What Heroics are better DPS checks than mechanic checks?

[Tarazet]

We are a 10 man guild with players that are solid on the numbers, but aren't always the best at handling crazy raid mechanics. It took us much longer than I hoped to finish Heroic Jin'rokh because people still don't know how to dodge things, and our Monk ended up solo healing for about 2 minutes of our kill. But we're all posting great numbers and I'm sure that gear-wise, we have enough potential to get a lot more kills than we actually have.

Out of the heroic encounters, which ones would you count as a pure gear check (provided you know enough about the fights to do them on normal)?

[Spiralphoenix]

Ji-kun for sure, it's basically the same fight. Generally the recommended ones after than would be out of Tortos, Horridon, and Iron Qon. Qon probably has the most changes out of those 3, at least just in that a lot of mechanics intertwine, but he's not too bad. Tortos is just keeping a shield up by hitting a crystal every once in a while, and Horridon is just random people kiting/knocking back pink dinos the whole fight.

[Simplexity]

I took a look at your guild's logs and your guild's numbers, while decent, will probably not be enough to carry you through heroic fights with minimal mechanics. Of the fights that are very similar to normal mode but just higher numbers required, I'd say Horridon, Council, Tortos (if you kill bats), Primordius, Iron Qon and Twins are the fights that are more throughput dependent than having excellent execution. Here's a breakdown of how I see each fight.

Horridon - Mostly a numbers fight, almost exactly normal mechanics. Simple mechanic fails though (i.e. standing in shit) gets you killed.
Council - 100% numbers fight, mechanically very easy especially if you cheese Frostbite (see Council thread)
Tortos - Execution fight. If you have good numbers though, killing bats is easy.
Megaera - You need good numbers healing wise, but execution and positioning is one of the hardest this tier.
Ji-kun - Execution fight, but with good numbers you can burn boss before it gets too tricky.
Durumu - Execution and numbers fight.
Primo - Pure numbers fight.
Animus - Execution fight. If your numbers are exceptional you can try the zerg.
Iron Qon - Numbers help here, but when I've pugged this with guilds not so good on mechanics, Windstorm is challenging.
Twins - Almost purely numbers.

Lei Shen is both and Ra-den is almost purely numbers.

[Tarazet]

I took a look at your guild's logs and your guild's numbers, while decent, will probably not be enough to carry you through heroic fights with minimal mechanics. Of the fights that are very similar to normal mode but just higher numbers required, I'd say Horridon, Council, Tortos (if you kill bats), Primordius, Iron Qon and Twins are the fights that are more throughput dependent than having excellent execution. Here's a breakdown of how I see each fight.

Horridon - Mostly a numbers fight, almost exactly normal mechanics. Simple mechanic fails though (i.e. standing in shit) gets you killed.
Council - 100% numbers fight, mechanically very easy especially if you cheese Frostbite (see Council thread)
Tortos - Execution fight. If you have good numbers though, killing bats is easy.
Megaera - You need good numbers healing wise, but execution and positioning is one of the hardest this tier.
Ji-kun - Execution fight, but with good numbers you can burn boss before it gets too tricky.
Durumu - Execution and numbers fight.
Primo - Pure numbers fight.
Animus - Execution fight. If your numbers are exceptional you can try the zerg.
Iron Qon - Numbers help here, but when I've pugged this with guilds not so good on mechanics, Windstorm is challenging.
Twins - Almost purely numbers.

Lei Shen is both and Ra-den is almost purely numbers.

We've had a lot of people running undergeared alts in recent logs to catch them up, reserving their mains for progression fights and encounters they need gear on. If Council is a good numbers race then I think we should give it a shot - and give our Enhancement shaman a try at the weapon he's been missing this entire tier.

[Blood Fox]

I really strongly disagree with lei shen and ra-den being numbers, In fact i think both of those are the direct opposites.
lei shen is heavley about dealing with transitions and lighting orbs in the correct fashion. and on ra-den th eonly thing that can really kill you is fucking up the rottion because if you got to ra-den you have the numbers to kill him while raiding with one hand.

council really only changes for a few people, The line at which you can and cannot kill them is if youc an burn sl down before he empowers. if you do that its an easy win once you figure out your cd's for discharge.

I'f you're looking for pure umbers fight Twins and primo are prime examples. horridon to me really isn't a numbers fight but the more numbers you have the fight gets tons and tons easier. if you're not destroying the adds then yes you do have to deal with the mechanics properly and pink dinos of hell.

[Berianther]

ra-den is neither number nor mechanic fight, the dps requirement is very low for a 12/13H guild and barely any mechanics other than the rotation/orbs. It's just an easy boss that I would rank around similar difficulty as H Jinrokh when we first did it in non heroic gear.

[Blood Fox]

yes BERI!!!

but the thing about ra-den is there is little lenancy with the mechanics. you either do the rotation right or you wipe.

[Deleted]

I took a look at your guild's logs and your guild's numbers, while decent, will probably not be enough to carry you through heroic fights with minimal mechanics. Of the fights that are very similar to normal mode but just higher numbers required, I'd say Horridon, Council, Tortos (if you kill bats), Primordius, Iron Qon and Twins are the fights that are more throughput dependent than having excellent execution. Here's a breakdown of how I see each fight.

Horridon - Mostly a numbers fight, almost exactly normal mechanics. Simple mechanic fails though (i.e. standing in shit) gets you killed.
Council - 100% numbers fight, mechanically very easy especially if you cheese Frostbite (see Council thread)
Tortos - Execution fight. If you have good numbers though, killing bats is easy.
Megaera - You need good numbers healing wise, but execution and positioning is one of the hardest this tier.
Ji-kun - Execution fight, but with good numbers you can burn boss before it gets too tricky.
Durumu - Execution and numbers fight.
Primo - Pure numbers fight.
Animus - Execution fight. If your numbers are exceptional you can try the zerg.
Iron Qon - Numbers help here, but when I've pugged this with guilds not so good on mechanics, Windstorm is challenging.
Twins - Almost purely numbers.

Lei Shen is both and Ra-den is almost purely numbers.

Not sure what you're on about. Lei Shen is about both execution and numbers.

[Deleted]

Not sure what you're on about. Lei Shen is about both execution and numbers.

He did say Lei Shen is both

[Deleted]

The same can be said about breathing, doesn't mean it's at all challenging though.

You Sir made my day.

On Topic: I don't think council is a good choice for your second heroic kill. You can cheese frostbite with a good setup, but compared to Ji-kun or Iron Qon this fight is really hard.

[Sonnillon]

Iron Qon IMHO even with good DPS is harder then Horridon or Ji-kun. Just cause on Ji-kun you can bruteforce yourself through the adds/boss, nps, just have to have the numbers. Same for Horridon, which doesn't have anything else then the usual don't stand in shit and knock your dino back.

Iron Qon however - if people are not careful -> spear will kill ; wrong spreading will kill; not good enough on Windstorm you die. High DPS helps, but if your raiders struggle with mechanics for whatever reason, I'd leave it for now.

So I would say give Ji-kun a try and then go for Horridon. There are not much difficulty mechanics vise on those bosses.

[Deleted]

I'd rank them (in ascending difficulty):

1. Ji'kun - execution, numbers will make you take less nests
2. Jin'rokh - execution, numbers will give less lightning phases
3. Ra'den - execution, if you can reach Ra'den, you have the numbers, if one person fucks up on the mechanics, it's a wipe
4. Primordius - numbers, if your tanks aren't braindead
5. Iron Qon - execution, higher dps and healing will significantly trivialize this fight though
6. Twin Consorts - numbers, mechanics are very easy, it's all about meeting the enrage timer
7. Tortos - numbers, yeah
8. Horridon - both, if people don't do what they're supposed to do, you wipe, if there's not enough dps on the adds or Jalak, you wipe
9. Council of Elders - numbers, if you don't have the dps to get down the possessed targets you're fucked
10. Megaera - both, higher dps will mean less adds, if you fuckup on icebeam, you wipe
11. Durumu - both, higher dps is less add phases, if you fail on doing an add phase correctly or die in the maze you wipe
12. Dark Animus - both, higher dps means less jolts which significantly helps and higher healing will absolutely be good as well, one misstep (literally :P) on the mechanics and you wipe
13. Lei Shen - execution, I'd say that numbers make phase 3 slightly easier but it's all about the transitions, handling balls and thunderstrucks, moving between platforms etc.

I don't think there are any purely dps checks.

[Deleted]

The same can be said about breathing, doesn't mean it's at all challenging though.

Hahaha you win!

I would always go iron qon before horridon. If you have good numbers like you say, horridon will be just as easy (you need good tanks though). Before that I would go ji-kun though.

[Keashaa]

Need to correct you...

I'd rank them (in ascending difficulty):

1. Ji'kun - execution, numbers will make you take less nests
2. Jin'rokh - execution, numbers will give less lightning phases
3. Ra'den - execution, if you can reach Ra'den, you have the numbers, if one person fucks up on the mechanics, it's a wipe
4. Primordius - both, as you need to maximize the time all your dps are mutated for bloodlust
5. Iron Qon - execution, higher dps and healing will significantly trivialize this fight though
6. Twin Consorts - numbers, mechanics are very easy, it's all about meeting the enrage timer
7. Tortos - both, people need to dodge stones and watch their healing buff
8. Horridon - both, if people don't do what they're supposed to do, you wipe, if there's not enough dps on the adds or Jalak, you wipe
9. Council of Elders - both, you need to learn correct positioning for the new adds as well as you can take the debuff without dying
10. Megaera - both, higher dps will mean less adds, if you fuckup on icebeam, you wipe
11. Durumu - both, higher dps is less add phases, if you fail on doing an add phase correctly or die in the maze you wipe
12. Dark Animus - both, higher dps means less jolts which significantly helps and higher healing will absolutely be good as well, one misstep (literally :P) on the mechanics and you wipe
13. Lei Shen - both, if you can't push the first transition fast enough, one circuit will overload and then you're f*cked

[tryxx]

Anyone knows if you need a requirement for heroic twins? Since we are also pretty good at numbers but not mecanics. So far we have jin/ji-kun/horridon/tortos down I was thinking of going straight to twins but when killing IQ on normal and switching to heroic mode, the door behind him would never open. Bug or it is intended?

[Deleted]

4. Primordius - both, as you need to maximize the time all your dps are mutated for bloodlust

Meh, Primordius falls over anyway, doesn't really matter what you do :P

13. Lei Shen - both, if you can't push the first transition fast enough, one circuit will overload and then you're f*cked

Tbh, if you can reach Lei Shen, you should have the dps to push the first transition.

[urashh]

Our guild takes the first 2 platform eggs on heroic Ji Kun and then burn boss. Its not really a dps check at all. This late in the tier every guild should be able to do this with no problem.

[Viromand]

8. Horridon - both, if people don't do what they're supposed to do, you wipe, if there's not enough dps on the adds or Jalak, you wipe

Horridon is a pure dps fight, have alot of dps for adds you win, pinkdino is a very easy to handle and unless you melee you have no problems with any of the mechanics. You dont even ahve to dps the boss, it even makes it easier not

6. Twin Consorts - numbers, mechanics are very easy, it's all about meeting the enrage timer

not that hard you can do it with 3 healers and let a dps player draw, and you still have almost no problems with the enrage timer, unless you lack alot of gear. Its easily twohealable, but to add having people get stuned every 10 seconds will wipe kill you.

Iron Qon - Numbers help here, but when I've pugged this with guilds not so good on mechanics, Windstorm is challenging.

purely execution, no dps check no healing check. If you have a warlock windstrom doenst even matter. With a enhancement shaman you can easily two heal it. All dog phase you just need to kill atleast one before he uses smash for the first time it doesnt even matter which one. But still mechanics are really easy and are very forgiving, gettign caught in windstorm is not equal to death if you ahve healers outside already. even spears dont oneshot.

We are a 10 man guild with players that are solid on the numbers, but aren't always the best at handling crazy raid mechanics. It took us much longer than I hoped to finish Heroic Jin'rokh because people still don't know how to dodge things, and our Monk ended up solo healing for about 2 minutes of our kill. But we're all posting great numbers and I'm sure that gear-wise, we have enough potential to get a lot more kills than we actually have.

What are you considering solid on the numbers.
Jinrokh isnt really a crazy raid mechanic fight. So good on the number would mean you get 1 lighnting storm phase, and you just use cooldown there and survive. Sorry to dissapoint you but jinrokh is mechanicly an easy boss, sure everyone need some skill, but so does everyone else even twins heroic which is the only one kind of similar to jinrokh in terms of personal skill, and if you cant do jinrokh in under 2 lightning storm you will probably miss the gear for twins.

[Deja Thoris]

We've had a lot of people running undergeared alts in recent logs to catch them up, reserving their mains for progression fights and encounters they need gear on. If Council is a good numbers race then I think we should give it a shot - and give our Enhancement shaman a try at the weapon he's been missing this entire tier.

Council isn't simply a numbers race, the only numbers race is to get the possessed bosses down in time. People that have it on farm kind of forget the intricacies of it:
- Handle frostbite wrong and you are screwed. Even to cheese it you need to be on the ball with immunities. Move out too late and your buddies get gibbed, try to spam heal it without a CD rotation and you can be in trouble
- Let sandtraps grow and it can be bad news
- Handle Marli's empowerment wrong and the add's aoe the raid to death
- Dps too hard on roly-poly dudes empowerment and wipe yourself
- Tunnel bosses and fail to pass debuff over and die

Gear and good numbers make this fight easier but there are a LOT of raid wipers in this fight. If you suck at mechanics I guarantee each of those will kill you on progress. I know you want to play to your strengths but this is a mechanics trump numbers tier. You won't get far if you don't improve your mechanical abilities.

[fiestatastic]

You're not going to beat any of those bosses if you're having trouble with jin'rokh mechanics. There are no mechanics in jin'rokh ...... avoid lighting, that is super bright white against a practically black background. It has to hit you directly for you to take damage from it.

You need to figure out which ppl in your group really have trouble with that (there's some rng where a lot can spawn around one player, but never enough to kill someone), and sort that out before moving on and trying out more fights. Esp since your dps / numbers aren't really that high like you think they are to begin with.

- - - Updated - - -

just to add, the difference between jin'rokh mechanics (i.e. pretty much none) and any other fight is miles. There is no other fight with less mechanics in this tier.