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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immortal (not liable or subject to death)

    No, i meant immortal. Immortal and invincible mean the same thing depending upon the context you use them in. The definition of Immortal is the ability to live forever. To me that definition doesn't only mean by age, but by the ability to live forever. I think it makes more sense for their consciousness to live on forever, in a manner that destroying their physical bodies simply means that they are unable to cause direct destruction but instead do it through subjugation and other dark magics.

    And yes, I remember that script at the end of whichever dungeon, but as I said, the Titan's have been wrong quite a few times. I find it likely that they were again wrong and simply didn't understand the relationship between the Curse of Flesh and the Old Gods.

    Another possible scenario is that The Curse of Flesh is linked to a single Old God and the Titans were unable to discern which Old God was the cause. It's possible that killing the Old God who was using or enforcing the Curse of Flesh may have lead to the downfall of those who were infected (everyone).
    Here is Blizzard's definition of immortal:
    Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

    What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. In addition, they tend to be more powerful than most mortal creatures, although this tendency does not always hold true. Even godhood itself is no guarantee of superior might. Consider the titans' defeat of the Old Gods. The titans are not gods, but their vast power allowed them to imprison the Old Gods far below the surface of Azeroth.

    Furthermore, immortality need not be a lasting state of affairs. The night elves, for example, were immortal for thousands of years, but sacrificed their immortality during the Third War. Today they are a mortal race, and they are accordingly classified as such, rather than listed herein.

    There are also quite a few races and individuals who have attained immortality after leading a mortal existence. Most demons in the Burning Legion were once mortal creatures.

    Last but not least, there are creatures that can be considered nearly immortal. Technically these beings are mortal, but for one reason or other, they have a lifespan that greatly exceeds several millennia. Indeed, these mortal creatures might even be considered effectively immortal due to some external factor, as with Ysera's consorts, who almost never emerge from the Emerald Dream.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Kaddrak yells: Correct.

    That sounds like the Tribunal confirming it to me.
    Titan's lost all their credibility on what they believe to be possible/impossible when we defeated Algalon and proved that as mortals, we were able to do the impossible. No one should look at anything the titans have said on the situation as reasonable, until of course they show up and prove that they are right about something. Which to my knowledge, the only thing they were right about it are things that are irrelevant and only help 1 race gain some sort of idea as to where they came from.

    And if someone wants to argue that thanks to the Titans we have Wrathion. Congrulations, we now have a Earth Dragon who thinks he knows what's best for the world, has no one guiding him, and ultimately (from the sound files) seems more pissed off than happy that the Horde and Alliance decided that each other are necessary for the survival of Azeroth.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    Titan's lost all their credibility on what they believe to be possible/impossible when we defeated Algalon and proved that as mortals, we were able to do the impossible. No one should look at anything the titans have said on the situation as reasonable, until of course they show up and prove that they are right about something. Which to my knowledge, the only thing they were right about it are things that are irrelevant and only help 1 race gain some sort of idea as to where they came from.

    And if someone wants to argue that thanks to the Titans we have Wrathion. Congrulations, we now have a Earth Dragon who thinks he knows what's best for the world, has no one guiding him, and ultimately (from the sound files) seems more pissed off than happy that the Horde and Alliance decided that each other are necessary for the survival of Azeroth.
    Algalon being defeated was not the first time a Watcher was defeated by mortals...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Here is Blizzard's definition of immortal:
    Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

    What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. In addition, they tend to be more powerful than most mortal creatures, although this tendency does not always hold true. Even godhood itself is no guarantee of superior might. Consider the titans' defeat of the Old Gods. The titans are not gods, but their vast power allowed them to imprison the Old Gods far below the surface of Azeroth.

    Furthermore, immortality need not be a lasting state of affairs. The night elves, for example, were immortal for thousands of years, but sacrificed their immortality during the Third War. Today they are a mortal race, and they are accordingly classified as such, rather than listed herein.

    There are also quite a few races and individuals who have attained immortality after leading a mortal existence. Most demons in the Burning Legion were once mortal creatures.

    Last but not least, there are creatures that can be considered nearly immortal. Technically these beings are mortal, but for one reason or other, they have a lifespan that greatly exceeds several millennia. Indeed, these mortal creatures might even be considered effectively immortal due to some external factor, as with Ysera's consorts, who almost never emerge from the Emerald Dream.
    I still meant Immortal. I'm not sure what other word you'd like me to use to describe beings who think they are unable to die from any form. Don't say invincible because as i've linked Immortal definitely encompasses' the definition of invincible. (Old Gods are obviously not invincible either)

    So...maybe...the best word or phrase to use for Old Gods is durable?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    Are they truly immortal?

    I mean, I'm just thinking here, but the Titans didn't kill them because i'm assuming they are similar to a cancer on the planet, hurting them will in turn hurt the planet. But that doesn't mean theyre immortal. Like anything else, overtime these things lose hold as it is apparent they have.

    Okay okay, sure, you can listen to the faceless ones (biased as it gets when it comes to Old God fans) who told you that you can't truly kill an Old God. OR...you could think about it this way. The Old Gods are able to be destroyed, and it was the link between the curse of flesh and the Old Gods which prevented the Titans from destroying the Old Gods. The Titans must have thought that the Old Gods were acting with some symbiotic sort of relationship and killing them would have doomed the races of Azeroth, and maybe the planet itself.

    As far as the player knows and from the player can see. C'thun is dead. Yogg-Saron is dead. Ysaarj is dead. We have no indication in game that these entities will ever revive on their own terms. As the players end Yogg/C'thun, we see nothing to tell us that they are anything but dead, nothing of course aside from the mindless banter of the spawns of the old gods themselves. (Which, if you were trying to be threatening, you of course would douse yourself in mystery.)

    Another note.

    The titans have been wrong before, let's stop jumping to conclusions that the Old Gods are immortal based upon what Titans have told us, given that in their infinite power, they still are not perfect. The Titan's are advanced far beyond any of the races of Azeroth, but that does not mean that they truly understand the nature of every malevolent entity they encounter in their quest for order.
    C'thun, Yogg-Saron and Y'Shaarj stopped moving. So did Kael'thas when we beat him, and he famously got up again, despite being an elf and not a deity. C'thun was trying to come back through Cho'gall (all those extra eyes were his), and his "corpse" was capable of telepathy, as was demonstrated in a comic. So suffice to say, death does not work the same way for these things as it does for the mortal races.

    As for whether the Faceless Ones were outright lying, I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is this. The Law of Conservation of Detail. It makes no sense for them to say the things they do if it's not true. There is no benefit to them to lie. There isn't even a point to making them talk at all. Being silent would simply make them more mysterious, if that were the only intent. The only purpose to making them talk is to convey information to the players. If that information has changed since then, that's a retcon.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Algalon being defeated was not the first time a Watcher was defeated by mortals...
    I'm actually not sure what to call Algalon, I know Loken was a Watcher, but i'm not sure if there was any definite term given to what Algalon was aside from a possible Titan AI.

    Anyways, for further explanation, I meant that if a Titan AI/Construct, an Entity imbued with the knowledge and foresight of the titans in order to make the best decisions for a planet at a given time, is able to be wrong then so must the Titans. Think of Algalon as a computer, and computers make very little mistakes unless theirs an issue with their programming. Algalon was clean though, we're sure he wasnt corrupted, so according to the Titans programming of him and their knowledge, Azeroth was doomed, but we fought back and proved that in all his calculations of our world, that we were able to make something different happen.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immortal (not liable or subject to death)

    No, i meant immortal. Immortal and invincible mean the same thing depending upon the context you use them in. The definition of Immortal is the ability to live forever. To me that definition doesn't only mean by age, but by the ability to live forever. I think it makes more sense for their consciousness to live on forever, in a manner that destroying their physical bodies simply means that they are unable to cause direct destruction but instead do it through subjugation and other dark magics.
    Ok, but they are still immortal. The word has more than one definition. You don't get to choose which one applies. Even if they can be killed they are still immortal, just not by the specific definition you chose to focus on. As you said, it's the context they are used in but you are changing the context from what was intended.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    C'thun, Yogg-Saron and Y'Shaarj stopped moving. So did Kael'thas when we beat him, and he famously got up again, despite being an elf and not a deity. C'thun was trying to come back through Cho'gall (all those extra eyes were his), and his "corpse" was capable of telepathy, as was demonstrated in a comic. So suffice to say, death does not work the same way for these things as it does for the mortal races.

    As for whether the Faceless Ones were outright lying, I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is this. The Law of Conservation of Detail. It makes no sense for them to say the things they do if it's not true. There is no benefit to them to lie. There isn't even a point to making them talk at all. Being silent would simply make them more mysterious, if that were the only intent. The only purpose to making them talk is to convey information to the players. If that information has changed since then, that's a retcon.

    Yes, C'thun does present an issue, but as i posted several minutes ago, i see how it could be possible for an Old Gods conscious to exist, similar to how Sargeras spirit exist floating around the Twisting Nether. It's altogether possible that killing an Old Gods physical body simply ensures that they themselves no longer have direct influence over events, but may still be resurrected or do damage to the area around them through manifestation of energies and magics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Ok, but they are still immortal. The word has more than one definition. You don't get to choose which one applies. Even if they can be killed they are still immortal, just not by the specific definition you chose to focus on. As you said, it's the context they are used in but you are changing the context from what was intended.
    Nope, being killed kinda loses out on your immortality. A requirement of being immortal...is being immune to death.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    Titan's lost all their credibility on what they believe to be possible/impossible when we defeated Algalon and proved that as mortals, we were able to do the impossible. No one should look at anything the titans have said on the situation as reasonable, until of course they show up and prove that they are right about something. Which to my knowledge, the only thing they were right about it are things that are irrelevant and only help 1 race gain some sort of idea as to where they came from.

    And if someone wants to argue that thanks to the Titans we have Wrathion. Congrulations, we now have a Earth Dragon who thinks he knows what's best for the world, has no one guiding him, and ultimately (from the sound files) seems more pissed off than happy that the Horde and Alliance decided that each other are necessary for the survival of Azeroth.
    You can argue that the Titans calculations may have been wrong about the Old Gods. They aren't infallible that's for sure. I was just pointing out that the Tribunal did confirm it.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    You can argue that the Titans calculations may have been wrong about the Old Gods. They aren't infallible that's for sure. I was just pointing out that the Tribunal did confirm it.
    Oh I understand. Titans/tribunal, all the same really.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    I'm actually not sure what to call Algalon, I know Loken was a Watcher, but i'm not sure if there was any definite term given to what Algalon was aside from a possible Titan AI.

    Anyways, for further explanation, I meant that if a Titan AI/Construct, an Entity imbued with the knowledge and foresight of the titans in order to make the best decisions for a planet at a given time, is able to be wrong then so must the Titans. Think of Algalon as a computer, and computers make very little mistakes unless theirs an issue with their programming. Algalon was clean though, we're sure he wasnt corrupted, so according to the Titans programming of him and their knowledge, Azeroth was doomed, but we fought back and proved that in all his calculations of our world, that we were able to make something different happen.
    The underestimation of the denizens of Azeroth does not automatically cause all of their information to be questionable or false. The Titans placed a fail safe on Azeroth for a situation in which they deemed Azeroth lost, but the variables changed and, as a result, Algalon changed his response accordingly.

    Something such as "if the Old Gods were slain, Azeroth would die with them" is a bit more concrete. They COULD be wrong, but at the moment it's what we have to go off of.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    Nope, being killed kinda loses out on your immortality. A requirement of being immortal...is being immune to death.
    I'm not sure if you're being serious when you linked the full definition yourself...
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Kaddrak yells: Correct.

    That sounds like the Tribunal confirming it to me.
    But confirming what?
    That the Old Gods can be killed? Or that without the Old Gods, Azeroth would be destroyed?

    A last resort?
    I can't say I agree with your assessment of Titan benevolence.
    Agalon's scan system is very clearly tuned to an extremely high sensitivity.
    The chance of him finding the world unfit to continue in its current state is "Ninety-nine point nine nine percent." That's with the current level of Old God corruption. The Old Gods aren't even the largest threat on Azeroth and the Titans would have considered this level of corruption enough to completely wipe out the planet.

    Do you really think they just decided to go through all of the hassle of constructing multiple prisons and scores of fail-safes just because they didn't want to have to kill anyone?Especially considering that all of the Titan's creations are mindless slaves made out of stone and metal, and that those afflicted by the curse of flesh are corrupted. I see no reason for the belief that the Old Gods were imprisoned out of good will.

    I think it's much more likely that they went through so much effort because they couldn't do anything but contain the Old Gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomial17 View Post
    I'm actually not sure what to call Algalon, I know Loken was a Watcher, but i'm not sure if there was any definite term given to what Algalon was aside from a possible Titan AI.

    Anyways, for further explanation, I meant that if a Titan AI/Construct, an Entity imbued with the knowledge and foresight of the titans in order to make the best decisions for a planet at a given time, is able to be wrong then so must the Titans. Think of Algalon as a computer, and computers make very little mistakes unless theirs an issue with their programming. Algalon was clean though, we're sure he wasnt corrupted, so according to the Titans programming of him and their knowledge, Azeroth was doomed, but we fought back and proved that in all his calculations of our world, that we were able to make something different happen.
    This is also a very solid point.
    The Titans are not an absolute authority, especially considering we have no real evidence that the Titans themselves have ever even "killed" an Old God to know whether or not it can be done. Since the closest thing so far has been Y'shaarj, and he's hardly dead.. what with his corruption and essences still fully functional, his heart beating, and his conciousness still intact.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    The underestimation of the denizens of Azeroth does not automatically cause all of their information to be questionable or false. The Titans placed a fail safe on Azeroth for a situation in which they deemed Azeroth lost, but the variables changed and, as a result, Algalon changed his response accordingly.

    Something such as "if the Old Gods were slain, Azeroth would die with them" is a bit more concrete. They COULD be wrong, but at the moment it's what we have to go off of.
    Especially since their failsafe response to systemic corruption is to break the planet up into its base elements and start from scratch (like how they did before the Old Gods showed up).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    But confirming what?
    That the Old Gods can be killed? Or that without the Old Gods, Azeroth would be destroyed?
    Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
    Kaddrak yells: Correct.


    That killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth. That means the Titans had the capability to kill the Old Gods. They chose not to because they didn't want to start Azeroth from scratch again if they didn't have to.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    I think you mean invincible. They aren't invincible but they are immortal.
    Of course they're not invincible, you can SEE them!

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Especially since their failsafe response to systemic corruption is to break the planet up into its base elements and start from scratch (like how they did before the Old Gods showed up).

    - - - Updated - - -


    Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
    Kaddrak yells: Correct.


    That killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth. That means the Titans had the capability to kill the Old Gods. They chose not to because they didn't want to start Azeroth from scratch again if they didn't have to.
    I certainly agree that you can read it that way.
    But you can also read it as the response of a machine to a hypothetical situation.
    "If they killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would have been destroyed."

    Think of it this way.
    If you said to the machine "If a Stormwind guard killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would be destroyed."
    It's entirely possible it would still say "Correct".

    That doesn't mean that a Guard possess the capacity to do such a thing, just that if it did happen, the resulting consequence would be the destruction of the planet.

    The problem with this entire situation is that none of this is possible to confirm, and won't be until someone in Blizzard's story department arbitrarily decides one way or the other.

    But again, I have trouble taking the word of the Titan's (or their minions) considering Algalon's poor calculations of both his own superiority, and the fate of the planet. And considering that if you are correct, and the Old Gods can die, then we've already killed three of them (C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and now Y'shaarj) and absolutely nothing bad has happened to Azeroth as a result. I.e. The Titans have no idea what they're talking about.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Especially since their failsafe response to systemic corruption is to break the planet up into its base elements and start from scratch (like how they did before the Old Gods showed up).

    - - - Updated - - -


    Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
    Kaddrak yells: Correct.


    That killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth. That means the Titans had the capability to kill the Old Gods. They chose not to because they didn't want to start Azeroth from scratch again if they didn't have to.
    As we all know from Algalon's defeat speech, the Titan's can re-originate a planet faster than a single beat of our "mortal hearts"; though it's apparent that planetary devastation is a simple and a stunningly swift process, I don't think reshaping a world is such a quick feat. That would give aid to the idea that the Titan's didn't want to start from scratch because it wasn't only easier to imprison the reason for re-origination, but a lot faster then rebuilding sentient life.

    Apologies for using a real life comparison here, but I think the principles are relatable:

    In our world, we can destroy hundreds-of-thousands of people and ravage the very earth in literally seconds with certain technology.. However, the creation of life is a much more lengthy and complex process.. Whether it is a baby growing in the womb or something being artificially engineered in a laboratory, life isn't as simple as destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Day Dreamer View Post
    Old Gods have nothing to do with the legion. They would be enemies, anyway. Old Gods are more of an universal environmental hazard.
    Only half true actually.

    In War of the Ancients, Neltharion/Deathwing crafts the Dragon Soul by combining his own knowledge and skill with that of the Old Gods. It is later infused with the power of all the other Dragons, binding them to it, as well as demonic power from the Burning Legion. When the Old Gods realize that Deathwing is ill-suited to free them from their eternal prison, they plan to use the portal of the Burning Legion to release them.

    Archimonde eventually gets a hold of the Dragon Soul and uses it to open the portal for Sargeras, without either of them knowing that the Old Gods will also be set free if the portal becomes strong enough to transport Sargeras.

    Sargeras is currently trapped in the Void, but is still very much alive. He have sent avatars to Azeroth in an effort to control someone capable of summoning him. His avatar was later defeated by Aegwynn (Medivh's mother).

    To this day he still remains trapped in the Void, and the only force powerful enough to summon him back to Azeroth is also the only force that can release the Old Gods from their prison. While they may be enemies, they share the same immediate goal - freedom from their respective prison(s) and revenge on their captors. And as the common tongue says: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    As we all know from Algalon's defeat speech, the Titan's can re-originate a planet faster than a single beat of our "mortal hearts"; though it's apparent that planetary devastation is a simple and a stunningly swift process, I don't think reshaping a world is such a quick feat. That would give aid to the idea that the Titan's didn't want to start from scratch because it wasn't only easier to imprison the reason for re-origination, but a lot faster then rebuilding sentient life.

    Apologies for using a real life comparison here, but I think the principles are relatable:

    In our world, we can destroy hundreds-of-thousands of people and ravage the very earth in literally seconds with certain technology.. However, the creation of life is a much more lengthy and complex process.. Whether it is a baby growing in the womb or something being artificially engineered in a laboratory, life isn't as simple as destruction.
    But the Titans mass produce life from stone and iron using their forges.
    It's hard to compare humans, who don't even have a solid grasp of artificial/engineered life to a race that can completely destroy a planet in moments and have devices like the cradle in Uldum, which can create life in an instant.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    I certainly agree that you can read it that way.
    But you can also read it as the response of a machine to a hypothetical situation.
    "If they killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would have been destroyed."

    Think of it this way.
    If you said to the machine "If a Stormwind guard killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would be destroyed."
    It's entirely possible it would still say "Correct".

    That doesn't mean that a Guard possess the capacity to do such a thing, just that if it did happen, the resulting consequence would be the destruction of the planet.

    The problem with this entire situation is that none of this is possible to confirm, and won't be until someone in Blizzard's story department arbitrarily decides one way or the other.

    But again, I have trouble taking the word of the Titan's (or their minions) considering Algalon's poor calculations of both his own superiority, and the fate of the planet. And considering that if you are correct, and the Old Gods can die, then we've already killed three of them (C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and now Y'shaarj) and absolutely nothing bad has happened to Azeroth as a result. I.e. The Titans have no idea what they're talking about.
    And they actually killed an Old God...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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