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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    THen why would everybody run LFR? If you don't like it then don't use it.... If there are enough people ignoring it then the LFR would be removed.... as it is now apparently a vast majority likes it...
    Isn't it obvious? It's the easy way to do it. Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean they have to boycott it. Besides the majority who doesn't like it doesn't care enough to change things anyway. they just have a threshold and once it's reached they move on to play something else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    That's what special snowflakes tell themselves to feel better.

    All the term implies is that it's target is a spoiled little brat who thinks grind should trump ability and effort.
    Why do you think only those who want to be "special snowflakes" want exclusive content and gear?

    How about just having a meaningful reason to play the game? When I play single player games, I complete them, maybe do it again to try a different playstyle or another class and thats. MMOs are different, they need to keep players playing and just farming junk for no other reason than to farm junk doesnt quite cut it for some people..

  2. #102
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

    Either the community managers are doing an atrocious job, or the designers are pretending complaints don't exist

    I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?
    It's loud, but he's right. It's not the majority. Most are quite happy with the 'causal friendly' approach.

    I don't AGREE, but I at least concede that from a percentage standpoint he's 100% right.

    I know it's cool to decry Ghostcrawler as the source of all evils in and around WoW, but really the dude is just doing his job... but that job is a little based on generalizations from marketing types, and it's true for nearly every game company. It's driven by data, not true human reception all of the time. And the latter is really hard to guess. Hense... this is what we get, trial and error based on data points. Some of which can be skewed and tampered by the wrong factors, some of which are spot on.

    I would argue that casual players while content, are fickle, they leave quicker and quicker with each time the bar is lowered, but they don't really seem to pin point why. And that is not a measurable factor in game difficulty/accessibility creation. It's a strange unexplored factor of 'the unknown'. Something about past expansions and the mystery of the unknown parts of the game kept them playing for a long time with relatively little content compared to the massive sweeps of it we see now every patch.

    How do you measure and account for these seemingly endless amount of conditions and factors? The answer is... they try, but it's impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Same could be said for your generalization of those who use the term "special snowflake". There's been thousands of threads debating the term, on which I've elaborated on a few a times, hence I won't do so again. Plus, since when did people come up with a WoW version of Godwin's Law for "Special Snowflake"? Please.
    It's not prejudice to call someone out for being prejudiced. I'm calling you out, and you're being prejudiced. The world would be a better place if people weren't prejudiced. I don't know how that's confusing.

    In your description of special snowflake, you attributed the emotion of anger along with the idea that everything that person says is bullshit and hate. Those are assumptions which stem from prejudice.

    In my description of you, I said you were being prejudiced. You are. No assumptions were made and I attributed nothing to you that you didn't demonstrate for yourself.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-07-15 at 04:30 PM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  4. #104
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    The world would be a better place if people weren't prejudiced.
    I've thought about this before and i might have to disagree with you. If everything was perfect there would be no conflict. People thrive on conflict. Conflict makes things interesting. Challenging views make you think critically and that is a very important feature to have in life.
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  5. #105
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    It's not prejudice to call someone out for being prejudiced. I'm calling you out, and you're being prejudiced. The world would be a better place if people weren't prejudiced. I don't know how that's confusing.
    You're not calling me out, you're defending an attitude, not a race, ethnicity or religion.

    And circular arguments aren't fun. Special snowflakes blame "casuals" and whatnot all the time for all their ills (and wrongfully too) so, in the end, I'm the one calling you out?


  6. #106
    Look man, they made a ham-fisted attempt to make the game less casual in Cata and since they failed utterly they are extremely unlikely to try again.

    They will ignore the fact that they over tuned the content they should have left moderately easy (heroic dungeons) for the casual and lfd crowd to gear up in, creating an unnecessary barrier from the content which was actually done just right for the first two tiers (raids). They have taken from this instead the message that everyone wants everything to be easy, and sub loss is totally nothing they can avoid, because lolold.

    Since very few players outside the Blizzard echo chamber are still around to comment on things which would benefit the game, this is pretty much a permanent spiral now. As others have said, the long time players who might have made a majority for people wanting a game that offers some challenge have voted with their wallets, and are, after the complete conversion to facebook app status, unlikely to return.
    Last edited by oplawlz; 2013-07-15 at 04:32 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    I've thought about this before and i might have to disagree with you. If everything was perfect there would be no conflict. People thrive on conflict. Conflict makes things interesting. Challenging views make you think critically and that is a very important feature to have in life.
    Conflict makes things interesting ? We need people being Murdered, Raped, Beaten because of prejudice, else the world would be a boring place! No, I would disgaree 100%, we don't need conflict to have interesting lives. You'll probably start splitting hairs and say that me liking Vanilla and you liking Chocolate ice cream is a"form of conflict" We can be different and have different opinions, without the need for prejudice and conflict. People who thrive on conflict, have issues. Let's not make them the gold standard of humanity.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-07-15 at 04:36 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    You're not calling me out, you're defending an attitude, not a race, ethnicity or religion.

    And circular arguments aren't fun. Special snowflakes blame "casuals" and whatnot all the time for all their ills (and wrongfully too) so, in the end, I'm the one calling you out?
    Actually, I don't blame casuals for my ills. That's another prejudiced assumption you're making. I'm also not defending anger, hate, or people who spew bullshit. I'm defending normal people from being labeled and disregarded based on a prejudice. I can see you're not really out to have a rational discussion but rather to show your dislike for the OP. Carry on, I'll leave you to your fun.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  9. #109
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Conflict makes things interesting ? We need people being Murdered, Raped, Beaten because of prejudice, else the world would be a boring place! No, I would disgaree 100%, we don't need conflict to have interesting lives. You'll probably start splitting hairs and say that me like Vanilla and you like Chocolate ice cream is a"form of conflict" We can be different and have different opinions, without the need for conflict. People who thrive on conflict, have issues. Let's not make them the gold standard of humanity.
    if everything was perfect, and we all agreed on everything... wouldn't that be boring? if everyone had the same perspective, we'd be super dull!
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  10. #110
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Actually, I don't blame casuals for my ills. That's another prejudiced assumption you're making. I'm also not defending anger, hate, or people who spew bullshit. I'm defending normal people from being labeled and disregarded based on a prejudice. I can see you're not really out to have a rational discussion but rather to show your dislike for the OP. Carry on, I'll leave you to your fun.
    Everything about the OP's post fits within the most common of "Special Snowflake" definitions. And no, the OP didn't put up much of a rational argument, nor did most contributors to the thread. Me included.


  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    if everything was perfect, and we all agreed on everything... wouldn't that be boring? if everyone had the same perspective, we'd be super dull!
    Personally I find that one the most silliest argument ever!. We have no idea how it would be because we never had it. It's much cooler to act like constant conflict is awesome!

    Not to mention, I didn't say we had to all be exact clones of each other. You can still like different things then me and we can respect each other's differences without the need for conflict. We don't need prejudices against people to have different taste and beliefs.

  12. #112
    The Lightbringer Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler

    Either the community managers are doing an atrocious job, or the designers are pretending complaints don't exist

    I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?
    Elitists should not even be considered to have a say.

  13. #113
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    Casualisation is a wonderful thing and has greatly improved the game so far. It stands to reason that expanding on it will make it even better in the future. The game has constantly gotten better since Wrath and it's ironic and amusing that the people that whine about it are the very people who benefited from it. Most of them never raided before Wrath (or even played before it) and I remember when people raged and moaned about ICC's stacking buff and how it was going to flood the game with filthy casuals. It's that new generation of raiders that got into raiding then and soon after when it was made easy in Cata that hate LFR because they've never been 'better' than someone before in the game. They're still not, of course, but like to think they are and so want to take away things from people.

    LFR is the way forward. Kudos for Blizzard for not listening to whiny 'hardcore' raiders that are themselves not really even hardcore raiders at all. Even if they are, it doesn't matter what they think. GC is exactly right in this. That's not fanboyism, that's support of him giving me what I want consistently for a long period of time with casualisation. I hope he stays true to it and keeps building on it in the future. You 'hardcore' raiders have your content, everyone else has theirs. If anything, it's your content that should be scaled back and limited or just opened up to the rest of us. That's something more people would want but Blizzard won't do it just yet. Oh well, in time :P
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuel View Post
    So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...
    Because they didn't listen to the forums... they listened to their subscriptions falling perpetually for over a year. THAT is when they actually started listening to ANY feedback and made knee-jerk changes.

    It's the same reason Xbox One did a 180 on their horrific DRM policies several months later. It wasn't the feedback that did it... it was the MASSIVE lop-sided presales and the underselling of Xbone that caused them to immediately make the changes.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    I don't think it's a small vocal minority, actually.

    WoW has been bleeding subs for quite a while. While there are certainly more factors involved than the thread's topic, I truly believe it to be quite a huge factor. I believe that Blizzard has removed quite a bit of the "adventure" through some of the changes they have made for the sake of player convenience. I think the vast majority of people who were originally attracted to World of Warcraft were RPG fans. RPG fans are known for craving that sense of adventure. RPG fans don't play RPGs solely for the gameplay, typically. Who actually enjoys turn-based systems, or clunky action/real time combat? RPGs succeed and fail based on their capability to immerse the player in a living world.

    Azeroth is a huge world, one that was easy to truly get lost in. Unfortunately, the scope of the world feels much smaller than it actually is due to many changes Blizzard has made over the years. Embarking in an adventure through an instanced dungeon used to involve a gathering of friends/strangers followed by a short journey to the entrance of the dungeon. Now you press a button and boom, you're there. Sure it's convenient, but is it fun? Is it conducive to immersing you in the World of Warcraft?

    Class identity and resonance with one's character has changed quite a bit over the years. For the sake of balance, Blizzard has removed or significantly altered many abilities that used to give classes flavor. The trivialization of the leveling process has been a boon for altaholics, but for those like me who desire to focus on one single online persona, it has made the journey feel more artificial than it used to be. Taking a character to max level used to be a time-consuming and involved feat, involving many zones and dungeons. Today the leveling pace is so incredibly fast that even when Mists of Pandaria / Cataclysm launched, it was near impossible to not hit max level without skipping significant amounts of the new leveling content. While options are appreciated, I feel like the journey to max level has been watered down to the point in which the only focus of WoW is the post level cap content.

    WoW is still a great game. Mists of Pandaria is a great expansion. Unfortunately, due to a number of factors, WoW is no longer the cultural phenomenon it used to be. It is no longer the game that everyone is playing. While this fall was inevitable, I think WoW could have soared a bit further and for a bit longer had Blizzard decided to focus on making changes and developing content that sought to further immerse players into the world.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    They were trying out something new. They don't make every decision based on data alone. Sometimes they make gambles that people will like a change that they just don't have data for.
    They weren't trying something new, they listened to that vocal minority that demands harder content but always finds excuses not to pursue it.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    A small vocal minority is all they have to work off of. The only player feedback they get it from the forums. The only other thing they have a chance at gathering feedback from is the account canceling question thing which are optional. I know I picked the dumbest option possible when I closed my other two accounts. So taking random questionnaire things is iffy at best.

    The more dedicated players are the ones who find their way to forums to post, why is it such a bad thing to follow their advise? There are about as many people who like the game that post as hate it. It shows that there are issues with parts of the game for some but not others. Just because there aren't 8 million posts saying something, doesn't mean that it isn't the way it is or that everything is perfectly fine.

    The vast majority of WoW has never made it's way to a forum let alone posted on one. So everyone posting in any thread is a vocal minority, it just helps your point to think otherwise.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Have u got evidence that its the minority and not the majority?

    In my very long Wow forum use the subject with the most complaint threads ever in the history of Wow has been LFR. No other issue in Wow has ever generated such a massive amount of forum pages.

    Now, at the very least that shows LFR isnt functioning as well as it could be ingame and it needs some fixing/rebalancing. At the very worst its a total disaster.

    What that doesnt tell us is that everthings fine and dandy.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    This has to be the most infuriating tweet I have ever seen from Ghostcrawler
    But why, more like GC rarely has a bright moment, but when he does people find it instantly infuriating. How convenient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    I mean, players have been complaining about WoW being more and more casual-friendly since WoTLK, complaining about its accessibility and convenience. This story really begins with the implementation of LFD towards the end of WOTLK, then flying mounts in cataclysm, and finally LFR. Dozens of LFR threads are made weekly, how come players rarely argue for less convenience?
    Aside from forum users being just the vocal minority, most of what players "demand" in threads like that is pure lunacy that would put an end to WoW sooner than anything Blizzard themselves could come up with. The thing is, the majority of community suggestions lack substance and thought, can't really blame GC for stating a fact.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    The world would be a better place if people weren't prejudiced.
    Yea, I hate those prejudiced people. They should be kept away from the rest of us. And don't even get me started on the xenophobes, those people worry me.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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