Does Obamacare kill labor unions?

[Biged781]

In short it is a clear cut way for a corporation to increase their profit margins by shitting on those who actually do all the real work to keep said companies afloat.

Are they really "shitting" on them? I want to hire someone to run my cash register or stock my shelves. This is a *0* skill position, any breathing, mobile person can do it. Why should I pay 5x+ what this person makes in salary for their health insurance? You want perks and more money? Learn a marketable skill.

As for the union issue, well... if government provided healthcare makes them obsolete then I suppose they should just go away. Why should they exist if they provide no real value, if there's nothing to fight for?

[Fugus]

Are they really "shitting" on them? I want to hire someone to run my cash register or stock my shelves. This is a *0* skill position, any breathing, mobile person can do it. Why should I pay 5x+ what this person makes in salary for their health insurance? You want perks and more money? Learn a marketable skill.

As for the union issue, well... if government provided healthcare makes them obsolete then I suppose they should just go away. Why should they exist if they provide no real value, if there's nothing to fight for?

Tell me, what is it like in the mind of a Sociopath? Do you care for anyone at all or do you just fake it for the ones you know you are supposed to care about so it doesn't look negatively on you? Not sarcasm either.

[Mukki]

It isn't a false dilemma; going after terrorists and insurgents with more traditional means results in higher casualty rates for American troops - the drones provide a much safer alternative.

Keep hiding from those jihadists under your bed. It's funny, if this was 2004, I'd swear you were a Bush supporter.

[Wells]

Keep hiding from those jihadists under your bed. It's funny, if this was 2004, I'd swear you were a Bush supporter.

You can recognize there are bad people out there that need to be dealt with without living in fear.

[Akylios]

Why should I pay 5x+ what this person makes in salary for their health insurance? You want perks and more money? Learn a marketable skill.

You shouldn't. Any union demanding this would be unreasonable. You Americans choose your own health care system. It's your choice to have both the cost of your insurance policies, as well as your health care system in general, exceptionally expensive for the individual. It would be silly for the unions to demand that businesses somehow pay for this, as it's not the businesses who made this choice for the public. No business should ever pay health insurance for its employees and any employee expecting this sounds like a fool to me. I say this as a business owner myself. The mere notion is ridiculous to me.

If you want cheaper health care for the individual, all the public has to do is want it and vote for it. Since you don't want it, just pay for your current health care yourself and stop whining for businesses paying it for you. Such a stupid idea.

As for the union issue, well... if government provided healthcare makes them obsolete then I suppose they should just go away. Why should they exist if they provide no real value, if there's nothing to fight for?

Health care is very cheap in my country, yet over 90% of the work force is unionized. The employers also have unions. These unions strike deals about minimum wages, benefits, wages in general, sick days, number of vacation days and so on and so forth. Since both sides tend to be equally strong, both sides have learned to be reasonable. Strikes and work bans are almost unheard of, regardless of whether the economy is strong or weak.

[Biged781]

Tell me, what is it like in the mind of a Sociopath? Do you care for anyone at all or do you just fake it for the ones you know you are supposed to care about so it doesn't look negatively on you? Not sarcasm either.

Yes, because I believe in personal responsibility and hard work I must be a sociopath.

I hate healthcare in the U.S. It is abysmal and far, *far* too expensive. However, that's a different issue entirely. I'm talking about what sort of incentives are given to employees. Sorry, you may not like to hear it, but if you have no appreciable skills then you're not worth much as an employee. You can be replaced by *anyone*. If that makes you feel bad for these people then fine, but it's reality in a free market economy.

Why does a business exist? To make a profit of course. I'm not going to pay some cashier 60k+ / year all told just to be "nice". It's a ridiculous proposition. Let's not forget that this person has a job only because said business is successful. Again; you want to make more money? Learn to do something useful. Why anyone would expect full healthcare for stocking shelves is beyond me.

EDIT: Let me put it another way.

I think we as a country spend far too much on the military and far (*far*) too little on healthcare and education. It's a ridiculous ratio that should make us all feel ashamed. Also, let's not forget that healthcare could be much cheaper than it is today. Those who are screwing the system up need to go (i.e., why are insurance companies being subsidized by Obama Care? Oh, right, lobbyists and money...)

I do *not* think that it is WalMart's responsibility to provide everyone who works for them with healthcare. Their responsibility is to pay wages commensurate with the value that a given employee provides to the company. Clerks and shelf stockers provide very little value and are easily replaced, so they make very little.

WalMart has no incentive or reason to pay these people large sums of money. The idea is that you make what you deserve, and "deserve" isn't defined as "being a nice person". People who add relatively more value will almost always make more than those who add less. It's a system I believe in.

I am not a fan of a large, overreaching government, but I do believe that we have our priorities screwed up. I pay ~40% of what I earn in taxes every year. If I have to pay it I would much rather see that money go to schools and people who truly need health care who simply cannot afford it.

[Raeph]

Considering the article the Labor Unions will be hit particularly hard by this change in the health care system because that is the main marketing point of Unions. "Allow us to collectively bargain on your behalf and we'll get you better wages and benefits, in exchange for X% of your pay as dues."

In US history though unions were more concerned with the health, safety and legitimate pay of works.

19th century, unions were mainly going up against Mining, Rail and Shipping Barons for safer working conditions, the right to be paid in currency and not company script and for the right not to be intimidated by the company for speaking up against working conditions.

20th century, unions were mainly going up against transportation, mining and industrial fabrication, such as machine manufacturing and steel works among others, for fair pay, better working hours, safe conditions and protection from reprisal for voicing concerns.

Mid-20th century however the government stepped in with wage controls to curb inflation after WW2 and Korea (look up the OPA and OPS respectively) which forced companies and unions, bargaining for improved employee pay to increase the benefits by company provided healthcare as a way out of the wage controls. The Federal government gave approval to those arrangements by letting the companies deduct health insurance premiums as a business expense similar to currency wages.

Late-20th century with safety legislation and the introduction of the EPA(1970) and OSHA (1970) employee safety, with regard to working conditions is guaranteed by federal efforts, and no longer an issue of Union Pressure.

Late-20th century with repeated boom-bust economic cycles, as well as increased life expectancy, Unions began negotiating for better pensions for retirees, both to increase employee benefits as well as to increase union participation. "Allow us to collectively bargain for you and when you retire you can a better retirement that without the Union."

End of 20th Century the federal government introduced rules for retirement accounts (401ks, IRAs) that potentially rivaled the pension payouts. Coupled with the boom-bust cycles of the markets companies began to push for more employee sharing in the risk of the retirement accounts. Unions in the private sector mainly conceded the issue and private sector pensions saw a significant decline.

21th century with the near continuous recession from 2000 through current businesses in all sectors are looking to cut costs as much as possible, using technology to replace low-no skill positions and using moderately trained, skilled and experienced workers to maintain the technology, rather than maintaining a more robust corporate workforce. With the continued and progressive automation of low skill-high risk occupations, with government inspectors verifying safety compliance, and soon health care subsidized by the government union attractiveness has fallen in the private sector so much so that private sector union participation is at 6.6% at the end of 2012. (see Bureau of Labor Statistics website)

Conclusion: If unions are to survive they will need to find a way to unite workers in industries by a common goal that threatens them, and provide the collective bargaining service at a cost effective rate, for the benefits acquired.

Currently with incomes essentially flat over the last several years, healthcare and workplace safety largely maintained by the government, retirement options that the employee can exercise on their own behalf and under their full control and businesses using technology more and more to automate their workforce and eliminate low and no skill positions unions are in trouble.

The issue is two fold; the increase in a skilled labor force leads to a more independent minded worker who is highly individualistic about their career because of increased education and secondly the current political activism of high profile unions which use union dues to lobby on behalf of their members not only to their partner companies but also to the government.

The first issue may seem like a put down on low and no skilled labor however I don't think you can argue against the fact that if you have some college, vocational training or a college degree you have an expanded view of your possibilities because of that greater education. Until you personally have come to the end of your own will as well as the limits of your current education level most will generally bank that they do not need the help of others. If you personally reach the end of the possibilities of your own education and still have the will for it you will gain more to increase your skill level to continue to progress. I do not mean to say that low and no skilled workers have no will or personal vision, however they lack the education to put it to use on their behalf.

The second issue strikes at the core of out democratic society, in that we each have a voice and that it is wrong for our voice not to be heard or for someone else to speak for me. I will not say if the issues that unions champion is wrong or right however the recent lawsuit currently in the 9th circuit court of appeals, by several California teachers, and a mirroring lawsuit in Texas, by airline employees, shows that employees who are forced to pay non-union dues (employees who work in states or certain industries are forced to pay dues to a union who collective bargains on behalf of all workers in the group even if they choose to not be a member of the union) are trying to separate themselves from the unions. I don't think that it is a stretch to say that if these two lawsuits find in favor of the plaintiffs that we might see more people choose to distance themselves from unions that they don't fully believe in, both in the collective bargain agreements as well as the political activism.

I don't think that the law outright kills unions, but I think that if unions don't change themselves they may become irrelevant in their own right.

[DrStiglit]

Are they really "shitting" on them? I want to hire someone to run my cash register or stock my shelves. This is a *0* skill position, any breathing, mobile person can do it. Why should I pay 5x+ what this person makes in salary for their health insurance? You want perks and more money? Learn a marketable skill.

As for the union issue, well... if government provided healthcare makes them obsolete then I suppose they should just go away. Why should they exist if they provide no real value, if there's nothing to fight for?

I agree with you about the Wal-Mart situation.. Healthcare is part of a benefits package to attract "skilled, qualified, valuable" employees to a workplace. A Wal-Mart employee is none of those things. If you want healthcare go get and education and develop a skill that is needed by a company that will hire you.

Unions aren't obsolete everywhere and in a sense are a necessary evil. But they have def overstepped their boundaries and need to be taken down a peg or 2.. I live in LA now but lived in OC for 6 months before moving. Both are incredibly expensive to live in but LA has much better paying positions due to unions..

[smelltheglove]

These things are a lot less funny when they're accurate

Bummer, eh?

accurate complaints i have no issue with, those things should be raised and addressed. the guy you quoted was addressing a bullshit rhetoric complaint, the type that needs to die in fire, as all they do is make intelligent discussion all but impossible

[Underverse]

Unions are pieces of shit, mostly. Just a little less smelly than the employers.

[Åmbulance]

Unions are pieces of shit, mostly. Just a little less smelly than the employers.

I dunno, at least you expect the employer to fuck you. Not the people who are supposed to be looking out for you, and you pay to look out for you.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

My issue is. If places are supporting Obamacare and then decide *OH SHIT ITS BAD FOR US NOOOO QQ* Sorry I just find something fishy about that. I'm not saying Obamacare is bad(Have no opinion on it since I have to wait 2 more years until I have to get my own health insurance until then I'm with my parents so thanks Obama ^_^).


I mean do these unions and or places look into these things or are they just that stupid?

[Underverse]

I dunno, at least you expect the employer to fuck you. Not the people who are supposed to be looking out for you, and you pay to look out for you.

Yeah. They demand payment and then do whatever they want, because in the end they're looking out for themselves and not the people they try to protect. So the employee gets doubly screwed.

[Puremallace]

Ding fucking Ding!!

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the whole thing falls apart in a year or so.

I work in hospital finance and the below is why I say fuck whoever does not like this law

Source: http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts/...-National.html

Increasing Access to Affordable Care

Millions of Americans have gained new access to more affordable health coverage and care.

Coverage for young adults: 3.1 million young adults who were uninsured have gained coverage by being able to stay on their parent’s health plan, giving their families peace of mind.
Access to free preventive services: 71 million additional Americans now receive coverage through their private health insurance plan for many preventive services without cost sharing such as copays or deductibles. That means that more Americans will receive wellness visits, cancer screenings and other services that will help them get and stay healthy. Women can now get coverage— without cost-sharing—of even more preventive services they need. Approximately 47 million women now have guaranteed access to additional preventive services without cost-sharing for policies renewing on or after August 1, 2012.
Coverage for people with pre-existing conditions: Nearly 115,000 Americans with pre-existing conditions have gained coverage through the Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan. This temporary program makes health coverage available and more affordable for individuals who are uninsured and have been denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition.
Investing in primary care: The health care law invests in training and supporting thousands of new primary care doctors and nurses by providing bonus payments, scholarships and loan repayment, and new training opportunities.
Community Health Centers: Community Health Centers improve the health of the nation and assure access to quality primary health care services at more than 8,900 service delivery sites around the country. Since the beginning of 2009, health centers have increased the total number of patients served on an annual basis by 3.1 million.

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Making Care More Affordable

The health care law is bringing down health care costs and making sure health care dollars are spent wisely.

80/20 Rule: The health insurance companies of 76 million Americans now have to meet the 80/20 rule, or Medical Loss Ratio, where they must spend at least 80 cents of your premium dollar on your health care or improvements to care. If they fail to meet this standard, they must provide a rebate to their customers. Already, the 80/20 rule is helping deliver rebates worth $1.1 billion to nearly 13 million consumers – an average rebate of $151 per household.
Reviewing premium increases: For the first time ever in every State, insurance companies must publicly justify any rate increase of 10% or more. And the law gives States new resources to review and block these premium hikes. To date, rate review has helped save an estimated $1 billion for Americans and 42 States have used their rate review grant funds to make the rate review process stronger and more transparent. Since this rule was implemented, the number of requests for insurance premium increases of 10% or more has dropped dramatically, from 75% to 14%. The average premium increase for all rates in 2012 was 30% below what it was in 2010, and this slowdown has continued into 2013.
Small business tax credits: Small businesses have long paid a higher price for health insurance – often 18% more than larger employers. Tax credits for small businesses will benefit an estimated two million workers who get their insurance from an estimated 360,000 small employers who received the credit in 2011. In 2014, small business owners will get more relief with tax credits and affordable insurance choices in the new competitive health insurance marketplace in every State.
Supporting early retiree coverage: The Early Retiree Reinsurance Program (ERRP) has provided $5 billion in reinsurance payments to employers so they can continue to provide benefits to their retired workers who are not yet eligible for Medicare. This program has reduced premiums or cost sharing for at least 19 million early retirees, workers, their spouses, surviving spouses and dependents.

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Strengthening Medicare

More than 50 million seniors and Americans with disabilities depend on Medicare every day. The health care law makes Medicare stronger and extends the life of the Medicare Trust Fund by ten years.

Reducing prescription drug costs in Medicare: Over 6 million seniors and people with disabilities have saved more than $5.7 billion on prescription drugs thanks to the Affordable Care Act. These savings include a one-time $250 rebate check to seniors who fell into the prescription drug coverage gap known as the “donut hole” in 2010, and a 50% discount on brand-name drugs. Seniors in the “donut hole” have saved an average of $706.
Medicare preventive benefits: The Affordable Care Act makes many key preventive services available with no co-pay or deductible to help ensure that seniors don’t have to skip a potentially life-saving cancer screening because they can’t afford it. In 2012 alone, an estimated 34.1 million seniors received one or more free preventive services, including the new Annual Wellness Visit.
Saving money for seniors: The average person with Medicare will save approximately $5,000 from 2010 to 2022, while those with high prescription drug costs will save much more – as much as $18,000 over the same period. This is especially good news for people with chronic conditions such as diabetes and high blood pressure who must take their medication every day for many years.
Fighting fraud and saving taxpayer dollars: The health care law helps stop fraud with tougher screening procedures, stronger penalties, and new technology. In 2012, the government’s health care fraud prevention and enforcement efforts recovered a record $4.2 billion in taxpayer dollars from fraudsters. And for every dollar spent on health care-related fraud and abuse investigations in the last three years we recovered $7.90. Over the last four years, the administration’s enforcement efforts have recovered $14.9 billion. And in total since 1997, the Health Care Fraud and Abuse Control Program has returned more than $23 billion to the Medicare Trust Fund. Learn more about these efforts at StopMedicareFraud.gov.

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Holding Insurance Companies Accountable

Under the law, patients have more rights and protections – and more security that their coverage will be there for them when they need it. For example:

No more pre-existing condition denials for children: The parents of over 17.6 million children with pre-existing conditions no longer have to worry that their children will be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition.
No more lifetime dollar limits on coverage: 105 million Americans no longer have a lifetime dollar limit on essential health benefits. Annual dollar limits are set at increasingly higher amounts until January 1, 2014 when most plans issued or renewed are banned from having an annual dollar limit on coverage.
Insurance companies can’t drop your coverage when you get sick: You no longer need to fear that your insurance company can rescind or take away coverage when they get sick because of an unintentional mistake on an application.
No more coverage denials without appeal: Many Americans with private coverage now have the right to appeal an insurance company’s coverage decision and the Affordable Care Act provides you with information and assistance to give you more control over your health care decisions.

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Laying the Foundation for 2014

Starting in 2014, the Health Insurance Marketplace will make it easy for you to compare qualified health plans, get answers to questions, find out if you are eligible for tax credits for private insurance or health programs like Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and enroll in a health plan that meets your needs.

Building the Health Insurance Marketplace: The Affordable Care Act gives States the resources and power to build and run their own Marketplace, sometimes called an Exchange. Forty-nine States, the District of Columbia, and four territories have, having received at total of nearly $3.9 billion in Exchange Grants.
Ensuring Health Insurance Choices: The Affordable Care Act creates a new type of non-profit health insurer, called a Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan (CO-OP). These insurers are run by their members. CO-OPs are meant to offer consumer-friendly, affordable health insurance options to individuals and small businesses. To date, a total of 24 non-profits offering coverage in 24 states have been awarded over $1.9 billion.
Banning the Worst Insurance Practices: Starting in 2014, the Affordable Care Act will prohibit health insurers from charging more or denying coverage to people because of pre-existing conditions. It will also make charging women more for health insurance a thing of the past.

[Sivick]

the corporation you work for would harvest your organs and drain every drop of blood in your body if they could get a decent profit margin on it and get away with it. come to think of it.... the banks already did that.

[Biged781]

I work in hospital finance and the below is why I say fuck whoever does not like this law

Source: http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts/...-National.html

I'm actually for the law... but hesitantly. I know first hand what our health system is here as my mother has cancer and makes (very little) over 12k / year. Her boyfriend makes a bit more, so they're above the poverty line and she gets little to no benefits. That sucks of course because she needs surgery.

However, I question the implementation. We are keeping insurance companies in business... why exactly? The sole task of an insurance company is to assess risk. The new plan *guarantees* them a huge pool of customers, and this is what offsets the cost of taking on people who wouldn't qualify today (pre-existing condition, etc.).

So, I ask again... why did we do it this way? Why don't we cut out the middleman and lower prices for everyone? The answer is obvious, but it is just more politics as usual, not something that actually helps people.

That said, if it helps my Mom and people like her, I'm ok with it. I just hope it isn't run into the ground. Our federal government has shown time and time again that it has no clue how to institute (or run) large, sweeping programs.

[Kujako]

We are keeping insurance companies in business... why exactly?

Because the bill would not have passed without a hand out to the corporations. Sad really. It's not totally the Republicans who are at fault however, the Democrats are really bad at selling ideas to the public. If the whole thing had been framed as "medicare for everyone" I think it would have been a slam dunk.

[Puremallace]

I'm actually for the law... but hesitantly. I know first hand what our health system is here as my mother has cancer and makes (very little) over 12k / year. Her boyfriend makes a bit more, so they're above the poverty line and she gets little to no benefits. That sucks of course because she needs surgery.

However, I question the implementation. We are keeping insurance companies in business... why exactly? The sole task of an insurance company is to assess risk. The new plan *guarantees* them a huge pool of customers, and this is what offsets the cost of taking on people who wouldn't qualify today (pre-existing condition, etc.).

So, I ask again... why did we do it this way? Why don't we cut out the middleman and lower prices for everyone? The answer is obvious, but it is just more politics as usual, not something that actually helps people.

That said, if it helps my Mom and people like her, I'm ok with it. I just hope it isn't run into the ground. Our federal government has shown time and time again that it has no clue how to institute (or run) large, sweeping programs.

Here is why you should care. Currently the FPL poverty line is pretty low. Obamacare for states participating have changes the FPL poverty line to expand Medicaid. I am well aware of how extreme bills for Oncology services can get in a extremely short period of time.

Also look at how it was created and implemented. Big insurance companies only went along with the law because of a Quid Pro Quo which allows them to compete for the business which is a crap ton and they agree to bring down rates.

Notice not a single insurance company has challenged in court the 80/20 rule? There is a reason for that.