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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    People don't argue for it because they're stupid an don't know what's best for them or the game in general. It's Blizzard's fault for giving into the player demands, and that's why the game isn't as fun anymore.

    Like a stupid little kid who wants to eat candy and cake for breakfast, lunch and dinner (the player base wanting the game to be OMGSUPER accessible and non time-consuming). It's Blizzard's role (as the parent in this analogy) to force us to eat our fruits and veggies (actually getting invested in the game, building a community etc).
    Using the word stupid or comparing the opposing viewpoint to children doesn't add more credibility to your argument.

    Gamers who differ from your viewpoint and playstyle requested a less hardcore raiding environment. They were also valued customers, and the devs figured out a way to split difficulty levels so the hardcore would still have their difficulty, but the other gamers would also enjoy raiding.

    Once again, those gamers are not less valuable than you.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post

    Gamers who differ from your viewpoint and playstyle requested a less hardcore raiding environment. They were also valued customers, and the devs figured out a way to split difficulty levels so the hardcore would still have their difficulty, but the other gamers would also enjoy raiding.

    Once again, those gamers are not less valuable than you.
    Sad it took this long for Flex while Blizzard told the less hardcore and non-guilded to fuck off and do LFR.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    During Q1 2013, the game net-lost an average of 14K players per day. Now many of those were in China, but still, we didn't see anywhere close to that many "I quit" threads per day. Orders of magnitude less, actually.

    So it's pretty darn obvious that most people who leave are not complaining about it on the forums. Where do you think they're complaining, if not there?
    I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. People quit and not everyone writes about it... but that doesn't tell us whether those people, who complain about the game being too convenient, are a minority.

  4. #524
    Convenience has made it a lot easier for me to play even as I've grown up. I was 15 when I started, now 24. I still play the game but in a very different way. Enjoy it a lot though even though I don't use many of the new features. But because of the convenience, I can still get a good night of playing even in my limited time.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The bet with Cataclysm was that people would rather up their game than leave. They lost that bet. GC's recent tweets to that effect are telling and something that only a few people are actually talking about. I think there's a lot of other stuff that pertains to Cataclysm that is both relevant and displays a huge amount of confirmation bias on the part of Blizzard's management but Occam's Razor and all of that: If the core belief behind the Cataclysm design was that people would pick up their game instead of leave then that explains a lot. It was just wrong and I don't have any idea if they polled for that.
    Looking back on it now though, did they really lose that bet? Or did they just lose a single hand then fold on the table too quickly? The number losses weren't anything huge like we have today. There were other reasons for people leaving at the time beyond those we are talking about as well I'm sure. The relatively small number they lost due to "get better or quit" seems like it would have been the better choice in the long run.

    And I do agree with their attempted fixes being far worse than what was shipped. The thing is though, they HAVE TO understand that now and they still are reluctant to do anything major about it. I know I've lost faith in their ability to put this game on the right tack again in my eyes.
    Brunnorx/Sofex - Zul'jin US PvE - 14/14H T16 - 9 hr/wk - Exiled Legion

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Because the purpose of a game isn't to glorify its own mechanics. The primary purpose of a game is to make money. Having a game reward skill (or other player attributes) is only useful insofar as that enables to game to fulfill its primary purpose.
    the primary purpose of a game is to provide entertainment and competition.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    For instance, some people really enjoy raiding, but also enjoy more relaxed environments. They enjoy playing their class the way they like, not the way the numbers tell them to play. At best, they might perform at 85% of their potential, but that doesn't bother them at all. They pay $15 to play the way they like, and they feel the game should allow that kind of freedom.
    There was nothing stopping them from playing how they wanted. The problem is when they want to play how they want AND do everything in the game at the same time. No one cares how you do your dailies or what spec you are in BGs or 5mans and that is where the content for those people should be. When they want to do raiding, ie a step up in difficulty, they need to step it up a little bit.

    Use any other competitive hobby out there. Car racing, football, jogging, BMX, chess, etc etc, you can't get to the next level in any of those things without improving. You paying for your running shoes, car, bike, board/pieces or whatever only allows you to do the activity. If you want to do all the activity has to offer there is some form of practice or natural skill you need to have to do so. The same should be the case in WoW, but it isn't.
    Brunnorx/Sofex - Zul'jin US PvE - 14/14H T16 - 9 hr/wk - Exiled Legion

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    There was nothing stopping them from playing how they wanted. The problem is when they want to play how they want AND do everything in the game at the same time. No one cares how you do your dailies or what spec you are in BGs or 5mans and that is where the content for those people should be. When they want to do raiding, ie a step up in difficulty, they need to step it up a little bit.
    That would be nice if the 5-man content wasn't soloable by tanks. In the famous preach video no one even noticed that his rogue wasn't doing any damage because most likely everything was dead before he even got within melee range of the mobs. If you want casual players stuck in 5-mans then give them 5-mans to do. Unfortunately that's not what Blizzard did. Instead they decided that their end game was going to be all raid all the time. That means they have to give casuals raids to do as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Use any other competitive hobby out there. Car racing, football, jogging, BMX, chess, etc etc, you can't get to the next level in any of those things without improving. You paying for your running shoes, car, bike, board/pieces or whatever only allows you to do the activity. If you want to do all the activity has to offer there is some form of practice or natural skill you need to have to do so. The same should be the case in WoW, but it isn't.
    That doesn't even make sense. Most of those activities aren't hosted, and when they are it's purely in a competitive sense. Blizzard runs WoW as a business, not a league. If there were such a thing as league raiding I would agree that only the best should participate. Come to think of it, that's how the WoW PvP leagues work. When you're a business attempting to entice the largest number of subscribers possible, however, making all your content exclusive makes no sense. You can get 16 raid bosses in three months at the expense of heroic dungeons, but the flip side of that is the rest of the customers need something to do too. That's why there's LFR.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-07-17 at 11:38 PM.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    WoW is a business...
    wow is not a business, it is a game.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeic View Post
    wow is not a business, it is a game.
    You know what I meant. Blizzard, the company responsible for developing and hosting WoW, is a business. WoW is their game, but the servers on which it is hosted are part of a business. MMOs can't separate the two. MMOs aren't like chess tournaments that you open to a select few. You can't compare WoW raids to televised NFL games that are consistently viewed by millions of fans. They're more like restaurants where patrons come and go at will. No patrons = no money.

    If you insist on making comparisons, however, let's do that. Everyone who plays chess gets a king, a queen, two bishops, two knights, two rooks, and eight pawns. New players aren't told that they have to make do with a king and eight pawns until they get a few wins under their belt, at which point they gradually acquire the rest of their pieces, but that's pretty much what you're advocating for when you insist that only raiders should get good gear with set bonuses. Each chess board doesn't come with rewards for the best players; that's left up to organizers of tournaments. Why should Blizzard provide you rewards just for playing their game? This is another reason these analogies never hold up.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-07-17 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Svagis View Post
    Convenience has made it a lot easier for me to play even as I've grown up. I was 15 when I started, now 24. I still play the game but in a very different way. Enjoy it a lot though even though I don't use many of the new features. But because of the convenience, I can still get a good night of playing even in my limited time.
    exactly. most people are in this position now. people have jobs, school, kids, lives. this game is built for casuals because casuals run the game now. the hardcores make a small percentage now. hell look at whos downed TOT 10m. not much at all.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Khanis View Post
    Erh, removal of responsibility much? lol.
    Who added the changes and content? Blizzard.

    They don't have to make changes unless they wanna.
    Unless they want to attempt to placate, and therefore hang onto, a population that never stops asking for increasing amounts of said convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Because the purpose of a game isn't to glorify its own mechanics. The primary purpose of a game is to make money.
    The primary purpose of a game is to entertain. The fact that many can make money is of real benefit of course, but that isn't the primary objective. An un-entertaining game makes no money.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The primary purpose of a game is to entertain. The fact that many can make money is of real benefit of course, but that isn't the primary objective. An un-entertaining game makes no money.
    You have it backwards. The primary purpose of a MMO is to make money. The best way to make money is to make the game entertaining for the largest population possible. I agree that an unentertaining game makes no money, and that's why Blizzard strives to make the game entertaining. By that same token, however, a game that only entertains 10,000 people in the world isn't going to make as much money as a game that entertains 10,000,000 people.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The primary purpose of a game is to entertain. The fact that many can make money is of real benefit of course, but that isn't the primary objective. An un-entertaining game makes no money.
    No. The primary purpose of the game is to make money. Providing entertainment is the means by which it attains that primary goal.

    If the game provided entertainment, but didn't make money, it would be a failure.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    Please don't take offense to this, as I intend no offense, but have you ever taken a statistics course? 1% of 8 million would be an amazingly huge sample in which to draw data from. Very few studies even come close to utilizing that many people. Now, the real debate is whether or not that sample is truly representative of the population. Do forum posters have different characteristics and desires than non-forum posters?
    I'm pretty sure anyone interested in getting accurate statistics would draw from better sources than an open forum. That fact alone makes what you just said incredibly ignorant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    ???

    Who said anything about creating a game around?

    Forums are here for a very good reason... TO DISCUSS THE GAME.

    That means all the good and all the bad things about Wow.

    And believe it or not every game has parts which alot of its players hate on... and that part in Wow is LFR. Like i said, the fact LFR has become the most well discussed issue of Wow in its history certainly shows that. 2 years of the forums pumping out pages and pages of discussion about LFR.

    If u want to put your fingers in your ears and pretend that these forums dont prove there is a problem which needs sorting out then ur welcome to live in your own fantasy world.
    What you and others like you seem unable to comprehend is that what you consider to be a problem other players consider to be good for the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    This is why Im so vocal about Ghostcrawler's stupid "Button bloat" debate. We don't need 4 abilities mixed into one, that only hinders strategy and forces players into "the rotation"
    Just as we don't need 4 buttons for the sake of having 4 buttons. Why can't it be a balance of both? In fact I think that is something GC has spoken about quite often and the difficulties involved in trying to compromise but for some reason all you people hear is "hurr durr letz dumb down the game".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I wasnt saying LFR is a problem.

    Im saying that such a collosal amount of forum discussion about 1 subject shows that something is wrong. Something needs addressing. It may just requitre a minimal tweak. But the truth is that LFR in its current state is not right.

    Ru really trying to say that 2 years of constant and relentless forum discussion on 1 part of Wow shows that everything is going great?
    You are right it does need to be addressed. Anyone making threads whining about the existence of LFR need a perm ban from both forums and game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    You portal directly to ToT quest hub... Is that port where you are sitting? No, but still a portal to it.
    Uh...that would be because that zone doesn't exist in the open game world. It wasn't done for player convenience.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    You are right it does need to be addressed. Anyone making threads whining about the existence of LFR need a perm ban from both forums and game.
    Game ban seems excessive. On the other hand, a well-known anti-LFR poster (who I will not name) on the official forums did just apparently have his entire posting history deleted.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    So just ignoring problems is your answer? That isn't a good way to do things, in any aspect of life. People see a problem and address it. Those who the problem helps fight for it and say those of us complaining about it are whiners or are special snowflakes or anything to deflect the root of the problem on to us as people while completely ignoring the actual issue we talk about or the argument we use.

    There are very few posts I see in which someone pro-LFR/"accessibility" has a well thought out and logical argument that doesn't revolve around insulting the poster. Don't get me wrong, there are some that make a good argument without being insulting, but there are tons who just do things like "ur no speical snowflak now lol loser" kind of posts and it makes your side just look awful. There are some on my side who do the same thing, but there don't seem to be as many. It might just be a proportional thing or something else, I don't know, just pretty classless imo.
    LFR isn't a problem except in the minds of those whose only enjoyment is in takin content away from others. If you don't like LFR don't run it and d something you enjoy. Other people doing LFR doesn't make existing challenging content cease to exist. If you are so god damn good at the game go do that and show us how awesome you are and stop fucking whining about LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    It's hard to be positive and think about things that can be added to the game when something like LFR is still left in as is. LFR is, to me, what is wrong with the game currently. I'm not saying LFR itself is what is wrong, just all of what LFR IS is wrong. The ease of access, the no account-ability, the log in for 10 minutes and log off, the no work epics, etc. All of what LFR is is the issue, not LFR itself. LFR could work and the way LFR does work is Flex mode raiding pretty much. I do think Flex is their answer for fixing LFR and I hope it really does happen, but Flex is what I think LFR should be. An easier normal mode that doesn't require as much effort but does require some.

    Maybe they fuck up Flex mode and make it horrible, I don't know, but I think Flex is what LFR should be and that would make a lot of players like myself happy if Flex became a permanent thing and LFR went away.
    You are exactly what is wrong with this game. Attitudes like yours is toxic and does nothing but drive people away from the game.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    There was nothing stopping them from playing how they wanted. The problem is when they want to play how they want AND do everything in the game at the same time. No one cares how you do your dailies or what spec you are in BGs or 5mans and that is where the content for those people should be. When they want to do raiding, ie a step up in difficulty, they need to step it up a little bit.

    Use any other competitive hobby out there. Car racing, football, jogging, BMX, chess, etc etc, you can't get to the next level in any of those things without improving. You paying for your running shoes, car, bike, board/pieces or whatever only allows you to do the activity. If you want to do all the activity has to offer there is some form of practice or natural skill you need to have to do so. The same should be the case in WoW, but it isn't.
    They wanted to raid, but they didn't care about getting to the "next level". I asked in a previous post, but I'll ask it again: Where in the ToS did it say WoW should be about getting better and better constantly? That's how YOU play. Why impose that on others? They deserve to have raiding content, too.

    But there should be a reward for those that consistently get better and raid hard. That's something that should be there, just to give incentive and have that "whoa, they did that?!" factor. That still exists! Where's normal Ra-den? Where are LFR raid titles? Even heroic gear has a different color to separate them out.

    People who raid for different reasons still deserve to raid. They deserve a raid instance that's easier and enjoyable for them. And those that raid hardcore deserve a challenge with some exclusive perks. This all exists.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    I've been waiting for this response as it happens in every thread. There is an endless supply of gamers. There are more gamers coming of age each year and there will be more next year. Gaming has become main stream and thus TONS of players flock to games daily. That can be older people finally accepting gaming or it can be kids growing up or anything in between. Nvidia did a random post about numbers of computer gamers over the years and we are at the all time high right now. To say that there aren't players now but there were 5 years ago is just plain dumb.

    As a designer, if I were losing tons of players daily, I would look at the complaints and see why some people are leaving. People who say things are good and such aren't the ones leaving, thus their opinions, for the time, aren't overly important if you are trying to stop the bleeding. Personally, I'd toss up a ton of polls and such to try to find the reasons for people to stop playing. Toss them in the ingame mail system and give a pet or mount for completing the survey or some free game time, or something everyone actually wants to make sure it gets done by most people.

    It just doesn't seem like they are trying anything. I guess that is what upsets me most. They aren't even acting like they have a problem. They are making it seem like they are prefect and have no faults ever. I would LOVE a post from GC or someone important just saying "We know there are some issues right now and are really working to try to make the game a better place for everyone. If you guys would just bare with us over the next little bit you'll see what we've been trying to get done". Anything like that would be much appreciated by almost everyone in the game. It doesn't say what is the problem or what they are working on or anything, it just says they are in fact aware of things going on, which it doesn't seem like they are at all.
    Mmo gaming has always been a niche market and Wow is the exception to the rule. Typically mmos only get at most a million subscribers and for a majority of their product life rarely go above 500-750k. Anyone who was going to play Wow has already played it with very few actual new players coming into the game. It isn't an indictment on the quality of Wow nor is it an indictment on the mmo market as a whole. It is just a niche market with limited opportunity for growth. New gamers doesn't necessarily mean new mmo gamers and most certainly doesn't necessarily mean new Wow players. The game is 9 years old and it has gotten as big as it is ever going to get.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    You are exactly what is wrong with this game. Attitudes like yours is toxic and does nothing but drive people away from the game.
    I appreciate that you agree that different raiding mindsets and playstyles also deserve content. However, don't attack his attitude as the reason people are leaving. That's completely inaccurate. Look, brunnor is advocating the idea that raiding is about getting better and performing at a high level. That should exist in the game. But so should less performance-oriented raiding. They are equally valuable.

    Edit: Actually, I'm glad that WoW presented such a challenge in Vanilla/BC. Performance-oriented playstyles found a challenge. That is a huge boon to the game, and I'm glad brunnor-like players continue to spear-head heroic raiding. It really just needs to be acknowledged that their playstyle is not the only way to raid, nor is it more valuable than other styles. They all need to be addressed.

    If we can arrive at a place where brunnor-like players acknowledge that other raiding styles should have content, then we can continue with a discussion of how Blizz introduced that content. But the statement that 'other players should get better, because that's what raiding is all about' is just bullshit and shows a complete misunderstanding of people and why they play.
    Last edited by Manhands; 2013-07-18 at 01:38 AM.

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