Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Crit buff, how useful is it for a 10man?

    Hey guys I have been talking with my raid leader about rerolling from hunter to ele shaman for personal preference reasons aswell as the extra reinc and healing cds, and off spec healer if needed however we would then lose crit buff. I was wondering if anyone knew roughly the sort of extra raid dps this brings or how useful it is and how detrimental it would be to lose it?

    My raid leaders dead set on keeping crit buff in I was hoping if there was good evidence against then I could sway his mind

    Heres our comp (bear in mind we're a semi-casual team which currently has 4/13 hc on farm)

    Prot Pally
    Blood Dk
    Holy Pally
    Holy Pally
    Resto Shaman
    Enhance Shaman
    Unholy/Frost Dk
    Balance Druid
    Destro/Demo Warlock
    Hunter (me)
    (sometimes a disc priest, shadow priest and mage come in when we need/want them although the mage isnt part of the guild)

    Any help would be great thanks!
    Lightplay - Shadow Priest

    For once maybe someone will call me "Sir" without adding "You're making a scene"

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by lightplay View Post
    Hey guys I have been talking with my raid leader about rerolling from hunter to ele shaman for personal preference reasons aswell as the extra reinc and healing cds, and off spec healer if needed however we would then lose crit buff. I was wondering if anyone knew roughly the sort of extra raid dps this brings or how useful it is and how detrimental it would be to lose it?

    My raid leaders dead set on keeping crit buff in I was hoping if there was good evidence against then I could sway his mind

    Heres our comp (bear in mind we're a semi-casual team which currently has 4/13 hc on farm)

    Prot Pally
    Blood Dk
    Holy Pally
    Holy Pally
    Resto Shaman
    Enhance Shaman
    Unholy/Frost Dk
    Balance Druid
    Destro/Demo Warlock
    Hunter (me)
    (sometimes a disc priest, shadow priest and mage come in when we need/want them although the mage isnt part of the guild)

    Any help would be great thanks!


    I don't understand how someone doing current Heroic content would not be able to understand why a static 5% crit buff is an awesome thing. On my dk, I have approx 20% (A little higher, just making math easier) crit. 20% is 1/5. Therefore, on any given ability that uses crit, I have essentially a 1 in 5 chance to crit. With a crit buff of 5%, that now jumps up to 25% or 1/4, meaning i have a 1 in 4 chance to crit. It is a huge bonus and your raid leader is correct in wanting to keep the crit buff in his raid. The other nice thing about crit is that EVERYONE uses crit, unlike other buffs, such as spell haste. Dk's dont use spell haste, everything is instant. Everyone uses crit though. Good luck on your heroic progression, hope that helped some

  3. #3
    Your Moonkin is going to hate you. Not only is he missing his crit buff, but he has to Faerie Fire everything too.. how humiliating!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by lightplay View Post
    (bear in mind we're a semi-casual team which currently has 4/13 hc on farm)
    Ignoring all the rest for just a moment, I think this is the key phrase to really focus on. You aren't a part of a top-end, hardcore-at-all-costs group that needs to stack the raid for every fight that comes along ala Paragon or the like (and nor am I part of such a group either, to be fair). Therefore, the ultimate consideration should really be, considering the group dynamics and capability of those involved, is the addition (or lack thereof) of 5% crit really going to make or break any particular encounter or situation for you or your teammates? Without a doubt, the answer is no.

    My own guild, for example, is currently 13/13H, but we spent the first 10 Heroic bosses of this tier (as well as the last few from the previous tier) without any form of crit due to a small roster and no solid applicants to fill that slot. Sure, a buff such as 5% crit is a noticeable improvement for your raid as a whole, but never will you find a situation -- outside of the BLEEDING EDGE use case scenarios of which neither of our groups belong -- where the lack of a particular minor raid buff or debuff is the deciding factor in the success or failure of the raid as a whole. Content designs are just not that strict for appropriately geared players these days.

    As for the actual mathematical benefits that 5% crit provides, that's a difficult question without simulations for each class/spec, but generally it's considered primarily for the boost to DPS classes. However, even if looking at classes purely with 200% critical damage modifiers, it isn't strictly a 5% damage boost, since all DPS will have an innate level of crit already, so 5% extra is not actually a 5% gain.

    For example, if I have 25% crit chance baseline as a DPS and I do 1000 DPS baseline (just for simple maths, the numbers are the same at higher realistic values as well), then my actual DPS would be 1000 * (1 - 0.25) + 1000 * 2 * (0.25) = 750 + 500 = 1250 DPS (again assuming a I'm a 200% crit modifier class). Now, adding another 5% crit increases my crit to 30%, which gives us a new DPS output of: 1000 * (1 - 0.30) + 1000 * 2 * (0.30) = 700 + 600 = 1300 DPS, which is actually a 4% increase in damage. And the next 5% crit from 30 - 35% is only 3.8% more damage, and so it goes. Effectively, each boost in crit is a slightly smaller overall increase in damage output as you approach 100% chance.

    This is a very simplistic view of the mathematics, and again many factors determine the actual benefit such as how useful crit as a stat is for particular class/spec combinations, what crit levels and crit modifiers individuals already have, and the like. But it's a safe bet to effectively say the actual benefit to your raid provided by 5% crit is somewhere in the ballpark of 3-4% damage (plus a VERY small amount of extra effective healing, since unlike DPS, healing is often overhealing, especially from crits).

    Quote Originally Posted by lightplay View Post
    My raid leaders dead set on keeping crit buff in I was hoping if there was good evidence against then I could sway his mind
    You won't find any good evidence against having crit in the raid, but again the key factor, at least in my opinion and from my own experience, is that a minor buff will never make or break the success of the raid. Playing better will always be the primary factor in the success of the group, again especially as a non-cutting edge raid that is progressing through current content.

    Hope that helps, good luck!

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Bizerk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bulgaria
    Posts
    575
    Another way you can look at it is that you need these buffs to help make up for not raiding longer hours. Some classes also benefit a lot more from crit leading to a larger increase than conventional math would indicate.

  6. #6
    As a guild that is trying and killing at least some HC bosses this question doesn't have to be asked in my opinion. You need every possible buff you can get, especially in 10m, and crit hurts a lot for all classes even if it's not the primary stat for everyone. It's the same like wondering if you really need the +300 buff food when there's banquets. Of course you do. You either do it right or let it be entirely.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The Kao View Post
    It's the same like wondering if you really need the +300 buff food when there's banquets. Of course you do. You either do it right or let it be entirely.
    No offense, but I think this actually disproves the point you're trying to make. My group has never forced 300 stat food and we just use banquets entirely. Again, OP isn't a member of a high-end guild, he or she is (in their own words) part of a "semi-casual team" at 4/13H. Min-maxing IS NOT the name of the game in the slightest, and the implication that another 25 primary stat from a 300 food (out of a typical stat pool of 25,000 primary stat for many players) is going to make the difference is ridiculous.

    The reality is that 5% crit (or any other single random buff/debuff for that matter) will not make or break an encounter for a group of this caliber (no disrespect intended, as mentioned in my last post my group was in the same situation for a time). Individual skill and overall group strategy will be FAR more important than relying on what another 3% raid damage can do.

  8. #8
    thanks for the input people, I do appreciate that crit buff is better than not crit buff which is quite obvious but I also feel with the nerf to bosses via item upgrades does improve the margin of error which is provides a nice gateway for raiding teams like mine to kill HCs. I definitely tend to agree more with kulldam.

    Thanks a lot I appreciate all the answers!
    Lightplay - Shadow Priest

    For once maybe someone will call me "Sir" without adding "You're making a scene"

  9. #9
    If your raidleader is set of keeping all buffs there is not much you can do.
    Accept it or find another guild.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder View Post
    Another way you can look at it is that you need these buffs to help make up for not raiding longer hours. Some classes also benefit a lot more from crit leading to a larger increase than conventional math would indicate.
    That's why I mentioned the Boomkin. More Crits = more Shooting Stars = more instant Starsurges. It will also affect your Resto Shaman disproportionately.

  11. #11
    yeah I talked to my raidleader some more after reading your comments we're just gonna have the mage come on full time and rotate our roster if we feel we need it, this thread helped a lot thanks for all the advice
    Lightplay - Shadow Priest

    For once maybe someone will call me "Sir" without adding "You're making a scene"

  12. #12
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    9,066
    I think if you bring more Paladins, it'll be insanely useful!

  13. #13
    Hyve we were discussing changing our dk to ret pally cos u know, lol class stacking, I was wondering if someone would comment on that eh it seems to work for us
    Lightplay - Shadow Priest

    For once maybe someone will call me "Sir" without adding "You're making a scene"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by The Kao View Post
    As a guild that is trying and killing at least some HC bosses this question doesn't have to be asked in my opinion. You need every possible buff you can get, especially in 10m, and crit hurts a lot for all classes even if it's not the primary stat for everyone. It's the same like wondering if you really need the +300 buff food when there's banquets. Of course you do. You either do it right or let it be entirely.
    Warlocks would like to have a word with you.

  15. #15
    Since when does having a optimal setup in 10 man being something only paragon and the very top guilds should care about? If you are progressing heroic modes a better setup with all buffs will help the whole raid, even if you are on 4 or 13 heroics. Calling that min maxing is going way too far, it is a small adjustment that will do you better than a ele shaman will, especially with two shamans in the raid already.

    As i see tho if your mage is going full time the problem is sorted

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CrippleshoT View Post
    Since when does having a optimal setup in 10 man being something only paragon and the very top guilds should care about? If you are progressing heroic modes a better setup with all buffs will help the whole raid, even if you are on 4 or 13 heroics. Calling that min maxing is going way too far, it is a small adjustment that will do you better than a ele shaman will, especially with two shamans in the raid already.
    You're doing a fantastic job of misstating what was actually said (notably without quoting directly), so let me clarify once again. I, nor anyone really, is suggesting that only a top-end guild should be focused on an optimal composition, and to imply that this was stated or intended is quite false. Further, I also never stated that having all raid buffs is mix-maxing, I specifically referenced the need to use 300 stat food as min-maxing (in relation to the nearly beneficially identical 275 stat food).

    Since you seem to be referring to my points in particular yet aren't really getting what I've been saying all along, I'll repeat it once again -- my point toward Lightplay and others is that there is not an inherent need for the 5% crit buff to make or break his or her raid group. Obviously no one is suggesting not having a particular raid buff/debuff is somehow better than having everything possible, but the fact of the matter is a ~3% damage gain from the aforementioned crit will never be the deciding factor in a successful kill or not, compared to simply playing better or getting more gear. This gap is further emphasized for "semi-casual" groups, of which Lightplay considers him- or herself.

  17. #17
    There is also no inherent need for a 10th person in the raid. Crit isn't a minor thing like 300 food buff. It's by far the strongest raid buff with bloodlust. Going without crit is pretty close to missing half a raider and 9 1/2 manning content. It's possible to kill bosses without it., but you'll be making things much harder for yourself.
    Last edited by paraalso; 2013-07-16 at 08:27 AM.

  18. #18
    5% crit is about 3-4% extra raiddps or equal to about 3-4 ilvls of gear on all the dps. Since the enhance shammy/balance druid can already support healing I would just stay on the hunter unless you get a mage.

  19. #19
    As a rl I really wouldn't want to go without crit buff, for my team at least missing that extra 3-5% dps and healing would probably of slowed us down by 2 or 3 weeks over the whole tier.
    Comparing crit buff to 300 food is just silly they're not even in the same league...

    Having a hunter in a 10 man is very nice as they can fill in any missing buff, your tanks will like having MD on any add fights but looking at your comp one of the biggest things a hunter brings is the ability to solo soak with deterrence a sham can only do that once every 30 min
    Daishan @ Saurfang EU
    "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

  20. #20
    Crit buff affects every single person (just like Mastery buff).

    I think it is one of the most important buffs to try and get.

    We did some sims a while back and in a fight that you are going with 6 dps it was pretty close to having 1/2 another person (we do roll with a fury warrior and a boomer though and they value crit a lot).

    It is not even remotely comparable to having 25 extra stats each from food.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •