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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Most people quit because of Time/Money, I think the close second is probably 'I can't play with friends anymore (either because they quit or guild split and finding a new home together is hard)'. They're not going to go free to play, because the pet store revenue couldn't sustain it; they need repeat purchases and the sub itself if just that - one off purchases of pets, mounts, transmog items, subjective art that not even a big minority will buy are not. So they need to fix the other thing, hense all the talk of 'forced socialisation' with a level of 'LFinstance easymode' and 'premade harder modes'. That's the direction the game is going. And it's a good one imho.

    Also someone mentioned earlier the ease of getting PvP gear; I think they have a good point. In TBC players went and lost a dozen BGs a week to gear up because it was more convenient and easier than doing Heroics. Probably a factor in why it was so hard to get a Heroic group - players were in BGs farming Honor instead.
    You have no idea why most people quit, neither do I. We can speculate why they quit or why we think they quit but in the end only they know. I do agree that Blizzard sees problems and they want to fix them, I just don't see them going far enough to actually fix them and all we'll see are random band-aids tossed on them in hopes to bring players back temporarily.

    The PvP gear in PvE in TBC was the start of all of it too. The gear was so close to actual raid drops for PvE usefulness and with it being 100% guaranteed that you'd get it, it shed light on the "I'm going to take the easier path to rewards" thought of majority of WoW players. It just went off from there.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Just out of curiosity.. how do we know?
    Sorry don't want to come off as being a smart ass... but how many people complain on these boards? How many single accounts complain on the blizzard forums. I doubt this will be 8 million.

    But you are ofcourse right. We cannot know

    I think that there is a small % of people who complain on fora about game decisions. There are very likely a large of amount of players who will always be silent but unhappy with certain game decisions. There is also a large amount of people who would not particularly care what way the game goes. And there will be a large number of people who love where the game is going.

    One fact remains: people who are happy won't likely write that on fora.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    You have no idea why most people quit, neither do I. We can speculate why they quit or why we think they quit but in the end only they know. I do agree that Blizzard sees problems and they want to fix them, I just don't see them going far enough to actually fix them and all we'll see are random band-aids tossed on them in hopes to bring players back temporarily.

    The PvP gear in PvE in TBC was the start of all of it too. The gear was so close to actual raid drops for PvE usefulness and with it being 100% guaranteed that you'd get it, it shed light on the "I'm going to take the easier path to rewards" thought of majority of WoW players. It just went off from there.
    Time/Money is the reason GC gave in a tweet as the main reason, lack of social ties is another, along with "I don't know how to play this guy anymore" in reference to too much change. They have been pretty open about it. Just as he said they now realised players would quit before they upped their game.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    What exactly has it done to the game? You know, aside from adding an option that nobody is forced to do.

    Nothing? Then I doubt it is anywhere near that high of a percentage, since there is no real reason to want it removed.

    And to answer the thread, I imagine he likely discounts these whiny posts because they are completely baseless.

    Also, make no mistake, you guys are a very loud vocal minority, not anywhere near the majority.
    You are pretty much forced to do it now though. If you started a new character, today, no guild, new server etc., but there was one rule - you couldn't use LFR, ever, do you think you'd be able to join a decent guild (able to clear normal SoO by the end of the expansion for example)? I very much doubt it. LFR is now THE gear progression. What happened to heroic dungeons and rep grinds that actually gave decent gear? What happened to getting an entry level set with JP? LFR completely dominates end game gear progression. The only way you can avoid doing it is by staying way ahead of the curve gearwise, but even then you're technically holding yourself and your raid back by not doing it for those trinkets etc.. Furthermore, if it didn't exist, I am strongly of the opinion that there would be other more interesting ways to gear up outside of proper raids.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    And that is why they have single player RPGs, people who want to do things on their own and just queue are trying and SUCCEEDING in changing games people like ME love, I don't go onto other games and try and force my will onto them do I? THAT'S why I am so pissed off.
    You're kidding, right? Or trolling?
    All you've done here is try and force your will onto others. You view the game as yours, and anyone who disagrees with what you want should shut up and go play something else.

    Even the best single-player RPGs end. Nowadays, they end within a month. MMOs don't.
    There is only one thing that we say to the god of death.
    "Take Sean Bean instead."

  6. #426
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    One fact remains: people who are happy won't likely write that on fora.
    On the contrary, no point posting a thread like this on MMOchamp these days since most of the critical/unhappy people have already quit the game or gave up on this site/wow long ago and are nowhere to be seen. The majority who remain still like the game or are the horrendous blizzard-defenders/fanboys who will attack anyone that tries to raise a critical point, or are a mix of the two.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    I find it shocking that 33 year olds are getting worked up over video game features that much.
    By your logic is also follows that all hobbies must only have 1 agegroup right?

    We have a model aircraft club who use the field next to my office twice a week... what agegroup do u steretype them to be?

    Basically, ur an ignorant idiot if u stereotype all videogamers as teenagers and students...

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Just out of curiosity.. how do we know?
    During Q1 2013, the game net-lost an average of 14K players per day. Now many of those were in China, but still, we didn't see anywhere close to that many "I quit" threads per day. Orders of magnitude less, actually.

    So it's pretty darn obvious that most people who leave are not complaining about it on the forums. Where do you think they're complaining, if not there?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So it's pretty darn obvious that most people who leave are not complaining about it on the forums. Where do you think they're complaining, if not there?
    Whereas there is a very large community of forum users on this forum who are ex-wow players, they are the 'un-subbed', they are those people who left the game. A recent thread entitled 'why did u quit Wow?' ran on for many many pages and had hundreds and hundreds of posts. U ignore that group who still use this forum at your peril...

    If u want to get a good idea to why people left Wow then that thread is possibly the best and most accurate statement of fact u can find outside of having access to Blizzards secret data.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Since when does not being vocal on a forum means you are okay with everything?

    It's also pretty rare to stick around on a forum to criticize a game. I am only here because it keeps me from getting bored at work. If I wasn't bored you would never hear me "complain" about a videogame.

    I think this statement of Ghostcrawler is kinda ridiculous when you see so many threads with complaints on the forums about too much convenience. So much that other people complain about the complaining.
    Maybe we need to be extremely specific about what we are argueing so Ghostcrawler can understand us?

  11. #431
    At this point does it matter why people have quit? The main focus to me would be trying to figure out what can work to keep the customers you have right now. Need to stop the outflow before you worry about getting people back.

    This patch coming up is really a hail marry patch with some huge things in it you would not expect to see come out during the last tier.

    VR: Could solve a lot of problems or create a lot of new ones. It's pretty bold to try to it now.

    Flex Raiding: One more mode of raiding.

    Proving Grounds: A new system to try to help players be better at the game.

    Then of course the new raid. This is a lot for a end tier patch and a lot of it seems to a attempt to stop the bleeding. Who knows if it will work but they are giving it a shot.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Because what is happening on the forums is a miniscule part of the whole picture, but it is all that you see.
    Apearently so, however, í've been wondering how blizzard knows what the majority says then? Arn't forums made just for that ... to speak your mind? I've never seen an in-game survey or anything like that. Im sure blizzard think they know what most people want from their game .. (altho sometimes i have doubts ) .. i just wonder where they get their information from.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  13. #433
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    RE: The original point, of course nobody wants less convenience other than those reminiscing about "back in the day" how long everything took to do or, worse, the old Everquest grognards that say how much of a grind THAT was when it came out what 15 years ago?

    I maintain the biggest issue WoW has right now is that they tuned up the difficulty of 10-man raids, according to Blizzard because they had to when removing the shared lockout, and this utterly destroyed many average run-of-the-mill raiding guilds. The genocide started in Cata and, other than Dragon Soul and possibly the nerfed Firelands, has continued to this day. When you force guilds to choose between benching longterm players or friendly and helpful players because the difficulty is so high you can't risk bringing them anymore, when previously you would have had no issues with them, there is a big problem. My own guild recently had to do this with a Mistweaver Monk that we had to put on the bench because the heals just weren't quite enough for us and were causing a wipe. This player was extremely nice, friendly and helpful and was making efforts to improve, but those efforts just weren't enough. If the difficulty scale had been correct like in Wrath, this would probably be a non-issue and while we might have had a bit more trouble than most, we wouldn't have had to basically tell this player "Sorry you can't raid with us anymore, your heals aren't quite good enough and we can't afford to wipe on this anymore, so we're replacing you" because having even one person not performing at 110% means we can't progress at all.
    NOBLESHIELD
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  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    Apearently so, however, í've been wondering how blizzard knows what the majority says then?
    They look at what the players do, not (just) what they actually say. Talk is cheap (and often deceitful), but actions reveal real preferences.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #435
    They look at what the players do, not (just) what they actually say. Talk is cheap (and often deceitful), but actions reveal real preferences.
    This strategy is "high risk, high reward" in finance.
    In other markets, If something is going well, change it (in coaching-jobs too).

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They look at what the players do, not (just) what they actually say. Talk is cheap (and often deceitful), but actions reveal real preferences.
    OMG this is so ignorant I don't know what to say really. And yes this is what Blizzard says too, can you believe it?

    "everyone must love LFR" for example, because it is so popular. It is used so much people most LOVE IT!!!!!!

    Actually and I know I can only know a tiny tiny fraction of players myself... but the players I know apart from 1 do not like LFR at all. They do LFR because it rewards gear and has efficient valorgains...

    They feel it is a braindead experience. And no I am not talking from a heroic pov. I've been in both heroic and casual guilds (casual at the moment). They all say the same... Yes it is a convenience feature for some (even to them). But is it fun and thus preferable? Hell no. Its just a means to an end. You cannot commit to raids and still want to progress your character? Yeah you need to go thru a 45 min of boredom to get it.

    I am sure there are many people who LOVE "raiding" at the level LFR is. I just haven't met them yet apart from 1 player.

    This player loves to raid in that way. For the rest they don't like it but feel they have to do it to progress their character.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    This strategy is "high risk, high reward" in finance.
    In other markets, If something is going well, change it (in coaching-jobs too).
    The actions I was referring to were primarily negative ones. If you present players with high rewards in some content, but they still refuse to do it, you can safely conclude that that content doesn't appeal to them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    OMG this is so ignorant I don't know what to say really. And yes this is what Blizzard says too, can you believe it?
    See my comment above.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The actions I was referring to were primarily negative ones. If you present players with high rewards in some content, but they still refuse to do it, you can safely conclude that that content doesn't appeal to them.

    See my comment above.
    Alright but still... why would anyone want negative aspects in a game?

    I mean lets talk some more about efficiency/preference if you will:

    Example:
    you know you will be rewarded with 5 million (dollars/euro/pounds whatever) íf you walk through a gauntlet of 2 inch nails/spikes. You know for certain that you will survive but you also know you will be severely wounded. Getting that 5 million in this way is very efficient and probably for most preferable vs working your ass off for the next 30 years. I mean your wounds will close and heal but you will still have that 5 million.

    This is Blizzards logic imo...

  19. #439
    I'm not a fan of Ghostcrawler at all. I think his design choices are responsible for the loss of subscribers just as much as fluctuations in the market, there are games such as EvE which have maintained a large consistent player base... It's simply a myth that market changes and consumer expectation changes are responsible for WoW's 'decline', i think its a petty attempt to remove responsibility from the game developers making simply bad design decisions.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Alright but still... why would anyone want negative aspects in a game?
    This thread was talking about how players give negative feedback. Someone asked how Blizzard could get that feedback, if not through the forums. I showed how.

    You DO understand the value Blizzard would place on negative feedback, right?

    BTW, I sometimes think Blizzard approach in MoP of giving people lots of different things to do has a hidden purpose: give people lots of things to do and then see what they actually do. It's a big experiment in revealed preference.

    This is why I'm happy raid participation is anemic -- it confirms for Blizzard that the vast majority of customers are not interested in difficult raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanis View Post
    I'm not a fan of Ghostcrawler at all. I think his design choices are responsible for the loss of subscribers just as much as fluctuations in the market,
    One thing I do blame Street for is making rotations overly complex. Proc and cooldown watching aren't a lot of fun IMO, especially when combined with complicated encounters. Mental decision bandwidth gets overwhelmed.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-07-17 at 12:31 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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