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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    You are right it does need to be addressed. Anyone making threads whining about the existence of LFR need a perm ban from both forums and game.
    Thanks god ur not in charge at Blizzard or Activision... people like u who stick their fingers in their ears and live in a fantasy world r not good for the health of the game. MMOs r forever moving and changing and its plain ignorant to think that every single decision in moving that game forward is correct. I am releived that Blizzard dont employ people like u who are dont understand how progress works.

    I will repeat the point u fail to understand, thankfully most other readers of this forum will understand. That point is that LFR has become the most discussed aspect of the entire game, 2 years which have generated more forum pages of discussion than ANY other aspect of Wow. That shows loud and clear that something isnt right, something needs addressing.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Games are made for entertainment, and not everyone derives entertainment from the same aspects of a video game.

    Plenty of games on the market cater to what you're referring to, why not just go pick one of those?
    Better yet why not stop demanding that content be taken from others and actually get off your ass and do the challenging content you people endlessly claim you want to do? Who the hell do you think you are to tell others to play something else when this game was developed and marketed from the get go to be an accessible and casual game? The game you people claim to want NEVER existed at least not as Wow. If anyone needs to switch games it is the wannabe hardcores.

  3. #543
    PLAYERS rarely argue for less convenience. He's probably right. The other side to it is that there are plenty of ex-players who argue for less convenience. Thus the "ex"

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Eadoin View Post
    I'm still not really sure why WoW has this perception that it's too casual friendly. Compared to early TBC when we had to farm 100 elixirs a night + flasks + food maybe, but the highest level content is harder then everything in TBC sans-Sunwell.

    MoP has content for both hardcore (TBC-style) and casual (WLK-style). Why is this a bad thing? Why is more content ever a bad thing?
    Because the content these people want involves excluding others.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    That shows loud and clear that something isnt right, something needs addressing.
    Indeed. The people unhappy with the presence of LFR need to go away.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Indeed. The people unhappy with the presence of LFR need to go away.
    Im not unhappy with the presence of LFR, i am just intelligent enough to know when such a loud outcry is present for so long it shows that something needs looking at. It muight just be a minor tweak, a clever person to make a few adjustments.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    MMO's don't exist in a vacuum. Player behavior actually does have an impact on the game.
    People running LFR has ZERO impact on your enjoyment of the game. None. Zilch. Nada. You can continue to claim this stupid bullshit all you want but we all know it isn't true. I'm sorry but I have no respect for anyone who thinks they have the right to deny content to others. It isn't your game and it isn't your call and as I said it is NONE of your god damn business what others do.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Looking back on it now though, did they really lose that bet? Or did they just lose a single hand then fold on the table too quickly?
    I tend to think so. If you fold, maybe you don't lose but you don't win either.

    They can't go back. The only thing they can do is move forward with what they have and make adjustments. I don't mind the model of something-for-everyone although I believe while they've take decent care of the easy and difficult pieces of that, the middle portion is still a mess. Really subjective though on where that middle is. For those who are really good, the middle is likely in a very different spot than for those who log in a couple of times a week to run LFR.

    I'm apparently alone here in thinking that they are going to take a huge chunk of the game--but not all of it--to F2P sooner rather than later. I honestly believe that just about everything we see going forward should be viewed in that light including all of the external stuff like cash stores, virtual realms and the rest. To me, it's obviously preparation for what is a probable expansion of the lower levels of the game to another revenue model. That's my bet. We'll see how it pans out in the next year or so. But I think it will be sooner rather than later.
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  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    u totally didnt read what i said right...

    Ru seriously telling me that all of those points u listed have more threads, posts and pages on these forums than LFR discussion?

    Ofc not so stop talking bullshit.

    LFR has more thread, posts and pages of discussion than any other issue EVER in Wow history...

    Example - how many pages of MMO CHamp history must i go back to find any discussion on Hybrid tax? 20 pages? 50 pages? and how many threads about LFR will i find in the past 50 pages on these forums?... i rest my case.
    People whining incessantly about something doesn't mean there is a problem. If there is a problem it is that players like you won't shut the fuck up about LFR.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    WoW brought all possible MMO players to WoW. It didn't bring all possible gamers. It is now trying to bring all possible gamers and its pushing away the all possible MMO crowd. That is why tons of people play all the new MMO betas and such, they are looking for something better than WoW, mostly.

    There is a rule on what an MMORPG is about as it's been that way for years. Thinking inside the box got WoW 12 million subs, thinking outside of it has brought that number to 8.3 million. When WoW was an MMORPG by definition it thrived fully.
    I don't think you understand the definition of mmo. It has nothing to do with difficulty or making things difficult for the sake of difficulty. Yes there are hardcore mmos but Wow was never developed to be one and as pointed out repeatedly the entire intent of Wow was to be the opposite of hardcore.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Sad it took this long for Flex while Blizzard told the less hardcore and non-guilded to fuck off and do LFR.
    Source? They acknowledged that there was a gap between LFR and normal and that there weren't the proper mechanisms for players to improve (if they wanted to). They *could* have nerfed Normals to solve that. Instead they added an entirely new, cross-realm, scaling raid difficulty. They also added proving grounds, presumably to help solve the same issues. That doesn't sound like a team saying "fuck off and do LFR."

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Leveling that is done in less than 12 hours by anyone is too quick. That's great it takes you a while cause you do other things, but those of us who do this as a primary hobby shouldn't be screwed out of a good experience because you think it takes too long. A bigger appeal doesn't mean a better game. That's the thing a lot of people don't get... just because something is popular doesn't mean it is good and just because something gets done a lot doesn't make it popular.
    Yeah no. Don't even try pulling that Mcdonalds popularity bullshit. People don't pay for things they don't like. Honest to god it really is just that simple.

  12. #552
    I wish half the people here arguing about all this stuff played EverQuest or Ultima Online. Then they would realize that WoW was popular because of it's convenience. It got more popular the more convenient it became. The first big drop in subs occurred because of removal of convenience. The second big drop occurred for the same reason, as MoP is still a decent amount less convenient then WOTLK.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladar View Post
    Now hes just downright lying. People have been complaining since vanilla, yes vanilla with the gear available in the 20 man deemed to good vs the gear in 40 man and the special quests in dungeons (dungeon tier 1.5). There was more complaining in TBC with heroic badge gear, etc. Players have been arguing for the middle of vanilla. GC saying players dont complain means hes lying or totally disconnected.
    Or maybe just maybe it means it is the players that are disconnected since they can't seem to comprehend anything anyone from Blizzard says to save their life. That is NOT what GC said and you people need to stop twisting it around.

  14. #554
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Im not unhappy with the presence of LFR, i am just intelligent enough to know when such a loud outcry is present for so long it shows that something needs looking at. It muight just be a minor tweak, a clever person to make a few adjustments.
    I've said this before but it's worth repeating that the loud outcry over LFR at this point is a relatively small group of people who have been talking to one another for a long time now. Same with the convenience/difficulty debate. The noise made is all outsize to their actual numbers and counting threads or posts doesn't get you anywhere meaningful. I went and looked and the last 10 LFR threads I've closed were started by a grand total of 3 people and one of them had started five threads. And the fact that in most of those threads, you see the same exact people showing up to say the same exact things really makes them irrelevant to what the reality actually is. You're there, I'm there, Xanzul is there, you know the rest. It doesn't mean anything any longer.

    I remember on the Blizzard boards when someone was crowing about how many posts they had racked up in the various lengthy threads about CRZ. Just to pass the time I picked a couple of people that agreed with that in thread #3 (I think) and counted up their posts in the previous thread. Both of them had something like 100+ posts each in those threads. And that is meaningless and why you can't rely on forums to tell you much of anything other than "some" people are feeling this way about something.

    The bigger point which gets lost in conversations like this is that Blizzard is interested in feedback but it's not a voting situation. A lot of people don't remember that.
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  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I wish half the people here arguing about all this stuff played EverQuest or Ultima Online. Then they would realize that WoW was popular because of it's convenience. It got more popular the more convenient it became. The first big drop in subs occurred because of removal of convenience. The second big drop occurred for the same reason, as MoP is still a decent amount less convenient then WOTLK.
    There is a fine line. Sure, sure, even the most hardcore of people can appreciate some levels of convenience... when WoW launched having quests after quest after quest to continue leveling was unique for it's time, where other MMOs expected you to camp zones and grind mobs until you leveled. I appreciated that convenience a lot.

    But the line is drawn as soon as the convenience starts to come at the cost of immersion and community-feeling. Subdrops are in my opinion coming from both ends, when convenience is removed the mainstream casual playerbase starts hooking off, and the hardcore nerdy fantasy gamers hook off whenever they feel they can't really immerse themselves into the world anymore or become part of a persistent community.

    If WoW had launched in 2004 -with- all the convenience it has now, it would've failed. Because the dedicated "hardcore fantasy" gamers that are looking for that epic feel and persistent immersion and community would've heavily rejected the game, queuing from a menu just overall doesn't suit them (even instanced dungeons already tend to be criticized). "Casuals" might've hooked unto the game, but they are very fickle customers and they would've left very soon again, they're like a locust swarm jumping from game to game every few months.

    I assume that the current playerbase composition of WoW looks something like this:

    20-25% hardcore gamers (not necessarily top raiders or top pvpers, but just people that login multiple hours every day): Slowly losing subscribers because LFD/LFR makes a community feeling hard to attain.
    80% casual uncommited gamers: Leaving, joining, leaving, joining, leaving to try another MMO or multiplayer game. Unpredictable uncommitted subscribers who (due to getting bored) also slowly decrease in number over time.
    Last edited by Anarch the Subduer; 2013-07-18 at 02:03 AM.
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  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Ghostcrawler's job is basically to insult his customers on Twitter.
    No his job is to develop the game not pander to whining idiots who don't even have two brain cells to rub together. He doesn't have time for inane bullshit arguments based on false premises designed solely to obfuscate constructive discussion. Anyone who finds anything he says insulting is more than likely not posting in order to have a discussion but was looking for a fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    They dont know when to stop.

    Convenience is great but not to the point where its World of Portalcraft. Where you might as well be sitting in a menu lobby while you wait to do shit.

    They went miles over the top.


    Also its GC so what did you expect.
    This is only a lobby game if you treat it like one. It is a player problem and not a design problem.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    I don't think you understand the definition of mmo. It has nothing to do with difficulty or making things difficult for the sake of difficulty. Yes there are hardcore mmos but Wow was never developed to be one and as pointed out repeatedly the entire intent of Wow was to be the opposite of hardcore.
    I was around when vanilla launched, and it was really not a soft game. So whatever the developers' intentions may have been, and whatever comparable games may have been like, you still had to have much thicker skin to play in vanilla than you do now. The product is undeniably changed, drastically so, from its conception. I don't really know how someone who enjoyed the first half of World of Warcraft could also enjoy the second half, or vice versa, without their tastes changing along the way. That is of course assuming you are not some undiscriminating consumer of whatever is put on your plate, as long as the right person puts it there...

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    People whining incessantly about something doesn't mean there is a problem. If there is a problem it is that players like you won't shut the fuck up about LFR.
    U may not fukking agree with all the 'whining' and 'hostility' against LFR but that whining and hostility exists whether u like it or not... that sir is the ONLY fact which makes me right and u wrong.

    I havent said if i agree or disagree with it.. ive said this backlash demands Blizzard to act..

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    ive said this backlash demands Blizzard to act..
    But it demands no such thing, your desperate wishful thinking notwithstanding.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    A very large minority were so pissed they simply left (20% of the player base).
    Different people have left for different reasons many of which have nothing to do with the game at all. People need to stop trying to attribute subscriber loss to their pet issues. It just makes you look ignorant.

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