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  1. #1

    Blizz Refusal to Buff Arms Single Target Under Questioning

    I want to try to conduct this thread is as civilized a manner as possible and refrain from the childish whining that is rampant in Arms QQ threads.


    As an Arms warrior in ilvl 518 gear atm (just came back to WoW 2 months ago after a 2 year break), I've indeed noticed the lack of arms representation in ToT. A quick run through of World of Logs and Noxxic dps rankings confirmed the fact that Arms is in fact the worst spec in the game at the moment, aside from Frost DK (single target).

    Time and time again, we've heard Blizzard explain how Arms was essentially impossible to balance around single target, as it would give Arms PvP too much single target burst, and thus make warriors overpowered in PvP. I understand that rationale completely, and agree with it as well to an extent, although a quick run through Arena Junkies' posts now has me thinking differently. According to Arena Junkies Rankings, there is not a single warrior represented until the 98th ranked team, with very little warrior representation after that as well: http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/

    After speaking with some high profile warriors on Tich and Nerzhul, who were quite reasonable with their discussions with me, it was indeed confirmed that Arms is in fact underpowered in PvP single target as well, making it an essentially useless spec.

    In 5.3, as you know, Arms is inferior to Fury is almost every way. Single target damage is inferior to Fury by about 5-6%, and aoe damage is much, much worse. At the moment, the only situation in which arms can really shine is 2 target boss fights such as Council, although they are still trampled by Demo locks and Mages. In other words, Arms has no niche so to speak, not even in PvP, as is pretty much sitting there and collecting dust.


    I applaud Blizzard's efforts to restore Arms' relevance by giving it some spectacular cleave capabilities in 5.4. Bladestorm has also been improved, although according to calculations in my previous thread, it remains about 14% behind fury. Single target damaged received a very modest buff, giving slam 10% more damage when the CS debuff is up. Seeing as slam isn't exactly high on our priority list at the moment, this is a 1-2% damage increase at best.


    I understand what Blizzard is trying to do: Give arms a niche in which it excels strongly, making it situationally viable, which is better than what it is currently. This is better than nothing, but truth be told is won't make much of a difference, and here's why:

    Since fury is still superior when it comes to AOE beyond 3 targets and single target damage, which let's face it are the majority of situations you encounter in a raid, Arms' can only be utilized maybe 1 or 2 encounters in SoO. It becomes pointless to gear the spec during progression, as the gear/gemming/reforging requirements are different between arms and fury, and as a result people will stick to fury and neglect arms once again.


    What's the solution to this debacle? Buff Arms Single Target

    It's still behind in PvP, it's going to be even more behind in PvE, and it needs a good 5-7% more damage in order to be competitive in both PvE and PvP. In the last set of Blue Posts, Blizzard talked about trying to buff arms without making the buff "boring". I'm pretty sure that I speak on behalf of all arms warriors that the spec is entertaining enough, and we would much rather have a spot in raid nights than a slightly more interesting rotation. Buff slam, give our deep wounds slightly more damage, buff mortal strike, I don't care. We're sick of being on the sidelines due to fallacious logic, and we'd like to see some fairness on your end in 5.4 when it comes to Single Target. Otherwise, we're out another patch.

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    Arms in PVP is fine pretty much, its being lifted up significantly in 5.4 too. It isn't a spec that can play with any class, just like the majority of classes, but theres still a lot of top tier comps with warriors in them. Also that link is a pile of shit, the first team is 3700 rated, did you even click it yourself? Then theres like 5 more russian wintraded teams.

    I don't know why you mentioned PVP, but since you did and showed you obviously have a huge lack of information on the matter i kinda discredits your post. Sure, its shit in PVE, i'll give you that, but don't bother bringing PVP into it. Just because X Y and Z are overpowered in PVP, doesn't mean arms should be too. You've got it the wrong way round. X Y and Z should be nerfed to arms' level.

    About pve, well, to be honest, i'm totally fine with it being terrible there. We have 1 pvp spec, 1 pve spec and 1 off pve spec. I don't blizzard shoving its pve dick into my arms spec and i don't want them shoving their pvp dick into my fury spec. Leave them the hell alone. Create 1 of each and make it perfect in those scenarios that its suited for. Stop trying to give everyone a slice of the same cake and hoping they all enjoy it. They failed with making tanks viable in PVP and then double failed with making every pve spec viable in pvp.

    If i had 1 sentence i could send to ghostcrawler and holink and gaurentee they saw it it would be this: knock it the fuck off and stop trying to make everything viable in every single aspect of the game. Whats next, make fury a multidot spec? Make arms a healing spec? Not everything has to be like Inspector Gadget, infact, nothing should.

    And not to shit all over your parade a second time but seriously, again, you're citing that link as your source of warriors being shit. The 7th team on there has a warrior 31-0 playing at 2600+ MMR (Source: i watch his bloody stream) Try filtering it to warriors and you'll get results more a kin to reality: 23 teams above 2500, 263 teams above 2200 with warriors in them. The post you linked is also scoring by rating. You realize that for example gladiator on Misery is much higher than on Vindication? You realize its impossible to get 2700 on many BGs purely because of the small amount of high rated teams queuing. You also have to take into consideration counter comps. X comp counters Y comp and X comp dominates BG1, so naturally BG1 will be filled with X comp and X comp's counters while BG2 will be filled with Y comp and Y comp's counters. I don't even know why i'm explaining this, i just feel like your post lacked substance so you threw in a link to try and give yourself some credibility

    You also didn't even list a suggestion based on fact, you used your arguments previously which are known to be wrong to conclude a solution. Again, arms damage in pvp is fine, buffing its damage will make it ridiculous in PVP and turn us into the slow walking juggernauts we were in 4.2. Damage is definately not the way to buff arms in PVP.

    This, by the way, is a dogshit source: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS 207k dps? Are you insane? Were the creators drunk when they made this? I'm no where near BIS and my simmed dps is over that. You can't even take it as an average of top 50 ranks on WOL either, as that would still be much higher. 'Realistic DPS rankings' ? Are you crazy? I do 130k dps without using half my spells. You're also not taking into account the fact that

    1. You're in low gear
    2. No one plays arms, so the logs displayed are by the hipster warriors who don't care for their raid

    You really, really outta rethink your reasoning for why arms should be buffed and also how it should be buffed. I do not want another fire mage spec, where you get rank 1 aoe, rank 1 cleave and rank 1 single target. WoW does not need superman specs.
    Last edited by Leeches; 2013-07-16 at 11:52 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Akoroth View Post
    Arms in PVP is fine pretty much, its being lifted up significantly in 5.4 too. It isn't a spec that can play with any class, just like the majority of classes, but theres still a lot of top tier comps with warriors in them. Also that link is a pile of shit, the first team is 3700 rated, did you even click it yourself? Then theres like 5 more russian wintraded teams.

    I don't know why you mentioned PVP, but since you did and showed you obviously have a huge lack of information on the matter i kinda discredits your post. Sure, its shit in PVE, i'll give you that, but don't bother bringing PVP into it. Just because X Y and Z are overpowered in PVP, doesn't mean arms should be too. You've got it the wrong way round. X Y and Z should be nerfed to arms' level.

    About pve, well, to be honest, i'm totally fine with it being terrible there. We have 1 pvp spec, 1 pve spec and 1 off pve spec. I don't blizzard shoving its pve dick into my arms spec and i don't want them shoving their pvp dick into my fury spec. Leave them the hell alone. Create 1 of each and make it perfect in those scenarios that its suited for. Stop trying to give everyone a slice of the same cake and hoping they all enjoy it. They failed with making tanks viable in PVP and then double failed with making every pve spec viable in pvp.

    If i had 1 sentence i could send to ghostcrawler and holink and gaurentee they saw it it would be this: knock it the fuck off and stop trying to make everything viable in every single aspect of the game. Whats next, make fury a multidot spec? Make arms a healing spec? Not everything has to be like Inspector Gadget, infact, nothing should.

    Edit: And not to shit all over your parade a second time but seriously, again, you're citing that link as your source of warriors being shit. The 7th team on there has a warrior 31-0 playing at 2600+ MMR (Source: i watch his bloody stream) Try filtering it to warriors and you'll get results more a kin to reality: 23 teams above 2500, 263 teams above 2200 with warriors in them. The post you linked is also scoring by rating. You realize that for example gladiator on Misery is much higher than on Vindication? You realize its impossible to get 2700 on many BGs purely because of the small amount of high rated teams queuing. You also have to take into consideration counter comps. X comp counters Y comp and X comp dominates BG1, so naturally BG1 will be filled with X comp and X comp's counters while BG2 will be filled with Y comp and Y comp's counters. I don't even know why i'm explaining this, i just feel like your post lacked substance so you threw in a link to try and give yourself some credibility

    Oh well
    The first line makes me laugh... What are you playing at? 1700 arena rating? Or maybe just random BGs from time to time? Arms is practically nonexistent above 2400 this season (2.6% representation http://arenamate.aws.af.cm/?region=%...400&ladder=3v3) and it hardly gets any better when you filter to 2200 (poor monks, even worse off...). Yes, there are a few anomalous wintrading RU teams on the AJ ladder, but for the most part, warriors are absolute garbage in arena and can be replaced easily by other classes. Even for RBGs (which I'm 2500 exp/HoTH in) we do mediocre damage and the only reason I can even get groups at high ratings is because of friends.

    Enough on the PvP rant though, I don't know a ton about arms in PvE as I play Prot for raids, but yes the parses don't lie, just look at worldoflogs or any DPS rankings and arms is straight up bottom of the dung heap...

    Edit: P.S. Go play on the PTR and tell me arms looks good for 5.4, some nice QoL improvements sure, but even excluding the LOLWTFDMG PvE trinkets, we're still pretty much in the shitter for arena.
    Last edited by hazer221; 2013-07-16 at 11:58 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hazer221 View Post
    The first line makes me laugh... What are you playing at? 1700 arena rating? Or maybe just random BGs from time to time? Arms is practically nonexistent above 2400 this season (2.6% representation http://arenamate.aws.af.cm/?region=%...400&ladder=3v3) and it hardly gets any better when you filter to 2200 (poor monks, even worse off...). Yes, there are a few anomalous wintrading RU teams on the AJ ladder, but for the most part, warriors are absolute garbage in arena and can be replaced easily by other classes. Even for RBGs (which I'm 2500 exp/HoTH in) we do mediocre damage and the only reason I can even get groups at high ratings is because of friends.
    So you reasoning for arms being shit is because you can't get into RBGs (where range will eternally be king and NO melee except a target calling DK will be allowed) and that another melee is better than us in a certain comp? Woah way to shatter my argument man. Once again theres a warrior who isn't content unless hes the KING of unhealable damage and endless CC. 2 shot? Fuck that, i won't stop posting until i can 1 shot someone. Have you actually tried 3s with a decent warrior comp? Aka WMP, WMD, KFC with priest, kitty cleave, WLD? You'll be happy to know half of those comps counter supposed uncounterable wizard cleaves.

    Heres a your tip of the day:

    "Just because i'm not overpowered, doesn't mean i should be"

    NERF OP stuff to decent level, not BUFF decent stuff to OP level. You're just going to cause an endless chain that way, sorry.

    1. Identify the problem
    2. Tell us why it is a problem
    3. Provide proof that its a problem and not just you sucking, or something like that
    4. Make suggestions

    Currently we have:

    1. Identify the problem
    2. Make the problem more apparent

    If warriors are only good at AoE, don't buff their. Likewise, if single target DMG is all we've got in PVP, don't bloody buff it. Buff our utility, defense, mobility or whatever is deemed to be the problem. You're thinking like 4.2. "Warriors are 1 shotting people, lets buff their damage and remove their mobility"

    NO
    Last edited by Leeches; 2013-07-17 at 12:16 AM.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord
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    I still see it the traditional way. Play Prot if you wanna tank. Play Fury if you wanna deal damage in Raids. play Arms if you are into PvP. I wouldn´t mind playing Arms if it would be as strong as to DS times, but since there is another avaiable Specc for Warriors, which is doing fine right now, I couldn´t care less about about Arms in PvE.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    I will continue to play Arms regardless of whether fury is better. Since I'm not in a heroic guild it's not as big of a deal, I can still pump out some semi competetive damage as arms, granted I have to push it alot harder than if I was playing my lock or mage, but it's fun, and that's what matters most to me, more times than I can count I have had people tell me I should go fury, yeah fury is better, but I just don't feel the same playing it, I've always been arms and I probably always will be.

    Would be nice to see some single target damage increase for sure, DS was fun times, but right now I'm just happy I'm not dead last in my raids and be content that I'm having fun and knowing I can't do any better with what I have.

    With that said, I thought I read that slam was getting a buff in 5.4?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    I still see it the traditional way. Play Prot if you wanna tank. Play Fury if you wanna deal damage in Raids. play Arms if you are into PvP. I wouldn´t mind playing Arms if it would be as strong as to DS times, but since there is another avaiable Specc for Warriors, which is doing fine right now, I couldn´t care less about about Arms in PvE.
    Agreed, and arms suffers from the same problems as fury, just its more apparent as it scales worse. The main problem being the fact that our damage is virtually zero the second we aren't within 5 yards of the boss or his adds. We are terrible on any fight with spread out adds for this reason (Durumu, Council, Tortos(if not killing bats)) and any fight where the boss is out of reach for a few seconds. Our biggest strengths are 1-2 gcd ramp up time (or none, depending on buffs) which results in burst single target and burst aoe. The problem here for both specs is that OP specs like fire also do this, while still being able to aoe spread adds and actually outdamage us significantly single target.

    Again, i don't see this as a case of US being underpowered, more of a case of THEM being overpowered. Its very easy to take a look at Sim DPS and Logs and see that mages and demo locks are completely destroying us as well as every other class (mostly) in every aspect of PVE DPS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post

    With that said, I thought I read that slam was getting a buff in 5.4?
    Indeed. And surprisingly it looks like it isn't a pvp buff at the same time (it is, but to a much lesser extent) which is very good as the last thing PVP needs right now is more damage, from any and all classes.

  8. #8
    Sorry but Blizzard will not nerf toolkits and remove spells - you simply won't see a that drastic redevelopment of multiple classes during an expansion. The only band-aid you can get is better damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akoroth View Post
    This, by the way, is a dogshit source: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS 207k dps? Are you insane? Were the creators drunk when they made this?
    While I essentially agree that this isn't a good source it should be very obvious to somebody as "good" as you that they didn't use fully upgraded gear for this sim - just as simulationcraft.org doesn't have fully upgraded gear sets on it.
    But to get back to the topic - I am aware that they likely didn't make the final numbers check of the 5.4 development cycle yet but I don't really expect too much anyways. From the way they are sneaking around with till now zero intends to really change something about the mechanics I find it somewhat unlikely for the spec to make a huge comeback.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    With that said, I thought I read that slam was getting a buff in 5.4?
    It deals 10% more damage if the cs debuff is on the target or something. I think it's fair to say that this is a quite minor buff and is probably more about clarifying the way they intended the rotation to be.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    somebody as "good" as you
    Thanks for the compliment. Although speech marks imply that myself or someone else said it, which they did not. So lets keep my skill level out of it? It takes no skill to realize that a 40k dps gap from

    This
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS
    To this
    http://www.wowprogress.com/simdps/class.warrior

    Is pretty strange. Also it is fully upgraded gear, that's why it is labelled as BiS, which stands for 'best in slot'. Whether we disregard the website based on incorrect BiS lists, bad tests or failing to update the BiS list is up to you guys, either way my point was that its a shit source to cite, that's all.

  10. #10
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    I still see it the traditional way. Play Prot if you wanna tank. Play Fury if you wanna deal damage in Raids. play Arms if you are into PvP. I wouldn´t mind playing Arms if it would be as strong as to DS times, but since there is another avaiable Specc for Warriors, which is doing fine right now, I couldn´t care less about about Arms in PvE.
    This works unless you're into a more finesse play style. Fury is about bashing the shiny buttons. Arms is dot and debuff management while weaving in abilities. Blizzard should make all play styles viable imo. It's not about being a special snowflake, it's about availability.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
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  11. #11
    The problem is that arms damage scales mostly with the weapon. Meaning that if you buff it to the level of the other classes/specs, it's going to hit pretty hard in pvp. If they could buff other sources of damage, like deep wounds or just change the mastery, it would be viable.

    I remember reading something like this: "we can't nerf frost mages, they seem OP at low mmr but they are mid-pack at higher ratings. Yet they nerfed arms to the ground.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    This works unless you're into a more finesse play style. Fury is about bashing the shiny buttons. Arms is dot and debuff management while weaving in abilities. Blizzard should make all play styles viable imo. It's not about being a special snowflake, it's about availability.
    That sounds like you never tried to play fury. The only thing shining while playing fury are wild strikes. In fact, Arms has more shiny buttons than fury does, namely Colossus Smash and Overpower. The Arms rotation is described by many players as boring and repetative, whereas Fury rotation has a high RNG factor due to Raging blow proccs. Furthermore it needs precise planning of the CS window and ragepooling.
    So even if "about bashing shiny buttons" was an exaggerated phrase, you clearly should try to play Fury on a high level.

    Do not get me wrong, I am not bashing Arms or the skill it takes to play it good. But stating, that Arms is more complex to play then Fury is narrow-minded.


    Also, people tend to throw around that "special snowflake" catchphrase far too often. It´s a last resort argument, if it is one at all. Hence, Blizzard should not make all playstyles viable. Blizzard should fit speccs into niches they shine at. For Arms that may be PvP or cleave heavy PvE encounters.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  13. #13
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    That sounds like you never tried to play fury. The only thing shining while playing fury are wild strikes. In fact, Arms has more shiny buttons than fury does, namely Colossus Smash and Overpower. The Arms rotation is described by many players as boring and repetative, whereas Fury rotation has a high RNG factor due to Raging blow proccs. Furthermore it needs precise planning of the CS window and ragepooling.
    So even if "about bashing shiny buttons" was an exaggerated phrase, you clearly should try to play Fury on a high level.

    Do not get me wrong, I am not bashing Arms or the skill it takes to play it good. But stating, that Arms is more complex to play then Fury is narrow-minded.


    Also, people tend to throw around that "special snowflake" catchphrase far too often. It´s a last resort argument, if it is one at all. Hence, Blizzard should not make all playstyles viable. Blizzard should fit speccs into niches they shine at. For Arms that may be PvP or cleave heavy PvE encounters.
    That's stupid, All specs should be viable in PVP and PVE. That's just silly, why make the spec if it can't be used in only one thing. It's horrible and people liked to say the same about Frost for mages. and that changed. Good thing it changed.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    That sounds like you never tried to play fury. The only thing shining while playing fury are wild strikes. In fact, Arms has more shiny buttons than fury does, namely Colossus Smash and Overpower. The Arms rotation is described by many players as boring and repetative, whereas Fury rotation has a high RNG factor due to Raging blow proccs. Furthermore it needs precise planning of the CS window and ragepooling.
    So even if "about bashing shiny buttons" was an exaggerated phrase, you clearly should try to play Fury on a high level.
    To be fair the better your gear gets the more it actually is about mashing shiny buttons. I am already very close to paying no attention at all for rb charges - next tier I am quite certain that I won't have to pay attention at all. Not that I feel though that arms has a whole different appeal in regards to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    That's stupid, All specs should be viable in PVP and PVE.
    Well some people are realistic. Personally I'd prefer having very good balanced pvp over having as many as possible specs in pvp but tastes are different of course.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-07-17 at 01:32 AM.

  15. #15
    Their is several things that is wrong for Arms at this moment, and it's frustrating that we're forced into playing Fury if we want to be able to hold our ground against other equally skilled and geared players. It's such an amazingly fun and engaging spec, but its raw power falls flat.

    The issue with Arms as I see it is fourfold.

    #1. The single target numbers are too low.
    #2. We gain too little from acquired gear.
    #3. Our Cleave, which long has been our ace, is lackluster.
    #4. Sub 20% our numbers are far too inflated, and in turn, is very laughable above said percent.

    Issue number 1 is quite easy to fix, one need only to inflate the numbers. The issues tho is that with a simple buff to our main attacks, we might risk getting too strong in PvP, and that would lead to us again being lowered back down. The buff would have to be aimed at something that is more noticeable in PvE. Regarding what we can buff, I can only think of one thing, Deep Wounds. Buffing it would lead to higher damage in single target combat, as well as in AoE situations. The buff would not need to be big, if they where to solve issue #2, our scaling.

    There are several things they could do to change our issues for the long run, but most of it would require changing the foundations, such as making haste more valuable, and increasing the value of crit, by making Overpower not capping it. Our mastery would preferable be change all out, making it either more interesting, or make it interact with our other stats in a better way.

    Short term, there are a few things they can do. By once again buffing Deep Wounds, our gains from strength would increase by a small bit, but the gains would be very minor. They could increase the value of Crit, by buffing Enrage for Arms, making it a bigger buff when it procs. It would be good if we could "feel enraged" when we crit with Mortal Strike or Colossus Smash. The buff would be quite marginal in PvP, due to the lower gear level they play at, it would be a slight buff to our burst, but it's quite unreliable, outside of Berserker Rage, so hopefully it wouldn't be too big.

    For Mastery and Haste I don't have anything special in mind, beside the most simple fix, Inflating the values. They could simply increase the benefits we gain from said stats. It would not be a good fix, nor a fun one, but it would increase our numbers, which at the end of the day is our goal.

    By increasing the damage we gain from gear, and buffing Deep Wounds, we would gain a bit of a buff to AoE as well as our single target, but our niche has long been our two target cleave. Sweeping Strikes has long been a very fun little thing we've had, but in it's current form, it's quite annoying to deal with.

    Blizzards decision to add a rage cost to Sweeping Strikes is understandable, it's was quite frankly overpowered, but currently it feels as if it is too punishing to use it. It's undeniable that we gain quite some damage by using Sweeping Strikes when we use it to it's full potential, but the gain is quite frankly too small. At this point in time, Fury is doing not quite as much cleave as Arms is, but the difference between them is quite neglect able.

    The way I see it, Sweeping Strikes must have a cost, we must have to think about when we use it, it shouldn't be something we click and forget about, but the gains of using it correctly should be just as rewarding, as the cost of using it at a bad time.

    The way it worked during The Cataclysm was a nice system. It had no cost, but it had a small cooldown. With a 30 seconds Cooldown, you would feel the sting, if you used it unwisely, but the cooldown was short enough for it to not be devastating. The duration of 10 seconds meant that we needed to unload as much as we could while the buff lasted, and if done correctly, we would reap the benefits.

    The last issue I listed is one that is related to our class, rather then what spec we chose to play as. We've always relayed at Execute to make us shine. The fixes to the issue (If you see it as one) are easy, simply lessening the damage we do sub 20%, and buffing the rest of our damage to compensate. This is a subject that has been discussed at length before, and there is no need to bring it up here as well. This is something that Blizzard is already aware of.

    Arms is a spec that many of us love, in both the PvE and PvP spectrum. There are ways in which they can improve it for all of us. There are ways to fix the issues in PvE, without making us too powerful in PvP.

    The things I have listed above are but what I have been thinking off, there are most likely other ways they can handle it, and other areas which I didn't consider. My only wish is that Arms will, once again, be a valid choice for one who wish to maximize his performance.
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  16. #16
    Seeing as slam isn't exactly high on our priority list at the moment
    your playing it wrong then should have a 1:1 ratio with slam/ms until you get to execute phase...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    That's stupid, All specs should be viable in PVP and PVE. That's just silly, why make the spec if it can't be used in only one thing. It's horrible and people liked to say the same about Frost for mages. and that changed. Good thing it changed.
    Oh okay, if it´s stupid I totally get your point /sarcasm

    Aside from that, I want my protspecc to be viable in PvP as well then. Shouldn´t be a problem to balance 34 speccs in PvP and PvE. At the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    #2. We gain too little from acquired gear.
    I just want to highlight this one in particular. In a pvp setting, haste is next to useless. Mastery really isn't any better, its among if not the worst mastery in the game. Mastery procs for 3k on people? Crazy damage man...

    Crit is the only stat we even want so we scale terribly.

    My suggestion for stat scaling would be to buff mastery to 80% weapon damage and to make haste make deep wounds tick faster (correct me if it already does but I'm under the impression it doesn't).

  19. #19
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    To be fair the better your gear gets the more it actually is about mashing shiny buttons. I am already very close to paying no attention at all for rb charges - next tier I am quite certain that I won't have to pay attention at all. Not that I feel though that arms has a whole different appeal in regards to that.
    This is more what I was referring to... Yes OP and Collosus smash light up, but to roughly quote GC "We want Arms to feel like a disciplined soldier, and we want Fury to feel more like a wild Barbarian". Arms may be more repetitive and rigid, but it's supposed to feel like that. That's the appeal of it to me.

    People that want certain specs to only have a niche like AoE, PvP, and PvE only are out in left field imo. It's possible to balance PvP and PvE around so many specs, It's just much more difficult to do so. GC has said that that is part of the appeal of his job though.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  20. #20
    Disagree. Buffing Arms PVE DPS would cause scaling issues with heroic thunderforged gear. PVP gear scaling of arms is irrelevant after 5.3, due to the fact all specs are balanced around 496 ilvl. Therefore no buffs are really needed or would ever be provided for low ilvls in PvE. Keep working, you just need to be, eh, above 435 or so ilvl to compete. Upper echelon Arms > Fury on a majority of PvE fights atm (believe it of not). Aside from that, Noxxic rankings are widely controversial of not grossly inaccurate in terms of actual performance. Were it not for huge vengeance stacking or huge combustion ticks the most competitive spec to rank with right now is actually Elemental Shamans, which have a very tight delta and very high lower rank bracket on WoL. Compare that to Arms-- even at 518 if you know how to play Arms correctly you should be ranking. If you're not, gear up and practice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wanted to leave this with you... It's my guild leader's wow-heroes Warr profile, with links to all rankings of which on many fights he has managed to rank well on current ToT normal / heroic fights. http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/Stormrage/R%C3%BCberduckie/ Many of these rankings are above the damage of #1 ranked Fury warriors.

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