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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I remember on the Blizzard boards when someone was crowing about how many posts they had racked up in the various lengthy threads about CRZ. Just to pass the time I picked a couple of people that agreed with that in thread #3 (I think) and counted up their posts in the previous thread. Both of them had something like 100+ posts each in those threads. And that is meaningless and why you can't rely on forums to tell you much of anything other than "some" people are feeling this way about something.
    Here, Moana, i think ur very observant... i tend to agree with u. Something is in the pipeline...

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    If WoW had launched in 2004 -with- all the convenience it has now, it would've failed.
    I disagree. While I don't think the game would have had as much longevity since it would have had even less room to start moving down the convenience slope, it would have been extremely popular.

    Most of WoW's success didn't come from MMO players, it came from all those guys playing SC1, D2, WC3 that got hooked because Blizzard was a AAA company putting out a much cooler looking and easier EverQuest. Remember, back then it 500k players was considered the peak of success for the MMO genre. WoW blew that out of the water because it was accessable to those that DIDN'T want a "conventional" MMO. WoW was popular because it was like the amusement park of the genre while every other game was a weekend job.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Why don't they just slip a little survey into your mailbox every 6 months or so, then they can get real feedback and we don't have keep saying "vocal minority".
    Because they get the same data through other means. They don't do design by democracy and just because some players want something in game doesn't make it good for the game.

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Different people have left for different reasons many of which have nothing to do with the game at all. People need to stop trying to attribute subscriber loss to their pet issues. It just makes you look ignorant.
    ru ignorant enough to think that LFR had zero to do with the millions who have left Wow since LFr introduction?

    Im pretty sure that a section of that group who have left will have some whose reasons were heavily connected to LFR. Ofc its totally impossible to measure how large or small that group is, but its foolish and ignorant to try to pretend LFR had absolutely nothing to do with the everyone whose unsubbed since LFR was introduced.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I disagree. While I don't think the game would have had as much longevity since it would have had even less room to start moving down the convenience slope, it would have been extremely popular.

    Most of WoW's success didn't come from MMO players, it came from all those guys playing SC1, D2, WC3 that got hooked because Blizzard was a AAA company putting out a much cooler looking and easier EverQuest. Remember, back then it 500k players was considered the peak of success for the MMO genre. WoW blew that out of the water because it was accessable to those that DIDN'T want a "conventional" MMO. WoW was popular because it was like the amusement park of the genre while every other game was a weekend job.
    Depends how you look at it. I believe it would not have been able to 'hook' the hardcore mmo players that wanted to immerse themself into a second life. And the rest of the playerbase, the casuals etc. would've been too fickle to keep hooked up for long.
    Freedom without Socialism = Plutocracy
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  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    WoW only started losing players faster than it was gaining them when Cata hit. That didn't even happen during the year long time we were stuck doing ICC runs. It was very clear Cata was full of garbage people did not want.
    Please realize Wow hit market saturation during Wrath. There was no subscriber increase for nearly 2 years and it was only due to China getting Wrath that subscriptions hit 12 million and before that the only substantial increase in subscriptions was at the end of TBC with 11.5 million. Subscription numbers have little to do with quality or difficulty of the game and have far more to do with other factors entirely beyond Blizzard's control such as the age of the game, competition with other mmos and a changing market not to mention the players themselves changing. Again trying to attribute subscriber loss to your pet issue just makes you look ignorant and whats worse shows even you don't think your opinion can stand on its own merit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Correct, yet they still make decisions based on this "minority" feedback.

    That's infuriating. They really do listen to who cries the loudest.
    And yet we still have LFR and cross realm zones.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Depends how you look at it. I believe it would not have been able to 'hook' the hardcore mmo players that wanted to immerse themself into a second life. And the rest of the playerbase, the casuals etc. would've been too fickle to keep hooked up for long.
    I still disagree. There was not enough MMO players flocking to the game for it to really be the driving factor behind the "hook". All my friends in EverQuest played for about a month before they went back to EverQuest.

    Like I said, most of the hype behind WoW came from the cemented fanbase on Battle.net, and a rich history of three RTS games. Word of mouth did much of the rest, and the high reviews helped from that point, a lot of it focusing on how "easy" and "accessible" the game was compared to the competition. "MMO players" had little to do with it, and wouldn't have been large enough of an influx to really be a hook for anything.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgesh View Post
    So freaking what, you're a lead game designer you're suppose to have vision. This is such a ridiculous comment.


    This just show's you can't think past what you can see, this is a big sign of you having no imagination and having no vision that would create greater depth and It makes me want to get out of this Blizzard ship as fast as possible though still hoping that I don't have too. How WoW xp 5, D3 xp2 and Project titan will be handled and directed will tell me if its time to put the nails in the blizzard coffin.

    You can suck up to as many people as you want to keep them playing but that doesn't mean you'll make new fans. Ugh... I can't freaking believe this guy was in charge of the game for 4 years!!! I think Samwise would do a much better job than him, given that he doesn't transform to some cynical prick and lose real ideals.
    I think most of the armchair developers in here would be lucky to even have Blizzard look at their resume much less hire them. As I said before GC was hired because he had the experience and qualifications for the job. You can dislike him as much as you want and disagree with him as much as you want, he is still infinitely more qualified to make decisions for the game than the whole bunch of you combined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Which is super, duper, cooper hilarious because when I write a GM ticket they generally give me the cut and paste of "sorry we cannot help you with you problem, but please fill free to post on forums, to make changes to the game." Funny.

    I'll say that yes, the minority complains and most just play the game. But again, if I'm always referred to forums for changes or suggestions then who do they listen to?
    Why is that funny? GMs aren't developers and don't have the ability to change the game for you. They direct players with suggestions to the forums because that is where those who can change the game will be able to see it. It is simply astounding to me that players get butthurt over this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.
    They aren't getting rid of LFR. No amount of suggestions or "brilliant" ideas is ever going to convince them that taking content from others is ever a good idea. Get over it. It isn't happening. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    If it's any consolation, millions of people also happen to like Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. Not only is the majority often wrong, but often its taste can be quite awful. That said, Blizzard is a business; and the majority of today is the one it panders to.
    Something you people need to get straight is that taste is subjective. No one is wrong in what they like. It isn't possible.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    People running LFR has ZERO impact on your enjoyment of the game. None. Zilch. Nada. You can continue to claim this stupid bullshit all you want but we all know it isn't true. I'm sorry but I have no respect for anyone who thinks they have the right to deny content to others. It isn't your game and it isn't your call and as I said it is NONE of your god damn business what others do.
    Before you get even more emo on the topic, I'll point out that you're barking up the wrong tree. My 'raid' time in this expansion has entirely consisted of LFR, so no, my own personal entertainment of the game is indeed not impacted by other folks running it.

    I'm not requesting that anyone else be denied content, I'm pointing out that all things have an effect on all players in this game, often very indirectly. LFR most certainly does have an impact on other aspects of the game, and there are statistics to back this statement up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No. The primary purpose of the game is to make money. Providing entertainment is the means by which it attains that primary goal.

    If the game provided entertainment, but didn't make money, it would be a failure.
    For a game to make money, it absolutely, positively needs to be deemed entertaining, first and foremost. Everything stems from whether a game is entertaining or not. One is a necessity, the other is a hopeful result.
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  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    I think most of the armchair developers in here would be lucky to even have Blizzard look at their resume much less hire them. As I said before GC was hired because he had the experience and qualifications for the job. You can dislike him as much as you want and disagree with him as much as you want, he is still infinitely more qualified to make decisions for the game than the whole bunch of you combined.
    So taking ideas from mod developers who probably aren't as experienced and qualified is bad?

    Still waiting for the 'level number' to appear besides my quest in the quest log just like my mod

    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    They aren't getting rid of LFR. No amount of suggestions or "brilliant" ideas is ever going to convince them that taking content from others is ever a good idea. Get over it. It isn't happening. Ever.
    They removed old 1-60 and certain content that many people kept doing even at max level, what does that say about 'removal of content' hmmm?

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    If your guild is really "hardcore" I assume you are required to have alts raid ready. You are pretty much required to do LFR to gear up New alts to get evne close to being raid ready. Also when Blizzard make the final tier (5.4) have some retardedly OP trinkets, you are pretty much required to grab them just incase you need them, or for some classes, Tier Sets too.

    I dont mind that MR Average joe killed LFR Lei shen, I just want to make sure he is aware that there is a much harder difficulty that others are completing and that he could also complete if he wanted to try hard enough. It just feels like blizzard is okay with Casuals being ignorant of HC raiding, hiding away HC raiding from casuals so to speak.

    Bassically, If I want to push as hard as I can in HC raids, I am gonna be required to LFR for trinkets/set bonus / gearing alts, but if MR Average Joe wants to kill lei shen LFR while being afk and biting his toe nails, he is not required to do HC raiding at all.
    Most truly hardcore players will do whatever it takes to have an edge and don't sit around whining about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Very true, but there are millions who don't post on forums and just leave...............In my opinion Ghostcrawler is a moron and needs to go.
    Thankfully it isn't up to you. If anyone needs to go it is people with your attitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Personal opinion here but I think they don't remove it because

    1) They are afraid to EVER admit when they screw up

    2) You can't put the genie back in the bottle, what is done is done, kinda like flying mounts.
    Flying mounts much like LFR were a positive addition to the game. Neither is being removed so let it go already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Just because people like something doesn't mean it's a good thing for a game or whatever else.
    And just because people dislike something doesn't mean it is bad for the game either. I'm just absolutely floored that you can say something like that not realizing how hypocritical it is.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Your right, they just quit instead.

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  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Yep, we sure did, we made players lazy and not want to improve then try to pug in or join raiding guilds to fill spots...............yep we sure did that! We made people who were happy not raiding and just doing other stuff in the game bitch and complain about wanting to raid...........yep we did that! We also made it so those who wanted to raid weren't good enough so they bitched and complained about it being too hard and not being faceroll! Man we are the devil!
    Have you noticed the demands for raid nerfs have stopped? Have you noticed when Blizzard adds new challenging content there isn't anyone saying nerf it? Ever think to consider things like LFR has given players options meaning people can get the content they want without it being at the expense of others? I was a staunch supporter of Blizzard implementing challenging content during Cata and to this day I still am and my main reasoning for it was NO ONE should have content taken away. Not the hardcores and not the casuals. There is absolutely ZERO reason for either camp to be bitching and whining right now and the fact you people are incapable of ever shutting the fuck up about LFR is just sour grapes proving it was never ever about having challenging content it was all about exclusion. Every single last one of you can take a hike and I'm ashamed I ever defended any of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    and here we have mr binary - with all the answers. I am curious - why did cataclysm lose subs sharply after release? was it related to the content, or purely unrelated matters, like it being a 7-year old game or whatever?

    just wondering if you are consistent in maintaining that difficulty has zero relation to subscription retention rate, or you only say this selectively.
    This isn't rocket science folks. People quit the game for many many different reasons not all of which have ANYTHING to do with the game. Cata had several significant issues and there was no single magic bullet issue that was the only reason people quit. Stop it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I would argue that it is Blizzard giving players conveniences that has ended them up in this sub decline.

    With the amount of conveniences we have right now, the content that keeps players playing for long periods of time (which is tedious by definition) becomes obsolete/barely played at all while everyone jumps on the convenient content, finishes it and leaves. Blizzard is doing it to themselves and seem to be enjoying every moment because they're more than making up the loss of subs through their pet shop.

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    Blizzard is responsible for catering towards specific playstyles over others. They have catered towards individual play over working together time and time again. It is very much Blizzard's fault for the way the community is today.
    No it isn't Blizzard's fault players abuse quality of life changes to the game. I said it before and I will say it again, this is only a lobby game if you treat it like one. LFD was meant to supplement player formed groups not replace them. LFR was meant to provide an option for players who can't commit to a raid schedule, not replace normal/heroic raiding. Every single thing in game in terms of progression still requires group play and group effort and requires building and maintaining a community. Nothing Blizzard has done has changed that. NOTHING. The only thing that changed is that players are so butthurt over things like queues they have decided to let the community rot in retaliation and blame Blizzard for the problems they created for themselves. It is flat out childish.

    What's worse is in response Blizzard has implemented new challenging content like challenge modes and heroic scenarios that don't have a queue system and the exact same people bitching and whining that the queue system exists are screaming bloody murder that they don't have it for this new content. Why should Blizzard listen to ANY of you? None of you know what you want nor even have a clue what you are talking about.
    Last edited by xanzul; 2013-07-18 at 03:10 AM.

  14. #574
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    But the line is drawn as soon as the convenience starts to come at the cost of immersion and community-feeling.
    So the line is drawn around entirely subjective criteria. Quite a trick for anyone to pull off and decide where an actual line might be when there are several million of them residing in various places and cultures around the planet.
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  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Actually it isn't US excluding people it is their SKILL and their being satisfied with not improving adding on their excuse making as to why they can't (see refuse) to improve or do normal raiding.
    So why not let the unskilled have LFR and leave normals for skilled players? How is this a problem in any way whatsoever? It is the very reason Blizzard hasn't been nerfing raids. You are butthurt not only that they have an easy version of raids but that they have lower quality versions of "your" gear. You are flat out lying to claim excluding others isn't a main component of the complaints about LFR and accessibility and even Blizzard has straight up said this as well. They called all of you on your bullshit and has made it clear they aren't going to put up with it anymore. Notice they have been locking the LFR complaint threads? There is a reason for that.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Have you noticed the demands for raid nerfs have stopped?
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Have you noticed when Blizzard adds new challenging content there isn't anyone saying nerf it?
    There have been several threads asking for the celestial challenge to be nerfed.

    Once SoO opens, you can be assured that requests for nerfs to normal will happen, despite 2 easier modes now being in place beneath it.
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  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSwirl View Post
    Your right, they just quit instead.
    In one sense it's true that the vast majority of WoW players have quit, because many more people have quit WoW than are currently playing it.

    On the other hand, lots more new players/victims keep signing up, and overall active subscribership is still high (as in more than the rest of the game's genre combined) even though it is declining.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    If people don't want to be good at something why do it? I never suddenly got a hair up my ass to go try and play football because I had no desire to be good at it! If people want to raid they should be a good player! If they don't want to be good at it do other things!
    Why are you so invested in what others do? If they aren't in your raids and they aren't making demands to change your raids why do you give a fuck what they are doing? LFR allows Blizzard to put the difficulty back into raiding and rather than be thankful for that you bitch and whine and moan about players who never would have raided with you in the first place are doing LFR and having fun. Get the fuck over yourself.

  19. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Not really.



    There have been several threads asking for the celestial challenge to be nerfed.

    Once SoO opens, you can be assured that requests for nerfs to normal will happen, despite 2 easier modes now being in place beneath it.
    Requests for nerfs to normal will happen quite justifiably because some encounters are bugged/overtuned.

    The fact that an easier version of a bugged or badly tuned encounter is available doesn't make that encounter not bugged or badly tuned.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    if you have an interest in something and want to go far in it you need to IMPROVE, stop trying to twist my words around and go all hyperbole.
    Oh my god. The lack of self awareness here is astounding.

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