Proving Grounds actually has great potential...

[lordsphinx]

To be honest I don't think most people will take the time to do it with the goal of improving themselves and if it was mandatory before entering LFR then people would just hate on it.

I'm way way way more excited about challenging friends and guildies scores in endless mode.

People wanting to take the time to do it is irrelevant. I may WANT to join ToT LFR on my fresh 90, but the game forces me to get more gear. So I go and afk my way through H Dungeons, MV / HoF / ToeS LFR, and can finally que for ToT LFR and I don't even have a keybind. "SWEET! you mean I can /dance the whole time and you'll gimme pretty purple pixel lootz!!!"

No. Just... No. You should be able to show that you know your class. The time it will take to clear bronze and silver Proving Grounds will be a drop in the bucket when compared to reaching the ALREADY REQUIRED ilvl. Maybe award a piece of loot to make up for the lost time you coulda spent gearing? (trust me, not normal mode loot, just a little token of appreciation)

[Deleted]

I for one hope that Proving Grounds is difficult.

Bronze mode - Average to Above average players will find this challenging but not impossible. Passing through Bronze mode will give you the stamp of approval for normal mode raiding guilds

Silver mode - Almost impossible to complete without playing your class perfectly. Average players will hit a brick wall here and above average players will really struggle here. Still not impossible but requires perfect play. PvP heroes and casual 5 man heroic players will not succeed until they get better at the game. Even the most hardcore of players will need a good few hours of wiping before finishing. Wiping here is nothing to be embarrassed about

Gold - Impossible. No one will succeed here for a few weeks. Requires insane play that only the best are capable of. Takes days of wiping to even pass the first wave. Once you know the encounter inside out and have a solid strategy down can you start to progress through the waves of mobs. Will include a metric shit ton of one shot mechanics. If you stand in the wrong place at any time during this encounter you will be killed instantly. Getting Gold is an impressive achievement and will earn you celebrity status on your realm.

Endless mode - Endless mode is insanely difficult. Only the best of the best of the best can do well here. Where getting Gold mode shows that you are one of the best, Endless mode shows you ARE the best. Each time you enter, the encounter changes randomly so you can't learn a strategy and get some addon that tells you what to do. This relies on pure instinct and draws upon your full experience as a WoW player. One wrong move and your dead. Even the most advanced players in WoW will fail here as they are used to watching a boss mod timer to know when to do stuff. For this you not only need to play your class like a God you also need lightning fast reactions to adjust to the ever changing encounter.

And inb4 'omg your such an elitist'

No, This is to help people learn the game. Each difficulty should offer something for everyone. This way total scrubs to amazing players can go into Proving Grounds and come out with a shit ton of new knowledge and skills that they can use to become better players.

Bronze and Silver could be Blizzards way of teaching you everything you need to know to succeed in this game. Gold could be Blizzard saying 'Ok, you know everything there is to know, now go prove yourself'

[Nobleshield]

I would rather see it like this:

Bronze: 5-man/LFR equivalent; can you perform functions for your role at a beginner level (e.g. can you hold aggro/heal the tank/focus target, can you avoid standing in fire, can you perform a basic DPS rotation)
Silver: Normal raiding; can you perform your role functions at an intermediate level similar to that required by normal raids (e.g. can you handle a taunt swap mechanic or a stacking debuff, can you heal through a stacking DoT, can you interrupt the raid wiping ability, can you do enough DPS to meet enrage)
Gold: Heroic raiding; can you perform your role at an advanced level similar to that required in heroic mode raids (e.g. can you rotate cooldowns to avoid dying, can you heal the group through heavy raid AOE, can you grab the Heroic-only buff that you need to beat berserk)
Endless: Basically the "Challenge Mode", how long can you survive before you're overwhelmed?

Endless shouldn't be the Paragon/Method level raider, it should still be hard but be like most "Survival" modes in games, it doesn't test your skills so much as your attrition rate.

[Tziva]

I for one hope that Proving Grounds is difficult.

Bronze is difficulty level around 5man heroics.
Silver is normal mode raiding.
Gold is heroic raiding.

Endless is increasing difficulty per wave (I think 10% per wave if I remember right), which will be where the real challenge happens.

I was able to try it on the PTR, but unfortunately I only tried healer and gold was tuned to be impossible to beat at the time, so I didn't get to finish it. I think I could have beat gold had it been tuned "correctly" but doubt I would have gotten very far in endless.

[Koji2k11]

so if i read it correctly ilvl scale down which means rogues are fucked since we scale so horribly bad at the start of the expansion and since 463 ilvl is start expansion gear we are screwed :/

[Phookah]

I for one hope that Proving Grounds is difficult.

Bronze mode - Average to Above average players will find this challenging but not impossible. Passing through Bronze mode will give you the stamp of approval for normal mode raiding guilds

Silver mode - Almost impossible to complete without playing your class perfectly. Average players will hit a brick wall here and above average players will really struggle here. Still not impossible but requires perfect play. PvP heroes and casual 5 man heroic players will not succeed until they get better at the game. Even the most hardcore of players will need a good few hours of wiping before finishing. Wiping here is nothing to be embarrassed about

Gold - Impossible. No one will succeed here for a few weeks. Requires insane play that only the best are capable of. Takes days of wiping to even pass the first wave. Once you know the encounter inside out and have a solid strategy down can you start to progress through the waves of mobs. Will include a metric shit ton of one shot mechanics. If you stand in the wrong place at any time during this encounter you will be killed instantly. Getting Gold is an impressive achievement and will earn you celebrity status on your realm.

Endless mode - Endless mode is insanely difficult. Only the best of the best of the best can do well here. Where getting Gold mode shows that you are one of the best, Endless mode shows you ARE the best. Each time you enter, the encounter changes randomly so you can't learn a strategy and get some addon that tells you what to do. This relies on pure instinct and draws upon your full experience as a WoW player. One wrong move and your dead. Even the most advanced players in WoW will fail here as they are used to watching a boss mod timer to know when to do stuff. For this you not only need to play your class like a God you also need lightning fast reactions to adjust to the ever changing encounter.

And inb4 'omg your such an elitist'

No, This is to help people learn the game. Each difficulty should offer something for everyone. This way total scrubs to amazing players can go into Proving Grounds and come out with a shit ton of new knowledge and skills that they can use to become better players.

Bronze and Silver could be Blizzards way of teaching you everything you need to know to succeed in this game. Gold could be Blizzard saying 'Ok, you know everything there is to know, now go prove yourself'

I think you have WAYYYYY to high of hopes for proving grounds. They'll be more like:
Bronze: Here's 6 mobs. Kill them. CONGRATULATIONS
Silver: Here's 9 mobs, and a elite. CONGRATULATIONS
Gold: 3 Elites and a "boss". CONGRATULATIONS

Endless will be where most people spend their time I reckon.

[lordsphinx]

so if i read it correctly ilvl scale down which means rogues are fucked since we scale so horribly bad at the start of the expansion and since 463 ilvl is start expansion gear we are screwed :/

That's strange you say that, because a lot of VERY competitive challenge mode times contain rogues (in some places it's almost mandatory), and those scale gear as well.

[Phookah]

That's strange you say that, because a lot of VERY competitive challenge mode times contain rogues (in some places it's almost mandatory), and those scale gear as well.

The rogues aren't there for damage. Its for AoE stealth/stuns/slows.

[Tziva]

I think you have WAYYYYY to high of hopes for proving grounds. They'll be more like:
Bronze: Here's 6 mobs. Kill them. CONGRATULATIONS
Silver: Here's 9 mobs, and a elite. CONGRATULATIONS
Gold: 3 Elites and a "boss". CONGRATULATIONS

Endless will be where most people spend their time I reckon.

There are no bosses. There are waves of elite packs with varying abilities. Waves increase in size and difficulty.

I didn't count the waves* but I'd guess bronze is like 6 or 7, silver was 10, and gold was 15?

I explained tuning in post above.


* edit to clarify: there will be a counter on the ui for this (like with CoT: Stratholme) but when I got to do them it was NYI so I would have had to count - and I didn't bother doing that until I was working on gold since the others I breezed through.

[Daws001]

Am I the only one who actually likes it, not because it helps other players out (which isn't a negative), but mainly because its more content to do?

But then again, I am an Achievement whore, so that is probably why I'm so excited for it.

If this was just another dps-centric thing I wouldn't pay any attention to it...but healers can join in on the fun! Huzzah! Yeah, I'm excited for it as something else to do (healing wise).

To the OP. Umm...I'm not a fan of the idea. I don't mind people jumping in head first into dungeons/raiding and learning the hard way. It's how I did way back in BC (I was a hot mess!), but now I'm fabulous. I can even watch t.v. while healing

Mad skillz yo.

[lordsphinx]

The rogues aren't there for damage. Its for AoE stealth/stuns/slows.

I'm just saying that stuns and slows are just as important as damage, and even if it's not high numbers, you are still "proving" that you know your class. Maybe what an elemental shaman just lusts through and laughs, a rogue will stunlock and get through it just the same. Every class has their strong suits.

[Sinndra]

There are no bosses. There are waves of elite packs with varying abilities. Waves increase in size and difficulty.

I didn't count the waves but I'd guess bronze is like 6 or 7, silver was 10, and gold was 15?

I explained tuning in post above.

still nothing like the over expectations of DarthThrall. some people. anyways.. while im not against proving grounds, i am worried about its effect on pugs. "gotta link PG acheesement for consideration"

[Tziva]

I'm just saying that stuns and slows are just as important as damage, and even if it's not high numbers, you are still "proving" that you know your class. Maybe what an elemental shaman just lusts through and laughs, a rogue will stunlock and get through it just the same. Every class has their strong suits.

Your role in a DPS Proving Ground is to kill one pack before the next pack appears, otherwise you fail. Stuns and slows will be very valuable for survival, but you'll have to have high damage output to actually succeed and progress.

That said, I am pretty sure a good rogue should be able to advance through. Not everyone scales evenly -- it's not just rogues -- and I'm sure they will tune it with that in mind.

[lordsphinx]

If this was just another dps-centric thing I wouldn't pay any attention to it...but healers can join in on the fun! Huzzah! Yeah, I'm excited for it as something else to do (healing wise).

To the OP. Umm...I'm not a fan of the idea. I don't mind people jumping in head first into dungeons/raiding and learning the hard way. It's how I did way back in BC (I was a hot mess!), but now I'm fabulous. I can even watch t.v. while healing

Mad skillz yo.

I agree that it's totally possible to learn through the school of hard knocks, but it's not always the easiest. A lot of times the new people are verbally thrashed the first time they lose threat on a mob in a 5 man, or let the tank die. I know it happened to me when I first started, and I didn't like it one bit. If there was something that would have stood in my way and made me learn before wasting 4 other people's time, I woulda done it and been better for it.

[Maxilian]

I wholeheartedly support this idea. But, I foresee many people claiming that it will be a huge barrier to entry for new players (or even existing ones on alts) that don't want to invest the time it takes to get X/Y/Z medal before going to gear up.

Maybe requiring the achiv on ANY toon would be a good middle ground? Must have Silver Healer on your ACCOUNT (not toon) to queue as heals, etc.

I totally agree with you... IMO these is the best solution

[Twilight Cultist]

Bronze is difficulty level around 5man heroics.
Silver is normal mode raiding.
Gold is heroic raiding.

Endless is increasing difficulty per wave (I think 10% per wave if I remember right), which will be where the real challenge happens.

I was able to try it on the PTR, but unfortunately I only tried healer and gold was tuned to be impossible to beat at the time, so I didn't get to finish it. I think I could have beat gold had it been tuned "correctly" but doubt I would have gotten very far in endless.

By Heroic Raiding difficult, do you mean Heroic Shannox difficult, or Heroic Ragnaros difficult?

[NoiseTank13]

Blood Death Knights will just breeze through it no matter how they tune it.

[lordsphinx]

Blood Death Knights will just breeze through it no matter how they tune it.

They may be able to breeze through the tank one, but they can't join the DPS one in Blood spec.

[Tziva]

By Heroic Raiding difficult, do you mean Heroic Shannox difficult, or Heroic Ragnaros difficult?

We're not in firelands anymore homeslice

I mean like "has the skill to work on current heroic raid content." Finishing silver and getting to gold means your skill is ready to start heroic raiding by current content standards, but each wave increases in difficulty. I would think of wave one as probably around Jin'rokh level hard and probably the final wave is closer to say Lei Shen HM.

That said, all levels of Proving Grounds (from Bronze to Endless) are just packs of elites. While the elites have a large variety of abilities (melee, ranged, heals, stuns, aoe ground effects, things you need to run away from, etc), they're still not going to be anywhere close mechanically to the complexity of a boss fight. Each type is just about checking your skills in your particular area. In gold for healers, for example, everyone is near dead and covered with debuffs, and sometimes out of range, and you're close to OOM... but it's still not quite the same as doing a boss fight.

You don't need to prepare a strategy in advance (except you might work out a priority focus plan), and there's not going to be anything weird that you need to figure out. Just straight up taking lots of damage as heals, dealing lots of damage as dps, and wrangling lots of adds/protecting your party as tank.

[Djuntas]

Just go back to TBC-model. Make the community smart, by forcing it to actually improve and socilaise.