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  1. #581
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    So the line is drawn around entirely subjective criteria. Quite a trick for anyone to pull off and decide where an actual line might be when there are several million of them residing in various places and cultures around the planet.
    True. The mainstream playerbase obviously loves being able to quickly queue for a dungeon or a battleground, but as endlessly is repeated by now already, it comes at the loss of community feeling. No more effort and reward for getting together with people, making friends who you can depend upon to do dungeons together... Arguably you can also say that LFD made the game more toxic, because grouping with 5 friends probably wouldn't include someone insulting you for clearing too slow, as opposed to grouping with 4 anonymous randoms.
    Last edited by True Anarch; 2013-07-18 at 03:28 AM.
    "Anarchism is famously opposed to the State, while at the same time advocating planned administration of things in the interest of the community."
    Today, anarchists dedicated to these goals often support state power to protect people, society and the earth itself from the ravages of concentrated private capital. That's no contradiction. People live and suffer and endure in the existing society.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by DiegoBrando View Post
    This thread once again shows what kind of people play WoW nowadays. It is pointless to argue anything on this forums, because you get overrun by Blizzard apologists/little kids using their circular logic and flawed analogies. I just find it funny, during Cata when heroics were supposedly "challenging" (hint: they were waay easier then TBC) people cried their eyes out on the forums. It really showed what kind of a playerbase WoW has been attracting since 3.0. A playerbase you don't want to acommodate your game to.

    The subs are dropping though, and that's all that matters in the end. Because this new generation isn't used in paying through the majority of an expansion, but to pay for 2 months then come back 1 year later again for 2 months to see what's "new". And Blizzard has been acommodating them since 3.0. Just so they can play this solo game for a month and unsubscribe.
    Who the hell do you think you are? if anyone is a "little kid" here it is people like you who are butthurt over LFR and can't let it go and continually cry about it even once Blizzard has made it clear they will NOT be removing LFR.

    Get.
    Over.
    It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    If people want to raid they should be good enough to raid yes? If they aren't and don't want to try and be good enough then they shouldn't raid..........which is what LFR is full of, people who like to ignore mechanics and do 20k dps, facerolling to epics.
    And yet they are in LFR and tend to stick to LFR and don't ruin your raids. Again what is the problem here? The people in LFR weren't raiding at all prior to LFR so I'm really confused as to what the actual issue is here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    If you keep the players who stay all expansion long and ignore the ones who stay for 2 months out of an expansion and maybe come back during a big patch you'd make more money, it's always better to keep stable people vs once in a while subbing in a game like this.

    Oh and if they went back to TBC model or even WOTLK I bet you'd see more raiders come back and stick around.....you know........back when Blizz could spot 12 million subs not "We are bleeding subs"
    You do realize hardcore raiders are usually the ones who only subscribe long enough to clear content right? Casual players tend to play longer than hardcores and subscribe for longer periods of time. LFR gives them something new to do in addition to what they were doing before which means they have more to do and have more reason to stay subscribed longer. You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about do you?

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Or perhaps you are doing a terrible job at perception. Just because you see people complain on WoW forums, MMO-Champ forums, etc does not mean a lot people are complaining. For instance let's say wow has 8million people, 1million between various forums (for instance MMO has ~372k). Now if every single one of the 1 million people complained you would still only have 12.5% of the people complaining about this. Would that 12.5% be worth it to drastically change things back when the remaining 87.5% are content?
    Except you have no way of knowing the the other 8 million people are content or not, if they care or not, or if they will even see the changes or not, Because somebody shows complete and utter disregard for any public form of communication, does not mean their opinion defaults to negative regarding every single point brought up.

  4. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    You do realize hardcore raiders are usually the ones who only subscribe long enough to clear content right? Casual players tend to play longer than hardcores and subscribe for longer periods of time. LFR gives them something new to do in addition to what they were doing before which means they have more to do and have more reason to stay subscribed longer. You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about do you?
    Erh. I don't agree with this assumption at all. Last quarterly report specifically mentioned how uncommited the casual playerbase was to remain subscribed.
    "Anarchism is famously opposed to the State, while at the same time advocating planned administration of things in the interest of the community."
    Today, anarchists dedicated to these goals often support state power to protect people, society and the earth itself from the ravages of concentrated private capital. That's no contradiction. People live and suffer and endure in the existing society.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I dunno, what did they have to do in Vanilla, BC, WOTLK before LFR when they WEREN'T bleeding subs?
    You mean when the game wasn't nearly 10 years old and there weren't more options for casual mmos including free to play mmos? Again there are a lot of reasons why people may quit the game. Not everyone is some butthurt kid upset someone is wearing his epics.

  6. #586
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    This just in: casuals ruining MMOs.

    Majority of casuals don't even use forums, Blizzard probably ignores most feedback and just keeps tabs on sub losses after patch updates.

    The road only gets worse from here my friends, for us 1% anyway. I'd love for it to revert to something less glorified facebook game app but alas this is what happens when the devs 'pick a side' and stick with it. Whatever makes more money.

    I still enjoy the game but ... meh, panda's, LFD, LFR, etc. all screams children and laziness. Let's just give everyone everything for zero effort because hurrdurr I don't want a 2nd job argument holds soooo much ground. Then why do we have quests, or anything that requires effort for that matter?
    Last edited by Lazuli; 2013-07-18 at 03:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    What he is saying is that once you decide what level you want to be at, you should work towards it. Take jogging for example, if you goal for jogging is get in a little better shape, then no problem but it still takes effort. The catch is when you are on your normal jogging to get in better shape then you decide you want to run a marathon without running more. You fail miserably if you do that. So the logical step after that is to re-evaluate your goals.

    WoW's logical step has turned in to crying about how hard it is to run a marathon and demanding that you be given something just like a marathon but requiring little to no effort to complete but still getting a similar medal to those who run the normal marathon.

    If your goal in WoW is to raid and see content, then do it. Don't bitch and moan and want things easier to accommodate you. This is a massive game that accommodates to all types of players and just because it doesn't specifically hit your exact time frame or effort or anything doesn't mean it needs to be fixed to make it right for you.

    People's goal seems to be easiest epics possible and that is just a crappy game model to base a game around.
    When are you people going to get it through your thick skulls that the people running LFR weren't raiding AT ALL before LFR? They are NOT the same raiders you raid with today. They are different players who had a multitude of reasons why they weren't raiding who wanted to be able to do some form of raiding. What they do has ZERO impact on your raids. It has ZERO impact on your progression. It has ZERO impact on your enjoyment of the game. I'm sorry you can't mock them any longer and lord your epics over them but that is just too god damn bad now isn't it? It is absolutely sickening the attitude you people have towards this game and people who have different play styles. Blizzard isn't catering to that mentality any more and thank god for that. I can only hope it drives every single last one of you out of game for once and for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    It's like using a god mode cheat in a video game and bragging you beat the game and it was easy after you bitched about how hard it was til you found the cheat code lol.
    Who is bragging about beating the game? Jesus christ. Just lock this up already. It is a shit thread built on a shit premise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But they WERE bleeding subs then. It's just the influx made up for it. What happened in Cataclysm is the NET change in active accounts went negative.

    I know lots of people who dropped the game in BC, Wrath, or even Vanilla. There are a lot of ex-players out there.
    These people will never ever accept that a large part of the 20 million people who have quit the game did so during the holy and sacred vanilla/tbc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    Have you actually seen options on unsubscribe page? Most options are similar to "game is too difficult" and few options like "lack of time". That's it. So the only real options are ether something is too difficult or RL stuff. There is an option similar to "I don't like direction where game is heading", but no option to specify what exactly player doesn't like. (at least it was like that last time I used that form. Now I use only game cards that don't subscribe me, so there is no option to unsubscribe) Results of such poll are useless.

    So no, Blizzard don't know why people quit because people in charge of collecting data are incompetent.
    That form isn't the only source of data. Much of their metrics don't even come from voluntary feedback but from how people play the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    this is a really great post.

    only would add 1) the 4m (is it less than 4now?) western subs is only possible just due to the huge inertia of wow being THE mmo new players try - how many vanilla/bc players are left? 50%?

    2) wow would have gotten some high sub interest early on classic if today's game went out then just due to war3's success and the storyline, but yeah, the game would have bombed.

    3) i often say that while Kotick is death for a complex mmo game, he is a great businessman. I just don't think McMMO is necessarily the only viable model that they could have taken with wow after the merger.
    As per the merger agreement between Vivendi Games and Activision and as per Activision-Blizzard's company bylaws, Blizzard Entertainment would maintain their autonomy they had prior to the merger. Kotick can't do a god damn thing without a majority vote of ATVI's board of directors and with Vivendi holding 62% that means Kotick in essence answers directly to the CEO of Vivendi just as Morhaime does and did prior to the merger. Nothing has changed in how Blizzard is run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Right on on everything. Blizzard's shifted it's business model to providing for a new playerbase, one that's not likely to stick around.

    I'll add that going back to the older playstyle of truly investing yourself VERY long term in the game will hurt it more than help it now as the vast majority of the playerbase has either evolved or been replaced with players enjoying the conveniences and jumping in and out of the game.

    While the quoted post wasn't really biased or opinionated at all, I'll inject some of my own in saying that Blizzard has really gotten to shooting itself in the foot by ensuring maximum short term profits very much at the expense of long term profits/loyalty. I'm more than willing to wait another 4-6 years to see what they have wrought.
    What makes you think the 12 million subscribers during Wrath were all the same people? This game has had significant subscriber churn from day one and it isn't due to Blizzard fucking up the game or catering to the wrong people. This is a video game not a way of life. People will stick around as long as the game is fun but make no mistake about it they WILL leave at some point regardless of what Blizzard does or doesn't do. People really need to accept subscriber loss is a reality that simply can not be prevented.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    Source? They acknowledged that there was a gap between LFR and normal and that there weren't the proper mechanisms for players to improve (if they wanted to). They *could* have nerfed Normals to solve that. Instead they added an entirely new, cross-realm, scaling raid difficulty. They also added proving grounds, presumably to help solve the same issues. That doesn't sound like a team saying "fuck off and do LFR."
    I posted the quote a month ago, let me look for it. In one of the blogs GC mentions that going nto MoP that normal mode dungeons will be tuned tighter for guild groups in mind and LFR will be for those who find normal mode too challenging. Well this meant that the lower end guilds got bumped out of normals and the gap between LFR and normals increased. Blizzard thought these players would be happy with LFR, but their data is proving otherwise.

    My use of words are a bit strong but that is effectively what the developers did by increasing the gap between LFR and normals in MoP. The developers made attempts to drive away the PuG player base into LFR which resulted in the lower end guilds being hurt along with the PuG community of casuals who prove that one can be a casual and not commit to a schedule and see content.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    actually, I think the entire 'make raids puggable' attitude that started with 3.0.2 was imposed from above. there is a blue post (chilton?) saying that naxx 3.0 wasn't tuned as hard as 'we' (blue) would have liked. Given how easy wotlk heroics were on release, how easy outdoor questing was, etc., I think they were told to make the entire game accessible to nearly the entire playerbase, and the way they did this was just by nerfing mob damage across the board. wotlk heroic trash damage appeared to not have numerically increased from tbc lvl 70 heroic levels, despite health pools almost doubling.

    Accessibility was literally a mantra with kotick, there is an early 2009 interview with him where he talks about an ATVI game being released and goes into some detail on how they were making the game much more accessible to a larger group of people (potential customers). At the time I thought about how similar it was to how wotlk had been tuned - I think he told blizzard to go to that church (accessibility) too. (I know there is a cult movement here which thinks the atvi ceo doesn't have any ability to give broad market direction for their products to blizzard).
    Nope sorry but you are full of shit. Blizzard has had autonomy ever since Vivendi bought them. No one tells them to do anything as far as design philosophy goes. There is no big meanie evil bean counter forcing Blizzard to casual up the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Ok but when Blizz made 5 mans "Challenging" the LFR liking crowd bitched..........so again, who's fault is it?
    What you people are unable to comprehend is that it isn't that people don't want challenging content to exist, it is that they want options in how challenging content is for them. Not one single casual has ever said lets get rid of heroic modes. None. Not one single one. What they do want however is an option for casual versions of content and that's fine just as it is fine for there to be hardcore versions of content. Everyone gets what they want without it being at the expense of others. I really just can not fathom how this is a bad thing especially considering how the demands for nerfs due to limited options made life miserable for the hardcore. LFR is what is preserving your challenging raid content and yet you want to remove it.

    Yes 5 man heroics are faceroll again but we have challenge modes now. Same goes for scenarios and from the looks of it Blizzard is adding solo content with scaling difficulty in Proving Grounds in the endless mode. Now that Blizzard has come up with solutions to handle zone population issues there is no reason we can't have group quests and elites back in open zones and I fully believe we will get exactly just that in the next expansion. Some of you really need to step back and put some thought into this because of Blizzard's decision to appeal to a casual audience they now have the resources to give us more varying types of content for all types of players. No one needs to be left out and nothing needs to be taken from everyone. The state of this game is better than ever for those seeking a challenge and the only "problem" I can see here is that Blizzard is no longer catering to this exclusionary attitude some players seem to have that is a relic of the past and needs to stay there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    The small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority does not communicate with developers at all, but clearly these people who don't use the forums at all want more and more convenience. Ghostcrawler and people in this thread know this because.... uhhh.... they read minds? No, no, I mean... they read the signs!

    Like this!

    See, if a lot of players use the LFR feature that means they clearly enjoy doing so, it has nothing to do with any of the other perks like free gear... and uhh, people always seem to use their flying mounts over their ground mounts, so clearly they like convenience there to and don't ever want to use ground mounts again, has nothing to do with speed or anything like that, the silent majority just hates ground mounts... and players also enjoy to blow through 5 mans without even thinking, we know this cause the success rates of 5 mans are through the roof... all that stuff means the silent majority likes it, right?
    You think you are being clever but you are just being ignorant. Unlike the perpetual whiners on these forums people by and large don't actually sit around doing things endlessly that they hate. They stop doing it and if they pay for a game they aren't enjoying they stop paying rather than sit on the forums and bitch endlessly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Yep and what about the ones who don't say shit and just leave? Are they a minority as well?
    What makes you think they left for the reasons you are unhappy with the game? The only thing comments like this prove is that it is entirely accurate to refer to the incessant whiners as a vocal minority.
    Last edited by xanzul; 2013-07-18 at 04:13 AM.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No. The primary purpose of the game is to make money. Providing entertainment is the means by which it attains that primary goal.

    If the game provided entertainment, but didn't make money, it would be a failure.
    if the game didn't make money it would be a failure of the business that produced the game, it wouldn't be that the game failed. the primary goal of a game is to provide entertainment and competition.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroedinger View Post
    There is only one type of real feedback, it is the wallet one. You can say, write, tweet or sing whatever you want, the only time any company changes things is when the money flow stops. So if you are not happy with the game, or want a dramatic change, unsubscribe, as each time you pay your fee, you say "Good job, Greg, please do continue."
    GC isn't the only one making decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    They don't seem to understand the difference between what we say we want, and what we actually need.
    Actually it is the players who can't seem to figure that out. I think Blizzard has a pretty clear picture on what they are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    Did you just write that GC ist not responsible for the direction of the game? If so, no point in argueing with you anymore. You've perfectly disqualified yourself.
    He isn't solely responsible for the direction of the game. Blizzard develops collaboratively without one single person having full control over everything. Nothing is being put into the game without at least some sort of consensus among other developers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    The problem is.. are the other 87.5% venting otherwise?

    Working in the food service or the service industry in general, teaches you that, JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET COMPLAINTS, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S GOOD OR PEOPLE ARE CONTENT. Most people, will take the loss, never come back, and move on.

    This is flawed argument.

    Seriously. Now, take the sub count loss. Sorry, losing millions players isn't content by any standard. Of course, you are going to use, mid expansion, old game, or whatever excuse you want.

    So you can take roughly, 1-2% of the player base that is vocal and damn sure bet, that a lot of their guildmates, friends, or relatives have heard about their opinions. Will take into account said opinions. Might even agree with said opinions, but will continue to play.

    I just don't get where this ideology comes from.
    All we know is a certain number of players left. That's it. Nothing more nothing less and only Blizzard has the full details on whys and hows and even that is limited to an extent. The only people who truly know why subscribers left are the subscribers themselves who left. Basing arguments on why things should be changed because of subscription loss just isn't valid for a multitude of reasons. If your argument can't stand on its own without being propped up with subscription loss then there isn't much value to it in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    Then if was so bad, then. Why did people put up with it? So Why was it OK in 2005 and not OK, now... please explain?
    The game changed. The market changed. The players changed. Want more reasons? There are plenty more where that came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    The amount of people who have been playing this game for all 8 years is probably really small. Saying that is the reason for losing 1.3 million is a bit sketchy.
    Are you seriously saying playing a game long term isn't a valid reason for why some may have left? games aren't fun forever and always. Eventually they get boring and it is time to move on. It isn't the indictment on the qualify of a game as much as you want it to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    This is probably the true issue then. I think it's about damn time blizzard simply introduced an in-game voting/survey system for game changes.
    It is unnecessary as it would simply give players the mistaken impression that Blizzard develops by democracy and they already can get the same data through other means. They care about feedback but ultimately it is their game, their vision and their call in what should be changed and how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    He is responsible for the articles he writes on the WOW website.

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    Again with the stereotyping and insulting of people who get into this game, I love how you people say it's us more hardcore players doing the insulting etc but it's really YOU.
    Ever think to consider hardcores have a bad reputation because of incessant whining and bitching about how "dirty casuals" have ruined the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    WoW isn't really losing players to other MMO's though. Other MMOs are about as low pop as ever minus the little burst they get when they go F2P. WoW is losing people to no games or other types of games it seems. That isn't a cry to bring those other types of games in to WoW, which they seem to be doing, its a cry to make their MMO worth playing over the other games again. There were plenty of good games that came out during WoW's life and each one would take a very minor group from WoW. I remember Aion hitting in Ulduar and thinking it would take tons for WoW cause it was a pretty good game. It took practically no one in the Q report. That is because people liked WoW more than Aion(and others).

    WoW needs to go back to catering to the MMORPG market and stop worrying about trying to pick up people from Halo or Pokemon. Those types of people will always return to their type of game when the new one appears.
    what part of Wow is even remotely like Halo? Also pet battles are in many other games and it isn't just Pokemon.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    True. The mainstream playerbase obviously loves being able to quickly queue for a dungeon or a battleground, but as endlessly is repeated by now already, it comes at the loss of community feeling. No more effort and reward for getting together with people, making friends who you can depend upon to do dungeons together... Arguably you can also say that LFD made the game more toxic, because grouping with 5 friends probably wouldn't include someone insulting you for clearing too slow, as opposed to grouping with 4 anonymous randoms.
    But again, the people who want to make friends and have consistent groups can still do so. Nobody is forcing them to play alone.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Why isn't it growing though? Why is it deemed that the MMO market is dead? The MMO market has gone down some, but that doesn't mean it can't go up if the game play is up to par. Yeah, people will go try the F2P games if they are interested in MMOs. That doesn't mean they are going to stay with the first one they try if they like it. They will probably ask around for the "best" MMORPG to try it out. If WoW was amazing and wonderful and everyone loved it, you bet your ass those people would come try out WoW. If you are a gamer and enjoy playing games, you know they cost money, the price is a deterrent but it isn't an obstacle that can't be overcome by great game play and immersion.
    Because the mmo market has always been a niche market and Wow is the first mmo to ever hit the market saturation point. Anyone who thought the game could keep growing infinitely was only deluding themselves and quite ignorant.

  14. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    I still enjoy the game but ... meh, panda's, LFD, LFR, etc. all screams children and laziness. Let's just give everyone everything for zero effort because hurrdurr I don't want a 2nd job argument holds soooo much ground. Then why do we have quests, or anything that requires effort for that matter?
    I often wonder: What are you people on about?

    There's a point at which hyperbole makes no sense.

  15. #595
    I've unsubbed and I don't think it's a bad game. It's just an old game and I'm ready to move on. I do think it got a bit too convenient though. There is a point where yes it feels initially nice to add convenience, but it also takes away charm and the pleasure you receive when your hard work is rewarded. It also helps immerse you sometimes. A dangerous world is more exciting to adventure through than one where you know you'll be safe around every bend.

    For ex: Running (sow) and only having druids/wizards in EQ portal you made the world feel large and wondrous. When they added POP books to teleport you instantly without communicating with other players it hurt the social aspect of the game and made the world shrink.
    Last edited by Shangshang; 2013-07-18 at 05:19 AM.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Exactly, MMOs were not a big thing when WoW came out, they were considered "nerd games" like Dungeons and Dragons........if they stopped fucking around and doing stupid shit and got innovative again they could come off life support, but right now they are just milking it until it bleeds it's last drop, like they don't even give a toss about the game anymore.
    That's just the thing though. Blizzard doesn't innovate. They improve on the innovations of others. If the market is ever going to start growing again it won't be until someone comes up with something innovative rather than continually copying Wow over and over and over only to end up failing spectacularly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guinzil View Post
    "Vocal minority" is a buzzword used by Blizzard to justify not having to listen and react to every complaint on the forum. Fact is only a small fraction of the WoW population is "vocal" about anything on the forums or on Twitter, be it positive or negative. So no matter what the argument is and whether it is in favor of or against Blizzard's ideas, they can always discard it as coming from a "vocal minority".

    A lot of people have been complaining about the game being too casual/easy/convenient. And yes, while they may seem like a minority when compared to the game's total population, they certainly aren't a minority when simply looking at the vocal part of said population (people who post on forums and Twitter).
    Blizzard doesn't have to justify a god damn thing to ANYONE. Again it is their game, their vision and their calls to make on how to develop the game. Players need to learn their place here and understand Blizzard developers are not their bitches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guinzil View Post
    "Vocal minority" is a buzzword used by Blizzard to justify not having to listen and react to every complaint on the forum. Fact is only a small fraction of the WoW population is "vocal" about anything on the forums or on Twitter, be it positive or negative. So no matter what the argument is and whether it is in favor of or against Blizzard's ideas, they can always discard it as coming from a "vocal minority".

    A lot of people have been complaining about the game being too casual/easy/convenient. And yes, while they may seem like a minority when compared to the game's total population, they certainly aren't a minority when simply looking at the vocal part of said population (people who post on forums and Twitter).
    Blizzard doesn't have to justify a god damn thing to ANYONE. Again it is their game, their vision and their calls to make on how to develop the game. Players need to learn their place here and understand Blizzard developers are not their bitches.

  17. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    I posted the quote a month ago, let me look for it. In one of the blogs GC mentions that going nto MoP that normal mode dungeons will be tuned tighter for guild groups in mind and LFR will be for those who find normal mode too challenging. Well this meant that the lower end guilds got bumped out of normals and the gap between LFR and normals increased. Blizzard thought these players would be happy with LFR, but their data is proving otherwise.

    My use of words are a bit strong but that is effectively what the developers did by increasing the gap between LFR and normals in MoP. The developers made attempts to drive away the PuG player base into LFR which resulted in the lower end guilds being hurt along with the PuG community of casuals who prove that one can be a casual and not commit to a schedule and see content.
    Normal modes were tuned too hard for groups that were primarily social. Basically, if your raid is going to carry underperformers (because they are friends/children/relatives/spouses/whatever and you think it's more important to play WITH them than to exclude them because they're not great at WoW), then you've been struggling mightily in T14 and T15.

    People complain that the game isn't "social" enough, but then when you get to the hardcore raiding mindset (which is the only mindset left nowadays), it's fuck you I don't care if you're my friend, if you're not going to run LFR for your runes than you can GTFO my raid.

    I think it's hugely more important to the long term health of the game that there be content that people can play in socially than it is that there is content people can play competitively. But maybe I'm wrong.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    And that is why they have single player RPGs, people who want to do things on their own and just queue are trying and SUCCEEDING in changing games people like ME love, I don't go onto other games and try and force my will onto them do I? THAT'S why I am so pissed off.
    Queues don't prevent people from socializing nor does it turn Wow into a single player game. Again they were meant to supplement player formed groups not replace them. Blizzard isn't responsible for the laziness of its players. Nothing is stopping you from making your own groups.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

    Either the community managers are doing an atrocious job, or the designers are pretending complaints don't exist

    I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?
    People on MMO Champion have been complaining, not so much on the official forums or via other feedback. And Blizzard does not really read MMO Champion, or if they do, doesn't give a shit about the complaints voiced here.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Think it is very ignorant this comment by Ghostcrawler. Sure he is right that people do not argue for less convenience.

    But compagnies like Blizzard should also try to see the future. Weird perhaps but true. They should expect a result from giving more convenience to the playerbase. Eeven if they cry out for a certain feature. What would the effect be?

    Blizzard either obviously failed at doing so MULTIPLE times - or - they did so knowing stuff would happen but thought it would have more positive then negative aspects.

    Either way, inconvenience is not always a bad thing.

    I won't go into "what should never have been implemented". These things have been done and cannot be undone basically without screwing with a lot of peoples expectations on how the game works = probable sub loss if they do remove certain things.
    So basically you ignored not only the context of the quote this thread is about but the entire thread itself. Good job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abysdruid View Post
    Its interesting, in TBC it was all the casuals posting on the forums that the game was too hard! Now we have the same people telling people who want the game to be harder to shut up, double standards? Now I for one am a heroic raider, I like how that is at the moment.

    There are some things i don't like in the game, but really they don't bother me that much! LFR is ok, I go in there for a giggle at how bad people can play and don't take it too seriously but i play, don't die and move as i should to avoid stuff, but the problem there is even the less-skilled players do not take it seriously! 5 mans are a little shit, TBC had the best 5 man dungeons about interms of difficulty range. I think we will only see 3-man scenarios rather than 5-man dungeons in the next expansion, which is OK, they are quite good for storytelling and they are much quicker for the Looking For system, as they can just stick 3 dps together and off they go. But is quicker better? Guess thats what Blizz really need to work out.
    Players are being told to shut up because those who want a challenge in game have it if they decide to seek it out.. It doesn't require the removal of easy content. I think that is a pretty valid reason to tell someone to shut the fuck up especially when it is the 100000000000th time the thread has come up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    That is an amazingly inaccurate statement. Majority of people play and if they don't like something, they quit. Obviously if they like it they'll keep playing but don't assume, like GC seems to, that because people remain quiet it means they like how things are. We sure as hell haven't seen 1.3 million posts in the past 3 months saying they are unhappy.
    Or maybe people unhappy with certain aspects of the game realize that despite their issues with the game they still enjoy it and don't blow it out of proportion like most on these forums do. People here seriously overstate the severity of many game issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Just out of curiosity.. how do we know?
    By playing the game? I'm not seeing anywhere near the amount of bitching and whining in game that happens on this forum.

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