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  1. #161
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    Just because the majority isn't saying anything doesn't mean they're all happy either. Judging by the subscription numbers, I'd say they're clearly not happy.

    In terms of business, declining numbers mean a few things;
    1) Your product no longer holds the attention of the consumer.
    2) Your product isn't changing to meet the demands of the consumer.
    3) Your product has changed too much to meet the demands of the consumer.
    4) Your team is failing to listen to the consumer about what they want.

    All in all, there are reasons that the game is falling from it's once glorious number of 12 million down to it's, as of march, 8.3 million. That's a 33% loss there. While you can't contribute it all to the overly convenient game play, it is a factor and Blizzard needs to start accepting that fact. If it weren't a factor, you wouldn't see people complaining about it.
    ..and you conviniently ignored: "Maybe there is no endless supply of consumers and the game is getting on in years"? WoW doesn't exist in a vacuum and newer games that had all the chances to the people who complained loudly on the forums have failed to even remotely meet WoW numbers.

    While I don't debate your little list, it certainly goes on beyond 4 points. Now tell me: The forum (look at this thread) doesn't even speak with one voice. There are multiple opinions. For every complainer to an issue there is somebody sle who thinks that issue doesn't exist.

    Who would you listen to. Are you the guy who automatically (as a designer) jumps at the people who complains and fixes there issues?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Deepstrider View Post
    For every person that starts a thread complaining about LFR, there are hundreds of replies disagreeing with that sentiment.

    People who think LFR is a problem are the ones with their fingers in their ears.
    Does the amount of people in support of an idea make it any more or less right or valuable? LFR could be a problem even if the entire population of WoW disagreed with that idea. It's about fact, not how many people you can get in support of your ideas.

    I'm not stating that LFR is a problem as a fact. I'm simply stating you can't use the number of supporters as support for an argument.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  3. #163
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.
    That is what we had in classic. To the point where you went "LFM for UBRS oh yeah...and somebody with a key". Then two ppl fy and the rest gets their ass summoned.

    Do you think LFD was introduced to deliberately mess with people?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by ACES View Post
    I don't understand why anyone would argue against convenience.
    We argue against it because it takes away what being an MMORPG is. If I wanted an instant gratification game, I would go play one like that. I play an MMORPG to be immersed in the world and progress my character over time. Blizzard is trying too hard to bring all possible gamers to WoW rather than sticking to what made them popular and doing it really well. Farmville and Pokemon additions, while nice to some, aren't what an MMORPG is about. They have a place in the gaming world, just not together.

  5. #165
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Does the amount of people in support of an idea make it any more or less right or valuable? LFR could be a problem even if the entire population of WoW disagreed with that idea. It's about fact, not how many people you can get in support of your ideas.

    I'm not stating that LFR is a problem as a fact. I'm simply stating you can't use the number of supporters as support for an argument.
    I think you can

    In your scenario, LFR is even a problem for the 5 million that don't even use it? Hell..lets assume pvp is a problem. Only because 50% of the players do pvp...doesn't mean it is the problem.

    Or..how about pet battles are the problem? Transmog? Gamon?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    We argue against it because it takes away what being an MMORPG is. If I wanted an instant gratification game, I would go play one like that. I play an MMORPG to be immersed in the world and progress my character over time.
    ..so if WoW is no longer that game..by that logic..should you still play WoW? is there no game that fullfills your needs as of today? If not..then why? Apparently it is so easy to make a fantastic game, just make it like Classic WoW...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #166
    Personally, I wish they would just give the elitists what they want in WoW. WoW is approaching 9 years old. All you elitist should stay in WoW re-living your glory days. The rest of us will move on to newer games and we don't need all your negativity and toxic behavior to follow us.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.
    We're talking about a game here! WoW isn't a construction project or ground-breaking research. Games are supposed to be pleasant. I don't understand people who expect games to be work. I honestly suspect that those people don't have enough work to do in real-life so they look to games to provide a sense of accomplishment. That's not what games are made for. Games are supposed to be a diversion from the onerous reality of day-to-day living. If you want to participate in an activity that demands honest effort and offers tangible rewards get a job or raise a family. Don't log into an online game and complain that it's not making you "work" hard enough.

  8. #168
    I think Ghostcrawler meant there is rarely constructive arguments for less convenience. He's right. You all need to come up with some better arguments. I've made mine, but I'm only one voice.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ..and you conviniently ignored: "Maybe there is no endless supply of consumers and the game is getting on in years"? WoW doesn't exist in a vacuum and newer games that had all the chances to the people who complained loudly on the forums have failed to even remotely meet WoW numbers.

    While I don't debate your little list, it certainly goes on beyond 4 points. Now tell me: The forum (look at this thread) doesn't even speak with one voice. There are multiple opinions. For every complainer to an issue there is somebody sle who thinks that issue doesn't exist.

    Who would you listen to. Are you the guy who automatically (as a designer) jumps at the people who complains and fixes there issues?
    I've been waiting for this response as it happens in every thread. There is an endless supply of gamers. There are more gamers coming of age each year and there will be more next year. Gaming has become main stream and thus TONS of players flock to games daily. That can be older people finally accepting gaming or it can be kids growing up or anything in between. Nvidia did a random post about numbers of computer gamers over the years and we are at the all time high right now. To say that there aren't players now but there were 5 years ago is just plain dumb.

    As a designer, if I were losing tons of players daily, I would look at the complaints and see why some people are leaving. People who say things are good and such aren't the ones leaving, thus their opinions, for the time, aren't overly important if you are trying to stop the bleeding. Personally, I'd toss up a ton of polls and such to try to find the reasons for people to stop playing. Toss them in the ingame mail system and give a pet or mount for completing the survey or some free game time, or something everyone actually wants to make sure it gets done by most people.

    It just doesn't seem like they are trying anything. I guess that is what upsets me most. They aren't even acting like they have a problem. They are making it seem like they are prefect and have no faults ever. I would LOVE a post from GC or someone important just saying "We know there are some issues right now and are really working to try to make the game a better place for everyone. If you guys would just bare with us over the next little bit you'll see what we've been trying to get done". Anything like that would be much appreciated by almost everyone in the game. It doesn't say what is the problem or what they are working on or anything, it just says they are in fact aware of things going on, which it doesn't seem like they are at all.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Phasma View Post
    I think Ghostcrawler meant there is rarely constructive arguments for less convenience. He's right. You all need to come up with some better arguments. I've made mine, but I'm only one voice.
    During pre-WoLTK lots of people provided feedback Pallys being too good, some even did the math and what not to show it was. Then Blizzard countered it would balance out at 80 despite the numerous constructive threads (and non constructive) telling them no

    Guess where that went...

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ..so if WoW is no longer that game..by that logic..should you still play WoW? is there no game that fullfills your needs as of today? If not..then why? Apparently it is so easy to make a fantastic game, just make it like Classic WoW...
    WoW is rapidly not becoming that game, that is correct. Before I do go, I figured I'd try to help fix things before hand. If they don't go that way, then I will move on.
    I'm sure I can find a new game that will full fill my needs but I would prefer to say with the one I've devoted tons of time, money and effort to. When I quit everquest it was easier on my because my guild just left for WoW, so I was able to keep my friendships in tact and such, but that wouldn't be the case here so it is harder to do. That being said, Wildstar has good things I hear and Everquest:Next info will be coming soon, so hopefully that will be welcome news seeing how things are currently going here.

    When did I ever say it was easy to make a fantastic game? I never even implied it or hinted in that way at all. Making a great game is hard or everyone would do it. What I was saying is that just because you have two fantastic games on their own, doesn't make them a fantastic game together.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    Going by that statement one would wonder why haven't they put in instant teleporters to almost anywhere for the 'sake of convenience'
    /raid 'summon plz'
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    I'm simply stating you can't use the number of supporters as support for an argument.
    Not on it's own, but it's perfectly valid in countering the people claiming that the number of LFR threads is proof that it's a problem.

    Besides which, when it comes to whether something is good or bad gaming there is no "fact" - only opinion.
    There is only one thing that we say to the god of death.
    "Take Sean Bean instead."

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    Personally, I wish they would just give the elitists what they want in WoW. WoW is approaching 9 years old. All you elitist should stay in WoW re-living your glory days. The rest of us will move on to newer games and we don't need all your negativity and toxic behavior to follow us.
    "You" do that anyway. You always have and always will. The more causal players will always move on to something different at some point because they aren't invested in said game.

  15. #175
    Honestly i think they now will make the right balance if they want to and dont miss this opportunity

    1. LFR: For the people that have less time to play the game. (work, family, etc)
    2. Flex: Great for Casuals that are on bad guilds/normal guilds (or no guild at all) and the ones that usually only kill after 2/3 months the last boss in normal mode and have friends to play this (can even be some of the ones that only do LFR on weekend)
    3. Normal: Medium Guilds, now with flex they can up a little the difficulty on normals, not much, just a little.
    4. Heroic: now its the time to really appeal to hardcode/semi hardcore guilds/players, they can really up the difficulty because of Flex

    they can please all the raiders community unless in last minute they have a brain freeze

  16. #176
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike` View Post
    Honestly i think they now will make the right balance if they want to and dont miss this opportunity

    1. LFR: For the people that have less time to play the game. (work, family, etc)
    2. Flex: Great for Casuals that are on bad guilds/normal guilds (or no guild at all) and the ones that usually only kill after 2/3 months the last boss in normal mode and have friends to play this (can even be some of the ones that only do LFR on weekend)
    3. Normal: Medium Guilds, now with flex they can up a little the difficulty on normals, not much, just a little.
    4. Heroic: now its the time to really appeal to hardcode/semi hardcore guilds/players, they can really up the difficulty because of Flex

    they can please all the raiders community unless in last minute they have a brain freeze
    This will never happen because no matter what, players even above LFR will complain those in LFR can get epics with less time invested.

    Sometimes updated...

  17. #177
    The way I see it, they've been going down this path for years and it's really not done them any good. You can say the game is old but games like EvE Online have maintained a very good sub base (for a non-WoW MMO) for a very long period of time. I honestly believe it's the route they've been going down for years that has just started to slowly dwindle the WoW sub base, there is kind of a correlation if you think about it.

    Now I'm not saying WoW is bad, it's just not as good it seems and I'd like to see Blizzard "experiment" by trying to make things a little less convenient and actually implement things where the community wouldn't just be your guild. For an MMO, it's important that there is a community social aspect that is server wide and you know who's a jerk and who is not. Whether any of you believe it or not, Blizzard has a direct impact with implementing ideas into a game regarding players socializing, you can use the bad argument that you "make an effort and actually just talk to anyone" but this is a video game where most of us play for fun. Feeling forced to socialize in an MMO is weird. Back before they implemented LFD etc. I just met people naturally and talked to them, I didn't feel like I was forced.

    You just look like that weird kid at a high school lunch where you sit down with the "rich popular kids" trying to socialize. Back then it was something that just naturally flowed because the game worked like that, in essence it was your second life.

    As a player, you had to make a name for yourself back then.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    We're talking about a game here! WoW isn't a construction project or ground-breaking research. Games are supposed to be pleasant. I don't understand people who expect games to be work. I honestly suspect that those people don't have enough work to do in real-life so they look to games to provide a sense of accomplishment. That's not what games are made for. Games are supposed to be a diversion from the onerous reality of day-to-day living. If you want to participate in an activity that demands honest effort and offers tangible rewards get a job or raise a family. Don't log into an online game and complain that it's not making you "work" hard enough.
    If there was a smiley for throwing my hands up in the air in defeat, I would post it.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    We're talking about a game here! WoW isn't a construction project or ground-breaking research. Games are supposed to be pleasant. I don't understand people who expect games to be work. I honestly suspect that those people don't have enough work to do in real-life so they look to games to provide a sense of accomplishment. That's not what games are made for. Games are supposed to be a diversion from the onerous reality of day-to-day living. If you want to participate in an activity that demands honest effort and offers tangible rewards get a job or raise a family. Don't log into an online game and complain that it's not making you "work" hard enough.
    Games are made for entertainment, and not everyone derives entertainment from the same aspects of a video game.

    Plenty of games on the market cater to what you're referring to, why not just go pick one of those?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  20. #180
    High Overlord
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    I'm still not really sure why WoW has this perception that it's too casual friendly. Compared to early TBC when we had to farm 100 elixirs a night + flasks + food maybe, but the highest level content is harder then everything in TBC sans-Sunwell.

    MoP has content for both hardcore (TBC-style) and casual (WLK-style). Why is this a bad thing? Why is more content ever a bad thing?

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