found it useful and a great improvement to their monthly subscriptions the fallout it has caused in the higher difficulties has been significant. The gear is often such an upgrade from the previous tier that most non-heroic raiders feel forced to do LFR in order to maximize their characters potential. It is an option whether to do it or not, but by doing so it somewhat spoils the feeling of progression once you jump back into your appropriate raid difficulty. So you have the choice between experiencing the raid how it was meant to be or obtaining welfare gear through means that ruin that experience.

    So the question I ask is this; why is LFR released in the same period of time as the actual raid?

    We already see that it is gated when released, in attempt to let some of the normal/heroic raiders have some time of prestige or to get more than a month out of the subscribers who return to see the new raid and leave. If it is in fact the latter, wouldn't it make more sense to not release LFR at the same time as the actual raid?

    Now this is how it should be changed; LFR should be released in the minor content patches (5.1, 5.3, 5.5) and provide no achievement.

    Doing this will give the players who progress on normal/heroic a well deserved experience of the newly released raid without having LFR taint it. There is nothing rewarding about killing a boss in LFR. I realize there's still a huge difference between killing a boss in LFR and killing a boss in normal/heroic, but the fact is the feeling of progressing through the actual raid is lost. You now know what trash will be like, what traps there will be, what the rooms will look like, the dialogue and lore. I'm sure if you only raid for the progression and could care less about the surrounding raid around you these feelings won't matter as much to you. But to someone who enjoyed raids like Ulduar and Karazahn because of the uniqueness and surprises it held this is everything.

    And this is where the argument "if you don't want it to be ruined, don't do it" comes in. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who wants to do everything in their power to help their guild out as much as they can. This includes learning the fights, getting the welfare gear, and killing bosses that drop legendary quest items if you haven't killed it that week already. If you're progressing slower than LFR is being released you feel almost obliged to do LFR or else you're letting your team down. I raid lead, I don't force people to do LFR for the same reason I don't want to, but I do it because I want whats best for the raid out of myself. There's some people who take me up on that lack pushing, but there are other who do because they are in the same boat as me or just don't care about the raid and just want to play with us. Unfortunately we fell behind this tier and my first kill to Lei Shen was in LFR. The fight is pretty much the same, but it felt like a disappointment. Being thrown in with a bunch of random players who you never met and killing a boss you could do one handed, it just felt cheap and undeserving, especially since it's the last boss of the raid.

    Think about it, they blow their entire load in the first month of the new patches release when they release LFR in the same patch. I'd be curious to see just how much the subscription drop off is after the final wing of LFR is released, but I know 3 people off the top of my head who either quit shortly after or continue to log in once or twice a week just to get the rest of their gear. Now these people all have something in common, they don't have much time and LFR is a way for them to see the game progress in a far less time consuming matter. I get that this is something they look forward to, but if they're that uninvested in the game wouldn't having them wait 2 months to cash in on them be an equally financially viable option for Blizzard?

    I know that this will never change and I'm pretty much doomed to repeat my spoiled experience until I eventually put my foot down at the sake of me lacking as a leader, but it was worth a rant just to see if anyone else feels like this is a problem for them too. Thanks for reading the wall of text and let me know if you think this is stupid or I'm just not seeing something right.

    tl;dr release LFR a patch after the raid for it comes out
    Here's how I think LFR should be changed: people shouldn't be allowed to make annoying, redundant topics about it.

    Why did this pointless drivel deserve its own topic when there are countless other, equally pointless LFR bitchfest topics already wasting space here? Its here to stay and Blizz decides the rules, not people like you. Sorry.

  10. #10
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    And thats why bringing back welfare dungeons would provide them with at least some content, or at least continue with the heroic scenarios but allow it to be queued for. I believe the new timeless isle also provides a non raid related experiences that can be done whenever the player pleases which is a step in that direction
    Scenarios really don't offer enough content... they don't offer gear consistently, they very rarely have new environments... Short of bringing back challenging heroic dungeons, I really don't see any viable avenues for "challenging" casual content to fill the void that currently exists. But people, raiders included, seem vehemently "opposed" to challenging heroics because they don't want to "waste time" gearing up through them.

    Maybe Flex raiding will bring back PuGing; who knows.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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    Kaleredar is right...
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  11. #11
    What happens to the last raid at the end of the xpac when there are no more minor content patches? LFR people just have to skip the ending?

    It is fine as it is, it is already released later, you already can't earn the vast majority of the achievements in it.

    The rest of your argument doesn't make a tonne of sense - while yes people will leave after LFR is released what about people who leave because they have nothing to do without it? LFR at least provides a form of gear progression that is staggered over time and keeps people coming back.

    Your experience is only spoiled if you let it be.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Hooliganz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    LFR is damn near perfect as it is.

    No need to change it.
    -.- yeah sure say that to all the threads that u see daily

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=Rushro;21752106
    in attempt to let some of the normal/heroic raiders have some time of prestige

    a well deserved experience of the newly released raid without having LFR taint it.[/QUOTE]

    You problem should be with blizzard no the players. If they kept the old BC model with many raids and each getting progressively difficult you would have to whine on mmo champ. The difference between LFR, Normal and Hard Mode is the damage in ability X, Y, Z and HP of the boss. If you want actual gating of content you should be advocating the BC model, where the "hardcores" were doing Sunwell, and the "Normals" were doing SSC, Hyjal and BT, and the "LFRs" were doing Kara.

    I am so sorry you are upset about the LFR, but it is not the players fault. Its blizzards fault for making less content in order to create more xpacks and make more money.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Here's how I think LFR should be changed: people shouldn't be allowed to make annoying, redundant topics about it.

    Why did this pointless drivel deserve its own topic when there are countless other, equally pointless LFR bitchfest topics already wasting space here? Its here to stay and Blizz decides the rules, not people like you. Sorry.
    Thank you for not even reading one sentence of my post, as I do not have any problems with how LFR is and I want it to remain in the game. I appreciate you blessing me with your insightful comment.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    Thank you for not even reading one sentence of my post, as I do not have any problems with how LFR is and I want it to remain in the game. I appreciate you blessing me with your insightful comment.
    LFR is the current hot thing to complain about on mmo champ. People are sick and tired of it, and you chose to create another thread rather than adding to an already existing thread. Expect people to be annoyed by it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    LFR is the current hot thing to complain about on mmo champ. People are sick and tired of it, and you chose to create another thread rather than adding to an already existing thread. Expect people to be annoyed by it.
    I looked at the first 5 pages of the forum before I posted this. What I saw was plenty of complaining about the in-game store, selling transmog items, and the alliance victory in the war. I have seen plenty of those LFR posts before and most of them are rage threads, I was just trying to give my opinion on it while also considering others opinions.

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    tl;dr release LFR a patch after the raid for it comes out
    Well then. My sub wouldn't be active just that few months longer. I know alot of people that do what i do and blizzard also knows that. The longer they delay LFR the longer people delay renewing there subs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooliganz View Post
    -.- yeah sure say that to all the threads that u see daily
    "ALL" the threads? ALL THE THREADS! LOL. If they even added up every single person who has ever whined about LFR it wouldn't even add up to 0.5% of the player base.
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  18. #18
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    So you would have the DS raid available in LFR only when the MoP expansion launches. That's nonsense and really quite a terrible idea. I'm personally all for Blizzard making it so that no one must run LFR if they don't need to but apart from that, there's nothing really broken about it as is.

    The argument over having raids as exclusive content is settled. The side that wants them to remain exclusive lost. It's time to grow up, stop making one thread after another about it and move on.

    --------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    I looked at the first 5 pages of the forum before I posted this. What I saw was plenty of complaining about the in-game store, selling transmog items, and the alliance victory in the war. I have seen plenty of those LFR posts before and most of them are rage threads, I was just trying to give my opinion on it while also considering others opinions.
    That's fine. Most of the other threads are closed as unconstructive. As this one will certainly be if it gets derailed.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-07-14 at 09:11 AM.
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  19. #19
    The only issue I have with LFR is that I get the same item from bosses on a couple alts every week. I wish that you only got items you still needed, or perhaps when you won the "roll" you could chose an item from that boss's loot table. If the current situation persists, I wish items were at least trade able so you could que with equally geared friends or geared friends and they could help carry whatever roll they're performing and still give you items!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rushro View Post
    I mention that in my original post. Starting in Ulduar, and some would argue Sunwell, Blizzard started adding dungeons that dropped welfare gear that provided players a shortcut in the next tier if they were behind or gearing an alt. This allowed the players choosing to do this to have a separate experience with it being much faster as well.

    See the above answer, also there are plenty of people who don't clear on normal before the final LFR wing is release.
    .
    If you don't clear normal before the final wing of LFR opens you're obviously not that hardcore of a raider, so why exactly do you care? There are plenty of guilds who hadn't cleared normal when 5.3 opened, so maybe LFR just shouldn't open until the entire next tier opens, right?

    This is a bad idea, there's virtually no reason to change LFR, especially when all you want to do is push it back in release for *literally* no reason. Honestly, haven't seen a single reason *at all* as to why this should happen.

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