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  1. #261
    Immortal Winter Blossom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Well, I don't know if it really was based on a player idea, but there was this prescient poster who got Flex Raiding right, down to the name, way before it was announced. :P
    Roll the bones!

  3. #263
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    If it's any consolation, millions of people also happen to like Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. Not only is the majority often wrong, but often its taste can be quite awful. That said, Blizzard is a business; and the majority of today is the one it panders to.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Kripparian's idea for additional levels for diablo3 (paragon levels).

    Yeah, that ain't much, and the dude is more than just a dude, an internet persona with loads of fans etc. But the point still stands.

  5. #265
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.
    Tell that to DrSteveBrule who seems to believe that whiners get to dictate the boundaries of the game. I'm quite firmly of the point of view that Blizzard listens too much to the forums and should just design the game they want to design and take the consequences up or down.
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  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Well, I don't know if it really was based on a player idea, but there was this prescient poster who got Flex Raiding right, down to the name, way before it was announced. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.

    I can almost guarantee that there have been many well constructed ideas/opinions from players to Blizz about their dislike of LFR. No company (no matter what they like to sugar coat us with) is going to remove a feature that is liked and used by majority of their player base. That's not good for business.
    Last edited by Winter Blossom; 2013-07-16 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #267
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Has Blizzard ever indicated that one game-changing feature was suggested by any one player?

    No.

    So what's the point of the question? And what does 'game-changing' mean specifically?
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  8. #268
    Immortal Winter Blossom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Has Blizzard ever indicated that one game-changing feature was suggested by any one player?

    No.

    So what's the point of the question? And what does 'game-changing' mean specifically?
    That was to the poster saying that it takes one well constructed post to change something in-game that they don't specifically like or that they think is ruining the game. No game changing feature has been removed because someone did that.
    Last edited by Winter Blossom; 2013-07-16 at 05:08 PM.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Tell that to DrSteveBrule who seems to believe that whiners get to dictate the boundaries of the game. I'm quite firmly of the point of view that Blizzard listens too much to the forums and should just design the game they want to design and take the consequences up or down.
    There's a difference between whine and a well constructed idea and case for it. I like to think most people can tell the difference between the two. Sometimes mistakes will be made, however. Cataclysm says it all.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Has Blizzard ever indicated that one game-changing feature was suggested by any one player?

    No.

    So what's the point of the question? And what does 'game-changing' mean specifically?
    Well, to be fair, Diablo III did get Paragon levels based off of a player suggestion. :P

    But this is WoW we're talking about, so I can't specifically comment on that... but there are several inferences (such as Firelands nerfing/ casual content design in the following patch, ect...) that can be strongly pointing at player suggested feedback in one way/shape/form.
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    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Depends on what you mean by game changing. Things like brawlers guild, challenge modes, scenarios, and proving ground have all been discussed by the player base years before their introduction with some of them only now coming out after eight years of some players pushing for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    No company (no matter what they like to sugar coat us with) is going to remove a feature that is liked and used by majority of their player base. That's not good for business.
    Have Group Will Travel would like a word with you. Just like dungeons which used to be used by a majority as a mainstay it has effectively been gutted and replaced with something else that has shinnier rewards. If Blizzard wanted to do such to LFR they could especially now that we have many more alternatives than we had back in Cata and Blizzard has shown that they can produce these alternatives, but probably wont happen because LFR is a gear hungry beast that needs such a large population just to function and would likely result in cross battle group queuing. Blizzard basically is forced to keep LFR highly popular due to its population requirements. Sadly there are still players who do not even have LFR as an option due to lack of players during certain times of the week.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-16 at 06:19 PM.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Depends on what you mean by game changing. Things like brawlers guild, challenge modes, scenarios, and proving ground have all been discussed by the player base years before their introduction with some of them only now coming out after eight years of some players pushing for them.


    Have Group Will Travel would like a word with you. Just like dungeons which used to be used by a majority as a mainstay it has effectively been gutted and replaced with something else that has shinnier rewards. If Blizzard wanted to do such to LFR they could especially now that we have many more alternatives than we had back in Cata and Blizzard has shown that they can produce these alternatives, but probably wont happen because LFR is a gear hungry beast that needs such a large population just to function and would likely result in cross battle group queuing. Blizzard basically is forced to keep LFR highly popular due to its population requirements. Sadly there are still players who do not even have LFR as an option due to lack of players during certain times of the week.
    I really don't think "Have Group Will Travel" is game changing, and cant be compared to LFR. WoW is a game that's main goal is to advance with better gear. That's it's point. HGWT was a added convenience. It didnt really effect the way we advance in the game, or how we ultimately get better gear.

    It also wasn't removed because one person wrote Blizz with a well constructed idea on how it was bad.
    Last edited by Winter Blossom; 2013-07-16 at 06:28 PM.

  13. #273
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    Large corporate entities often believe the feedback they want to believe and discount the rest. I've always believed that the way Cataclysm was set up was exactly how the top guys at Blizzard wanted the game to be based on what they read about Wrath heroics being too easy. Even GC's blog about dungeons being hard was pretty much an eloquent plea that more difficult group content was more engaging and fun than otherwise. Of course all anyone got out of it was L2P! That's another problem with Blizzard: they believe their player base to be better (in many senses) than it really is.

    It was a lesson hard-earned in Irvine of course.

    I'm fine with the way the game is set up now with a little something for everyone. I do wish there was much less BS on the forums about how the game should only be one thing but that's me. I still think that Blizzard should build the game they want and leave it to whatever happens. The shifting back and forth and constant changes during Cataclysm did more harm than good and made it very easy for people on either side of the difficulty/convenience side to simply say, "OK, I'm done."
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  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post

    It was a lesson hard-earned in Irvine of course.
    Which was to offer options. Cata was very lean and was set up to funnel players into heroics who normally wouldnt have been there in the first place which screwed over everyone else. The average player base is not that bad or other wise every heroic would have been a fail compared to the vast majority of my solo queues being successful. The act of removing normal modes and greatly increasing the rewards from heroics resulted in players who wouldnt even touch WotLK heroics to make their way into Cata heroics and drag groups down. Blizzard gutted grinds severely in Cata. Cata is the first time that non-raiders consumed content within a month or two in large numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm fine with the way the game is set up now with a little something for everyone. I do wish there was much less BS on the forums about how the game should only be one thing but that's me. I still think that Blizzard should build the game they want and leave it to whatever happens. The shifting back and forth and constant changes during Cataclysm did more harm than good and made it very easy for people on either side of the difficulty/convenience side to simply say, "OK, I'm done."
    If Blizzard was to build the game they want and you say that Cata was Blizzard ignoring feedback they did not want to hear then Cata is the type of game that the developers wanted to make. Obviously there would of been more launch content which was due to development resource mistakes that are not the fault of the raiders despite how many like to blame the raiders for lack of non-raid endgame.

    From GCs tweets, what is talked about is the belief is that players will have more fun in group based content that involves teamwork and these players are more likely to be long term players due to building friendships. Cata showed that you cant just throw people into the fire, but interestingly enough Blizzard has gotten players who profusely claimed in Cata that casuals cant get out of fire or should be expected to and the developers are now getting players to navigate a maze. Baby steps and hopefully both Flex and proving grounds can lead the way.

    The back and forth has a strong impact as it did for me going from liking Cata to being bored as shit in MoP despite my game play time not changing and being a handful of hours a week. A large number of casuals wasnt quitting in Cata due to lack of engaging content, they might has as well have found Cata to be fun in comparison. The flip flop does no good. Seems the developers are realizing this and trying to keep changes to certain things by introducing them into small chunks like Flex mode and others without trying to shove the whole population into it.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-16 at 07:26 PM.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuel View Post
    So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...
    You realize blizzard has success rate data, correct? I guess not since you just posted what you posted.

  16. #276
    100,000 people complaining on the forums of MMO-C and WoW's forums combined are still less than 2% of WoW's active subscribers. There are less than 10,000 people whining on the forums at any given moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Hmm their writing style reads as male to me.

    Now you've got me wondering.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    100% agreed.

    When I joined a more "hardcore" guild, I just stopped giving a crap about LFR all together.

    It shouldn't matter to us.
    If your guild is really "hardcore" I assume you are required to have alts raid ready. You are pretty much required to do LFR to gear up New alts to get evne close to being raid ready. Also when Blizzard make the final tier (5.4) have some retardedly OP trinkets, you are pretty much required to grab them just incase you need them, or for some classes, Tier Sets too.

    I dont mind that MR Average joe killed LFR Lei shen, I just want to make sure he is aware that there is a much harder difficulty that others are completing and that he could also complete if he wanted to try hard enough. It just feels like blizzard is okay with Casuals being ignorant of HC raiding, hiding away HC raiding from casuals so to speak.

    Bassically, If I want to push as hard as I can in HC raids, I am gonna be required to LFR for trinkets/set bonus / gearing alts, but if MR Average Joe wants to kill lei shen LFR while being afk and biting his toe nails, he is not required to do HC raiding at all.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    From GCs tweets, what is talked about is the belief is that players will have more fun in group based content that involves teamwork and these players are more likely to be long term players due to building friendships. Cata showed that you cant just throw people into the fire, but interestingly enough Blizzard has gotten players who profusely claimed in Cata that casuals cant get out of fire or should be expected to and the developers are now getting players to navigate a maze. Baby steps and hopefully both Flex and proving grounds can lead the way.
    a couple of variables really made the level 85 tunings toxic -

    LFD - if lfd had existed in TBC, heroics there would have been impossible to complete in an LFD group. it was bad enough filling up a pug with randoms on your own server. you cannot have marked-pull, cc-required, kill-order and aggro-mgmt in a pug where you have no control over who groups with you, and no social accountability mechanisms whatsoever.

    WOTLK - even 3.0.2 heroics were all-aoe, all the time. I don't think they increased heroic trash dmg from tbc levels, numerically. cloth could pull aggro and survive a few whacks. boss mechanics, with very few notable exceptions, could be simply ignored and overpowered/healed through. - and this was at release - by late wotlk, it was literally nothing but a speed race. 2 years of playerbase turnover with this model meant a lot of the playerbase skillset was collectively lost.
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  19. #279
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Because what is happening on the forums is a miniscule part of the whole picture, but it is all that you see.
    People who use the forums tend to be the only people who care enough about the game to voice their opinions and try to make a difference.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Jilor View Post
    I've never understood comments like this. WoW grew in subscription numbers by a very large amount during vanilla and TBC. Admittedly, it was the shiny new toy in vanilla, but it kept climbing despite how few people were actually raiding and the even lower number of people who did Naxx or Sunwell. Yet, somehow, there's an argument out there that that doesn't work, despite the evidence to the contrary. Naxx was huge, 15 bosses. And yet, what, less than 1% of the population, something like eight or nine thousand players ever killed Kel'Thuzad at level 60...out of over six million. Yet somehow, they found the time to devote to developing it and only gained subscriptions. I'm not saying it has to go back to that way, but I just don't find that argument valid.
    Wow's popularity has NOTHING to do with difficult content. It gained subscriptions because it was a popular game and an accessible mmo unlike all other previous mmos. It stopped gaining subscriptions simply because it hit market saturation.

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