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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Clueless / Fix our Rogue please

    Hi,

    first off - I don't know whether or not there is anything to fix at all.
    Our Rogue is a very good player who hardly makes mistakes, knows his class and his movement is also quite good.
    He uses / knows all the tools available to rogues (i.e. shadowcraft ).
    He has been raiding with us a very long time and has extensive progress experience since classic.


    Despite all that, we need your help:

    He thinks that he is doing something wrong. But he can't seem to figure out what it is.

    From what I understand (Simcraft / Other Logs), Assassin Rogues should be in the top end of the Damage log.
    But, just glancing at our logs, he seems to be mid-bottom DPS on most fights.

    Can you please check his Armory and Logs and tell us if he is doing something wrong?

    Why is his damage so low? Or is that normal? Should we stop worrying?


    Information:

    Itemlevel: 538
    Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gasan/advanced
    Shadowcraft: http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/eu...nnash/shogasan
    Logs Overview: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/52053/
    Epeen: http://www.raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/...nash/shogasan/


    Recent heroic logs (last 2 weeks):

    Primordius:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11785&e=12147
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=1033&e=1352


    Dark Animus - Zerg Tactic:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=14700&e=14865
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13116&e=13277
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13785&e=13944
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=12051&e=12211

    He starts at a little Golem, burns it down and then moves to the Boss. He opens up Rings for the Tank.
    If he gets 3+ Ring Debuffs, he spams Feint. For 1-2 Rings he doesn't. He also uses tricks on cooldown on the tank.
    In the 4 logs above he also needed to apply sunder armor to the boss.

    Horridon:

    I have a couple of new logs from yesterday:


    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3053&e=3576
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2243&e=2817
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1582&e=2095


    Council:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3502&e=3885


    Megaera (1-Tank Tactic):

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6598&e=6950
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8608&e=8941


    Ji-Kun

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7688&e=7922 (he died before the fight was over)


    Thanks alot for your help guys!


    Greetz
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-07-12 at 03:01 PM.
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

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  2. #2
    Without looking at the logs and just based on the information you presented in this post, it'd probably be to the raid's best benefit if he tricks a dps. Threat is largely irrelevent (or at least it should be, I've been noticing weird aggro issues lately).

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Without looking at the logs and just based on the information you presented in this post, it'd probably be to the raid's best benefit if he tricks a dps. Threat is largely irrelevent (or at least it should be, I've been noticing weird aggro issues lately).
    He trickses the tank on DA zerg tactic only, cause he (me) is pulling 550k+ DPS..
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

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  4. #4
    From what i can see on your logs he needs to work on his envenom uptime and his rupture uptime. looking mainly at your jinrokh kill because its a fight where rogues really shine. First of all it looks like there was no one in the raid to do sunder armor (except for himself) which of course isnt optimal for him. But i can see a couple of things which he could improve. First of all it looks like it took him almost 20 secs to put up Slice and Dice, he should try to get that up asap. How i open myself: Prepot->stealth->mutilate-> if 2 cps->SnD, if 3 combo points rupture and then put up whichever i didnt put up first.
    2nd of all i can see that he completely stops DPS during the lightning storm, which is up to the player of course but i do not have any problems staying on target with feint up and a healthstone ready in case i fail. Though because he stops DPS here, he lets his Slice and dice and rupture fall, and his envenom uptime is lowered. all of which is really bad for his dps.
    So how do you fix it? well first off dont let rupture fall off your main target ever, clip it at >1sec with 2-5 combo points. Get a tracker for envenom and make sure not to overwrite the envenom buff (except during times with excessive energy and combo points (shadow blades, bloodlust), i useally aim to get 2 mutilates in per 5cb envenom. which mostly leaves me with 5-6 cps for a new envenom, depending on blindside procs, maybe more. If you find yourself where you have to renew your rupture, and you do not have any spare cbs to keep up the envenom buff vanish with shadow focus is a great method to not let your envenom uptime drop for too long (eg. put up 5 cb rupture then youre at 0 cb and low energy, vanish mutilate mutilate venenom) Assasination is mostly about energy/cp management while keeping rupture up. I could go on but i cant tell you much more than what you would find in any normal rogue DPS guide.

    Here is my own log from yesterday.
    world of logs.com/reports/rt-2lo316vczuf351x2/details/2/?s=962&e=1155
    Your kill was 2.57
    And our kill was 3.13 (because my raid failed -_-)
    but i would guess the kill time would about the same if it wasnt for our ionization failures.
    So, i used envenom 24 times with an uptime of the envenom buff of 75%
    While your rogue used envenom 20 times with an uptime of 56%
    Also should be mentioned that i play in 25man team and im naturally gonna do more damage than a 10man rogue cause of more buffs/raid dps cooldowns etc. so dont expect him to do 400k dps after looking at these issues but he can definantly improve.
    Last edited by dnl; 2013-07-11 at 03:28 PM.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input!

    I have edited Epeen Bot in my above link:

    http://www.raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/...nash/shogasan/


    Any feedback on other bossfights besides jinrokh?
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

    Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/plageriemu

    Battle Tag: Riemu#2789

  6. #6
    Just open your Jinrokh parse and look at your rogue's buffs gained. His slice and dice must be near 99.5%+ uptime on any battle, exept, maybe Lei Shen. Also, uptime of Envenom have to be 75%+ on every almost Patchwork-like fight like Jinrokh. He casted Feint 3 times during all battle long, but Feint uptime good to be like 100% during Storm phase(it is like 4+ feint per storm) so healers dont have to heal rogue at all.

    At your council fight his uptime of slice of dice is good, but rupture and envenom is low. He must multidot rupture on Sul, Malak and Marli(on her dark phase) and maintain poisons on them using FoK to get good dps and cleave damage on this fight.

    Sorry for my very bad and clumsy English, I can easily understand it, but it is hard for me to compile sentences.

  7. #7
    Ummm... did you guys not hero on jin'rokh? That's the only log I actually checked.

    -Super low uptime on SnD
    -Full haste reforging
    -Zero Tricks
    -Super low uptime on Rupture
    -Using Burst of Speed

    Other things he can't control:
    -Using Talisman of Bloodlust instead of Renataki's Soul Charm
    -No legendary Cloak

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Please ignore the Jinrok Parse. I shouldn't have included it and have removed it from the post.
    We have a somewhat unutual tactic that requires him to not stand at the boss during this phase. We also don't really care about Jinrokh (bringing in alts, pulling with 9 players etc.). So it's totally possible that we forgot to bloodlust. And that his performance is bad on this fight - mine probably is too.

    --

    Can you please check the other logs? Most importantly Primordius and Dark Animus. Those are the most recent fights and the ones his performance should be at 120%.

    Also, is his reforging/gearing correct for his itemlevel? How is his performance on those fights?

    Thanks guys!
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

    Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/plageriemu

    Battle Tag: Riemu#2789

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Ummm... did you guys not hero on jin'rokh? That's the only log I actually checked.

    -Super low uptime on SnD
    -Full haste reforging
    -Zero Tricks
    -Super low uptime on Rupture
    -Using Burst of Speed

    Other things he can't control:
    -Using Talisman of Bloodlust instead of Renataki's Soul Charm
    -No legendary Cloak
    whats wrong with using BoS ?

    nothing is wrong with full haste reforging since he has 2 rppm trinkets and the meta
    zero tricks is also not the problem since he actualy loses dps himself to get the others the dps

    he needs to work on snd how can you even lose snd ? rupture uptime should be at around 99% better would be 100% but oh well sometimes lag prevents me from getting 100% envenom uptime aim for around 75-80%
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  10. #10
    Burst is technically a damage loss, but I am puzzled how it always comes up as an "issue" in these threads. No one is coming to mmo-c asking for help and the answer is "spec shadowstep". NEVER. I definitely use burst on Jin'rokh, for instance, and make use of it during the ball phase- it greatly reduces the chance I'll fuck up, as my healers have a devil of a time healing the players who RP as Pac-Man that phase or something- I don't want to need any heals if I can manage, and I'll do a lil less dps to up the odds of that happening every attempt. The answer is NEVER EVER "make a nitpicky choice and learn to play perfectly, but in the mean time, screw up and die a bunch possibly holding the guild back".

    Anyway.



    The haste reforge should be fine. Even before you have the stuff that makes haste better, the difference in stats this expansion for mutilate is pretty damned small. In previous times, it was like a 10% difference between the 1st and 2nd place reforges, now it's like 2% max or something- and even that is a large estimate.

    He SHOULD be tricksing dps on cooldown (or near) every fight. There can be exceptions- the rogue can make better use of that energy during certain kinds of cooldown or buff phases, but even then he should tricks right after. Mutilate is not normally a global limited spec, and it's entirely routine to get 180-300k damage out of a tricks. For 15 energy and a global, that's just fine- and it can get higher during real burst phases (skull banner + ascendance on an ele shaman, for instance).

    Envenom uptime is a solid place to look for a rogue who is comfortable with his rotation, but the difference is small. SnD uptime for mutilate should really be full. Make sure he knows that a 1 combo point envenom to keep up slice is better than letting it fall and having to spend 1-5 combo points on putting it back up (though ideally it shouldn't come to that on most fights).

    I'm not familiar with the HDANIM zerg tactic and can't comment on that. But the reason everyone goes to the Jin'rokh parse is because it's the one fight where we think we know the strat and mutilate really SHOULD be on top.

  11. #11
    As other folks mentioned, Tricks should be used as much as possible, on targets that will get the most use from it. That decision is a raid-by-raid decision though.

    Looking at the H Animus logs:

    Shogasan should be using BOTH of their CDs on Dark Animus. The 2 cooldowns are weaker when you split them up, so they should both be saved for the moment he can hit the boss with them.
    Furthermore, Shogasan shouldn't be popping any CDs on an add; if you take a look at the add damage, Shog's damage done on adds is 3rd, but that's because Shog popped CDs on their assigned add at the start, and then ignored them for the rest of the fight like they're supposed to. When I look at this log of add damage at the start, all I see is Shog CRUSHING their assigned add with a CD, and ruining their boss numbers for the rest of the fight.

    Looking at the H Primordius logs:

    Nothing really WRONG here, or at least not on Shogasan's end of the raid. His boss damage is right where he should be pulling, and the adds are being set up so that he can do "the melee job" correctly (sit on boss and not worry about adds). Cooldown usage is spot on as well. His H Primordius logs show that Shogasan knows what to do.
    Last edited by Carp The Fish; 2013-07-11 at 05:37 PM.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    Can you please check the other logs? Most importantly Primordius and Dark Animus. Those are the most recent fights and the ones his performance should be at 120%.

    Also, is his reforging/gearing correct for his itemlevel? How is his performance on those fights?

    Thanks guys!
    well for primodius he did fine dps i guess, he did manage to catch some bad debuffs. he also got some really good buffs so depending on when he took the bad debuff he should be doing really good damage. again low rupture uptime and same for envenom.
    I dont dare analysing a DA log cause theres so much difference in what people do, and who does what.
    But i dont understand why you would ask us to disregard the jinrokh log, since its the most patchwerk-like fight we got in this tier its really where you can spot the root of the problem if there is any. On primo or da, you can get shitty buffs for your class or you can get every single matter swap.

    He is haste spec which is fine, both haste and mastery and viable main stats for rogues, and its pretty much up to personal preferance. As someone else noted, he is using burst of speed, which costs energy and therefore is a minor dps loss, i would suggest shadow step, but again its personal preferance and its only a minor loss.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dnl View Post
    But i dont understand why you would ask us to disregard the jinrokh log, since its the most patchwerk-like fight we got in this tier its really where you can spot the root of the problem if there is any. On primo or da, you can get shitty buffs for your class or you can get every single matter swap.
    You don't understand why, dnl?
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    Please ignore the Jinrok Parse. I shouldn't have included it and have removed it from the post.
    We have a somewhat unutual tactic that requires him to not stand at the boss during this phase. We also don't really care about Jinrokh (bringing in alts, pulling with 9 players etc.). So it's totally possible that we forgot to bloodlust. And that his performance is bad on this fight - mine probably is too.
    That's why.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input so far guys!

    I have a couple of new logs from yesterday:


    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3053&e=3576
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6598&e=6950
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7688&e=7922 (he died before the fight was over)


    --

    If I compare the Top 15 and Top 20 Post of Megaera HC with him, I get the following:

    http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/5...000010#summary

    Buff Uptime on S&D and Envom is Good - almost identical.

    But their average Damage is so much higher. (their Itemlevel is 8 levels higher too)


    Is something still wrong here? Or is it just the gear difference?
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-07-12 at 03:18 PM.
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
    Chars: Prot Paladin / Blood DK

    Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/plageriemu

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    Is something still wrong here? Or is it just the gear difference?

    This should be easily determined with the help of simcraft. Just import each of their armory profiles and compare the results.

  16. #16
    first of all: no caps in hit and exp.
    then he's going for haste but i think that's not the best way to go for him, yet. shadowcraft seems to agree: his mastery-stat's higher value than haste.
    he should really take Renataki's for ToBL (14 Jin'rok hc kills and no trinket? not even through bonus rolls? that'd be really a shitty streak o' bad luck...)!

    i haven't looked into all those logs but the latest Megaera hc kill and CompareBot.
    ofc, 8 i-lvls in average(!) makes a difference. but nonetheless shogasan is pulling just the same dps that i did on my first megaera hc kill and that was back then with an i-lvl of ~530. as the comparison shows, your rogue loses in every single hits/minute department. there are gaps between him and those other rogues, and i think some of those gaps are a little too wide. perhaps he suffers from being energystarved way too often? because that's my next point. take a look at those power gains. again, there is a gap between your rogue and the others. VW aside (it's still rng), his energy gains out of RS is just too weak, in my oppinion. he screws his finishers and/or anticipation stacks.

    all in all, i think, he seems to be paying not enough attention to some details that matter in the end. be it envenom/SnD/rupture uptime (as the others said) or the proper usage of anticipation and finishers in order to get the best possible energy gains. i don't know what it is in the end. perhaps he's just tired of playing a rogue, for you said he's been a rogue since vanilla. sometimes people don't pay enough attention to raiding when they're bored with their class/spec and then their performance becomes mediocre at best.

  17. #17
    Gear

    He appears to be going for haste. This is fine, and it actually sims better, however, he shouldn't really be full haste yet. This is his optimal reforging according to ShC:

    Code:
    Head: HitRating -> MasteryRating
    Neck: HitRating -> HasteRating
    Shoulders: HitRating -> HasteRating
    Back: CritRating -> HasteRating
    Chest: MasteryRating -> HasteRating
    Wrists: CritRating -> MasteryRating
    Hands: CritRating -> HasteRating
    Feet: CritRating -> HasteRating
    Ring2: CritRating -> HasteRating
    Trinket2: MasteryRating -> HasteRating
    OffHand: HitRating -> MasteryRating
    And swap five Agi+Haste gems for Agi+Mastery.

    However, it's usually better just to stay full mastery. Discussion here and here. To easily optimize this, use the Advanced tab in ShC and force Mastery > Haste; remember to adjust exp appropriately too.

    Note that the difference will be minor either way (1-5%) and ultimately is the rogue's choice. Many people like a haste build to speed up Assassination's slow rotation. Others prefer the more consistent and resilient damage of a mastery build.

    He's also missing the legendary cloak, which is pretty huge. I'd try to pick up a Rentaki's over Bloodlust Talisman too.

    Performance

    Looking at Jin'rohk, the first thing is he's using BoS, yet only used Feint 3 times (and severely clipped them). While ShS isn't particularly useful on this fight, BoS does have an energy cost (and therefore, a DPS cost) and he still got hit by 5 lightning balls and died. If you get in real trouble (a line of balls heading for you), pop Sprint and dodge them. Otherwise, roll Feint without clipping and take as few hits as possible while maintaining 100% boss uptime.

    He only got 1.5 Vendettas off. I would open with Vendetta, pop nothing on the first pool (even if you hero there), and pop Vendetta+SB+pot on the second pool when the boss is <35%.

    Rupture uptime was low too (partially due to dying, but he wasn't dead for 18% of the fight and Rupture probably kept ticking for awhile). This should be very close to 100% uptime.

    I just read that you said to disregard this fight (after typing all that ._.), but the tips should still apply in the future.


    Moving on to Primordius. He picked up 3 bad debuffs, one of which lasted over 3m. This is really bad. As soon as Fully Mutated falls, he needs to ask for a dispel if he has harmful debuffs. Ideally, he shouldn't get any in the first place.

    Everything else looks pretty good. I'd try to multi-rupt the little blobs more before Fully Mutated (then just tunnel the boss), but those didn't seem like a huge issue for your group. He also didn't do any damage to the big blobs. Depending on your strat, having melee help on the first and second big blob is usually a good idea. I'm always multi-rupting or killing a big blob before I get mutated.


    Dark Animus... you don't have a kill yet, so finding a good log is a little tricky. It's a very straight forward fight though. As long as he's getting Rings on time and not getting hit by Anima Font, he's probably doing it right.

    It looks like he's killing his add with cooldowns though. I'd recommend that you have him tricks his add to a tank (so one tank holds 3, killing one quickly and another slowly, while the other holds 2, killing one kinda quickly, and the boss) and then sit the boss. You get more tank vengeance and damage this way (if you can keep them alive), and the rogue will do way better damage to the boss.

    He's running BoS again and using it often, which I can't imagine is necessary. If he's going to be late, ShS the tank and clear a side. Just make sure Feint is up before doing this, as he could Step into a Font on the tank. Sprint is also available in emergencies.

  18. #18
    If I recall correctly, there hasn't been a fight where Burst of Speed has been better than Shadowstep. I guess some can make the argument for H-Lei Shen but Sprint + Shadowstep if used correctly works perfectly fine.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryk View Post
    If I recall correctly, there hasn't been a fight where Burst of Speed has been better than Shadowstep. I guess some can make the argument for H-Lei Shen but Sprint + Shadowstep if used correctly works perfectly fine.
    You can make the argument for Jin'Rokh heroic, so you can avoid the lightning storm orbs more easily. and for Megaera to get back quickly after dropping cinders or kiting the beam.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    You can make the argument for Jin'Rokh heroic, so you can avoid the lightning storm orbs more easily. and for Megaera to get back quickly after dropping cinders or kiting the beam.
    We have Sprint for that. You can safely eat some hits with Feint rolling too if you fuck up. Also, the Icy Torrent doesn't target melee and Cinders are usually dispelled immediately. Their hitbox is huge, so there are plenty of safe places to put it/stand afterwards.

    BoS is a crutch (at best) and a DPS loss.

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