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  1. #21
    While I agree with your points that citing a crit as a reason to hit/exp cap is silly (RNG is RNG), it is important to keep in mind that IF you can find gear that is Hit+Exp allocated, you essentially don't scale down the secondaries at all. Meaning that you can inflate your OTHER secondaries (by keeping hit/exp off of them). I don't think that's what Raxxed was saying, but it's a very valid min-max CM strat. I ran with 7.5/10.5 on my Pal and 7.5/7.5 on my DK, and made RB times easily.

    Even so, I don't think OP was looking for realm/region bests, just wanting to get gold. I personally just did golds a few times and quit, as I don't find racing the clock thrilling or creative in a mechanic sense, but that's a discussion for somewhere else perhaps. Comp stacking, subject to brutal RNG with patrol locations, reliance on invis pots, and artificially challenging solely due to the clock?...meh, just not my thing. But I do still need to do them on my monk (even tho the gear is fugly )
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  2. #22
    Well, I was referring to the stats in a 1:1 ratio but min-maxing the gear around how the stats scale down is of course very valid, though also a completely different thing.

    I think to go over the trash caps, and especially going over the spell hit cap on bosses is still a damage decrease over an entire CM even if you can trade 50 haste for 150 exp.

    A majority of the damage you do is going to be a on the trash, simple as that. Getting an additional stat that does not do anything for that majority of the damage, then yields a smaller dps increase than another stat for the minority of the damage is not gonna yield a dps gain unless you can get significantly more of that stat.
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  3. #23
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    don't take anything raxxed says too seriously, seems he just wants to show off his proud rank of ... oceanic 1st prot paladin cm rank, you can be forgiven for taking a breath during that.

    CMs aren't difficult as a paladin, just gear a bit beyond the scaling and if you want to be fancy try to get more exp out of your gear via reforges so it isn't scaled down. If you're at sub 476 ilevel soft cap is fine, by anything higher and it's more trouble than it's worth to not be at your usual hard caps.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    don't take anything raxxed says too seriously, seems he just wants to show off his proud rank of ... oceanic 1st prot paladin cm rank, you can be forgiven for taking a breath during that.
    CMs aren't difficult as a paladin, just gear a bit beyond the scaling and if you want to be fancy try to get more exp out of your gear via reforges so it isn't scaled down. If you're at sub 476 ilevel soft cap is fine, by anything higher and it's more trouble than it's worth to not be at your usual hard caps.
    Lol.

    Also worth considering that a majority of your damage is going to be from Cons and LH, which doesn't require anything but spell-hit, which is another big reason to not worry about hard-capping.
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  5. #25
    Fair points, though another question rises from all of this... Nairobi mentions 7.5/10.5 but where are those numbers coming from? Looking over the exp cap in-game and I can't make anything out of it, lol. So 7.5/10.5 is enough to never miss against trash?

  6. #26
    Since the highest trash mob in CM's is 92, you could go with 12% expertise. This removes all dodge/parries from the trash, you'd still get them on the bosses though.



  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlin View Post
    Fair points, though another question rises from all of this... Nairobi mentions 7.5/10.5 but where are those numbers coming from? Looking over the exp cap in-game and I can't make anything out of it, lol. So 7.5/10.5 is enough to never miss against trash?
    I ran with 10.5 because that's where the chips fell and I had no issues with that. You COULD cap to 15% (if you want to retain your normal reforges), or you could drop down to 12% (to be capped vs all mobs in there), or could go as low as 7.5% for soft-cap. I stuck with 10.5 due to A) being between soft-cap and CM-trash cap, and B) it was just where the numbers ended up.

    Given that the only thing that could get parried going above 12% would be CS/HotR and ShotR ON THE BOSS, it's not a huge concern to most. Majority of your damage in CM's will be A) on the trash packs, and B) Cons/AS/LH, which all do not need any expertise.
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  8. #28
    I guess it all depends on what your goals are. If you want to get golds only, and you already raid, you probably don't need to bother with anything special. I got my golds without changing anything at all from my regular gemming/enchanting/reforging. I went with hit /expertise caps (7.5%/15%) as that's normal for raiding and haste gems.

    It took some time to get a couple instances down, but as far as simply "getting gold" it was np at all.

    If, however you're gearing specifically for challenge modes (for realm first times, etc), then a few things to keep in mind are:

    1) Itemization is everything. if you want to go with a haste build, you can probably find items in every slot that have both haste and a socket. Look at some PvP items as they are perfectly itemized for certain specs AND usually have a socket or two you can use.

    2) Sockets are good. If an item has a socket, then you want it. Doesn't matter if it's the "only" item in it's category with a socket and maybe not as good in itemization, you still want it. Consider the 522 crafted boots as those have TWO sockets. Consider a 2 socket belt, as with a buckle it will give you 3 sockets to work with. The reason for this is because the sockets do not get scaled down. If you can, get a weapon from ToT, as those have a socket (and you can add another from the legendary questline)

    3) Ignore any legendary gems. They do not work there. The ilvl 600 cloak has all 3 stats (AND a socket!) so it's good to have too. The extra socket from the legendary questline works fine.

    4) I second the opinions already presented on hit/expertise caps. The bosses are complete wussies. Trash hits like trucks on steroids. Go for more survival instead so you can pull more and faster.

    Hope that helps!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Lol.

    Also worth considering that a majority of your damage is going to be from Cons and LH, which doesn't require anything but spell-hit, which is another big reason to not worry about hard-capping.
    Especially come 5.4 with the GC change, your main damage abilities are gonna be Cons, LH and AS and J, all 4 requiring only spell hit (technically, J dont even require spell hit)
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  10. #30
    What meta did you guys use?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loonija View Post
    Ghost iron .... trinket with 3 spckets
    Weapon from sha in with the sha socked
    legendary metagem!

    Umm, no, just no.

    For starters, the Sha-touched weapon does NOT scale with stats- you would actually want one of the current Throne of Thunder weapons with a gem socket, and put your best stat gem in that, along with the prismatic socket- maximum stats.

    The Ghost Iron dragonling has 3 COGWHEEL sockets- 600 stats each. Yes, while it DOES give 1800 total secondary stats, and is NOT scaled down, you can't have primary stats in it- and for nearly all classes, a primary stat+proc/usage affect will be the best trinket for challenge modes. As for the Dragonling proc, it'll do about 30k damage before it fades, IF it isn't one shot immediately. A haste/crit proc would provide FAR more dps for a tank in challenge modes then the Dragonling ever could.

    OP, are you going for realm best times, or just wanting to complete full gold for sets? If you just want the transmog sets, your gear will not make ANY difference in your time (Maybe 3 extra seconds). What will make the most difference is your comp, and your ability to cooridinate stuns, AoE, cooldowns, ect (Most of Gold consists of pulling all the mobs between bosses, and rotating stuns and defensive CDs while you AoE them within 30-40 seconds- 2 rotation of stuns lasting for ~8 seconds and a rotation of cooldowns between the stuns.) Lets say, for instance, you have a frost DK, yourself, a boomkin, a mage, and a disc priest. You start pulling with a max-size shield on yourself, and the priest using fade to prevent aggro as he maintains the shield on you. Once you have pulled all the mobs (If it takes you more then 7 seconds to pull the mobs, you are doing it wrong), you use Blinding Light (Disorient), followed by Divine Protection. At this time, the DK will have poped Remorseless Winter, and the Disc should continue doing his best to shield you while you start your rotation. After the Remorseless Winter stun has faded, your Boomkin should pop Solar Beam on the adds, and your Disc Priest should use his barrier on you, and continue healing your ass off. Once Solar beam ends, the pack should be about 40% health, and you start rotating major cooldowns- Pain Supp+Argent Defender, followed by Guardian of Ancient Kings. Should the pack NOT be dead by the time Guardian of Ancient kings expire, Boomkin should use Ursol's Vortex while you kite the HELL out of there- should the pack NOT die after Ursol's Vortex, the Priest's spirit shell should be up, and your divine protection should be up, so you can tank them for another 12 seconds. If the pack of mobs is not dead yet, well, you need some better dps.

    For bosses, pay attention to their mechanics. Bosses are the longest time, but lowest risk of the dungeon- 60% of the time going for gold is spent on bosses, but 90% of wipes are caused on trash.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    The Ghost Iron dragonling has 3 COGWHEEL sockets- 600 stats each. Yes, while it DOES give 1800 total secondary stats, and is NOT scaled down, you can't have primary stats in it- and for nearly all classes, a primary stat+proc/usage affect will be the best trinket for challenge modes. As for the Dragonling proc, it'll do about 30k damage before it fades, IF it isn't one shot immediately. A haste/crit proc would provide FAR more dps for a tank in challenge modes then the Dragonling ever could.
    Hmmm, while I agree with the first part of your post, I don't think I can agree with this. 600 Haste, Exp/Hit/Mast is a pretty solid setup if he doesn't have 2x haste trinkets already to use. STR procs are cool and all, but if you're pulling big in CMs as you should be, your Veng levels will dwarf the procs of any trinkets, especially after downscaling ilvl. The passive haste is far superior to a haste proc. And the dragon itself is utter shit, but if it eats an ability (like it can for Talon Rake on JiKun), it's FAR more valuable than any other trinket. 300k Holy Fire in Scarlet Monastery onto the Dragonling = win.

    Also, while you again are correct that comp is 90% of the success in CMs, I just wanted to touch on this:
    Once you have pulled all the mobs (If it takes you more then 7 seconds to pull the mobs, you are doing it wrong), you use Blinding Light (Disorient), followed by Divine Protection. At this time, the DK will have poped Remorseless Winter, and the Disc should continue doing his best to shield you while you start your rotation. After the Remorseless Winter stun has faded, your Boomkin should pop Solar Beam on the adds, and your Disc Priest should use his barrier on you, and continue healing your ass off. Once Solar beam ends, the pack should be about 40% health, and you start rotating major cooldowns- Pain Supp+Argent Defender, followed by Guardian of Ancient Kings. Should the pack NOT be dead by the time Guardian of Ancient kings expire, Boomkin should use Ursol's Vortex while you kite the HELL out of there- should the pack NOT die after Ursol's Vortex, the Priest's spirit shell should be up, and your divine protection should be up, so you can tank them for another 12 seconds. If the pack of mobs is not dead yet, well, you need some better dps.
    If you really need PSupp, GoAK AND AD on a pull, you're really going to have a bad time. Unless you're talking about something like Battle-horning the entire cathedral or something, there is not one pull that I can think of where I used half of that. Granted, ProtPal is the least equipped to deal with AOE CC/control, but there's really no need for all of that. I mean, logistically speaking, how would you then continue onto the next pack, with all of your 3+min CD's on cooldown?

    I'm all for proper CD planning as a tank in CMs, which you WILL need to do to get good times, since you can't stop and wait for resets, but that's way too much for one pack unless you've just kited/pulled the entire dungeon.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I'm all for proper CD planning as a tank in CMs, which you WILL need to do to get good times, since you can't stop and wait for resets, but that's way too much for one pack unless you've just kited/pulled the entire dungeon.
    I think this about sums it up for challenge modes. Proper cooldown usage mixed in with proper planning and cc (aoe stuns anyway). With my comp i went as far as taking out my AS glyph for the blinding light one, (3 sec aoe stun), but we didn't have a dk for remorseless and its true usefulness was limited. Most of the CM's easily have + 45 secounds or more left over, so re-gemming and forging just to do cms is marginally useful if you're only going for golds.
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  14. #34
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Agree that the ghost iron ling is stupidly over rated on this forum, it's a great way to start gearing and can take a while to replace, but really think about what you're saying in this scenario.

    Hit/Exp don't scale in the CM, and above 502 ilevel you've got it coming out of your ears. Any scaled down haste trinket would have more than 600 haste on it, along with a useful proc, which is the main component of a trinket, hence how the GID was able to get away with having 1800 secondaries at 450 ilevel. So for it to be useful the OP needs to be pretty much a brand new 90.

    Not saying it isn't an option for a new toon, my second CM paladin used it for the clear, but that was because I couldn't acquire anything better before the run started.

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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Agree that the ghost iron ling is stupidly over rated on this forum, it's a great way to start gearing and can take a while to replace, but really think about what you're saying in this scenario.

    Hit/Exp don't scale in the CM, and above 502 ilevel you've got it coming out of your ears. Any scaled down haste trinket would have more than 600 haste on it, along with a useful proc, which is the main component of a trinket, hence how the GID was able to get away with having 1800 secondaries at 450 ilevel. So for it to be useful the OP needs to be pretty much a brand new 90.

    Not saying it isn't an option for a new toon, my second CM paladin used it for the clear, but that was because I couldn't acquire anything better before the run started.
    Lei Shen's and Spark both scale down to 500 haste, but sparks proc is 20 seconds of ~4300 str and Lei Shen's is a 15 second proc of ~2600 str on a 45 second ICD (if I remember the ICD correctly). I'd probably go with Lei Shen's over spark though since I dunno how fast it stacks in CMs.

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