Blizz Refusal to Buff Arms Single Target Under Questioning

[Gandrake]

The crux of the problem is Blizzards refusal to separate PvE damage from PvP damage.

Well it certainly doesn't help that our damage is balanced around spamming Execute on Dragons.

[Dawnrage]

I'll try to do a 13/13 Heroic clear next week as Arms, and I'll post the numbers, I'll most likely be quite low, but don't think I'll be dead last.

Would love to see this, though I hope you don't pad more than necessary to prove a point.

[Warriorsarri]

I'll be doing what I'm usually doing as Fury, shouldn't be too much padding.

[Slaynorth]

I'll try to do a 13/13 Heroic clear next week as Arms, and I'll post the numbers, I'll most likely be quite low, but don't think I'll be dead last.

I've been playing Arms on trivial fights on 10H for two months or so, just because I like Arms. I still play Fury on Lei Shen/Ra-Den and Dark Animus (since we changed to the burn strat DPS making my DA DPS matter a little bit, I did play Arms on DA after our first kill until we switched to the burn strat). It doesn't matter in the slightest, but I've had most of the number 1s on 10H (not hard when there are only 20 people playing it, just saying that I feel I played Arms competently), and the numbers produced initially were actually surprisingly decent - the DPS I pulled to get a top rank as Arms would typically be in the 20-50th rank range for Fury. I'd often finish 2nd or 3rd in my raid as Arms, and even occasionally first (that may have something to do with other factors and less to do with the actually viability of Arms tho).

Unfortunately, over the past six weeks the gap between what Fury can do and what Arms can do seems to really have widened, leaving Arms behind. The only fight where I can easily approach the numbers I can do as Fury is Council (I've had many top 10 ranks on most fights as Fury, so I feel I can decently judge how the two specs compare in 10H). For everything else I'm lucky if I can get within 10-15% of my Fury DPS. I don't typically place last on most fights as Arms in the raid DPS, but it's more like third or fourth on most fights these days. The scaling issue, combined with extra gear and upgrades has really pushed Arms down.

[Hand Banana]

The crux of the problem is Blizzards refusal to separate PvE damage from PvP damage. You can't buff Arms for PvE without the PvP side of the house throwing a fit.

Ever since CS got changed to do 50% against players back in cata bliz has had no problem keeping a separation between pve and pvp damage with warriors (unlike many others who need it). The other thing is that the pvp side of the house is the ones actually throwing a fit because our pvp damage is so low. Straight buffing damage in pve would make warriors more balanced in pvp, our burst cds are among the worst so thats not even a big issue.

There is literally no argument possible for not buffing arms damage or mastery/haste scaling. None.

[Zooch]

For all of those posting "good" numbers for Arms, you're missing two key points:

1. It doesn't matter how well you're doing compared to your guild. Your guild could be garbage for all we know. 240k on Horridon and that's RANKED TOP 5? That's hilarious. Enhance shammy's could pull that at 490 ilvl.

2. It's about comparing Arms to other specs. Relative to other specs, we are crap. That is not an opinion. It is an objective, wholesome, evidence based fact. The only reason we are able to remotely keep up on certain fights is due to a little bit of cleave. SoO doesn't have NEARLY the amount of cleaving potential as ToT does, so that isn't going to be as great of a crutch as it has been. Also, please show us your Ji-Kun and Jinrokh logs. I'd love to see how well you do comparatively to other specs on single target fights like that.

The point is this: Why are we a "situational" spec, when almost every other class and spec are not? Why do mages have 3 of the top damage dealing specs in the game? Why is it ok to pigeon hole us into only one PvE spec? It isn't. I'm calling it now, we will be minimum 15% behind fury next patch until we get a legitimate single target damage buff, with the likelihood of seeing that disparity reach 20-25%.

[Deleted]

I'm calling it now, we will be minimum 15% behind fury next patch until we get a legitimate single target damage buff, with the likelihood of seeing that disparity reach 20-25%.

I would say that arms is already 15% behind fury in most fights this tier, besides Iron Qon, Council and Dark Animus (or fights when we could "cheese" by SSing a head that would be healed to full or aplying DW to 50 bats being kited).

That wouldn't be so bad if fury was dominating in pve, but being 10-15% behind fury means being so far behind warlocks, mages or even rogues that an arms warrior spends far more time scrolling down the recount window than fighting dragons.

[Mefistophelis]

First of all stop reading noxxic . Simcraft has already shown that arms t15h bis is at the bottom of the dps list . Right above it is frost dw and something else i don't quite remember ...

Problem is if they go ahead and start buffing Single Target damage, let's say 20% damage to mortal strike 35% damage to overpower and 15% damage to slam, everyone in pvp is gonna cry black tears ... and fotm re-rollers will all play disco-arms-caster and stop dem noobs ...

See my point here?

[Sliske]

You're right, arms is crap, lets not nerf it, nobody nerf arms. Arms is fine. Look the other way please. Yes, look the other way. Arms is totally fine *whistle* yep, nothing to see here.

[Nathreim]

Dps specs should not be regulated to either PVP or PVE.

[Deleted]

Bladestorm ticks for 90k crit on PTR.

[Flaks]

Problem is if they go ahead and start buffing Single Target damage, let's say 20% damage to mortal strike 35% damage to overpower and 15% damage to slam, everyone in pvp is gonna cry black tears ... and fotm re-rollers will all play disco-arms-caster and stop dem noobs ...

See my point here?

Stop it with this...please. Warrior single target damage is bad in PvE AND PvP. Frost mages can tank us while dishing out more damage than us without even using a frost nova or deep freeze. Even ret's sustained is far superior to ours let alone their burst which just flat out doubles the damage we can do with our swifty macro.

We need a damage buff for both PvE and PvP. No ifs ands or buts. Anyone bitching about it if it ever happens should just go verse any other melee instead and realize that we're finally up to par ONLY IN DAMAGE to them because next patch we'll also be by far the worst off in sticking to our targets as well (we're contending for that spot with rogues atm).

- - - Updated - - -

Bladestorm ticks for 90k crit on PTR.

Ice lance without FoF/novas HITS for 90k on PTR. PTR numbers are ridiculously out of whack and should NOT be mentioned as a "we're fine" kind of deal. And bladestorm actually crits for no more than 60k a tick with all CDs popped on a PvP target.

[Sliske]

Ice lance without FoF/novas HITS for 90k on PTR. PTR numbers are ridiculously out of whack and should NOT be mentioned as a "we're fine" kind of deal. And bladestorm actually crits for no more than 60k a tick with all CDs popped on a PvP target.

You're wrong. Dead wrong.

[Eranthe]

You're wrong. Dead wrong.

these kinds of posts that say x hits for y are totally useless, whether or not they're right or wrong. the circumstances mean all the difference, and even then, just because bladestorm is good or bad is totally irrelevant to arms single target dps.

execute hits for 2.1 million. nerf pls.



(forgot to mention this was with all buffs/debuffs on wind lord mej'arak in tier 14)

[Hand Banana]

Bladestorm ticks for 90k crit on PTR.

New bladestorm is 180% weapon damage, nearly identical but probably slightly less than an MS. To get an MS to crit for 90k I need a cloth target with no passive DR with reck/banner/avatar and at least 1 proc trinket up (and actually crit, new reck is so annoying). So in the most ideal of ideal worlds, yea it might hit for that. Normal targets? Probably like 50-60k crits with all your 3 minute cds up (taking avatar also renders you with no stuns, meaning if you don't gib them in that bladestorm you are basically screwed).

[Beefkow]

Lore recently responded to the thread "Constructive Warrior PVP Feedback Thread pt.2"

The one part that mostly caught my attention was:

We do hear the damage concerns. We're not at the point in development yet where we're ready to start tweaking numbers, but we are listening. We'll discuss the burst vs sustain issue.

I see arms warriors will be receiving buffs in the future ^.^ and blizzard is actually LISTENING!!

This is the response from Lore http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ck-thread-pt2/

[Sliske]

these kinds of posts that say x hits for y are totally useless, whether or not they're right or wrong. the circumstances mean all the difference, and even then, just because bladestorm is good or bad is totally irrelevant to arms single target dps.

execute hits for 2.1 million. nerf pls.



(forgot to mention this was with all buffs/debuffs on wind lord mej'arak in tier 14)

If you bothered to read you'd see it was in context of PVP.

[Darkfriend]

If you bothered to read you'd see it was in context of PVP.

Which is meaningless. What procs? What buffs/debuffs? How much PVP power. How much PVP resilience. What weapons.

[Baracuda]

My suggestions:
Give arms warriors incite from Cataclysm: Increases the critical strike chance of your Heroic Strike by 15%, and gives your Heroic Strike criticals a 100% chance to cause the next Heroic Strike to also be a critical strike. These guaranteed criticals cannot re-trigger the Incite effect.

Also reduce Overpowers rage cost to 5 and make it hit for 100% weapon damage. Change Taste for Blood so that Mortal Strike only generates 1 overpower charge, stacking up to 3 times, and make each overpower reduce Mortal Strike's CD by 2 seconds.

Maybe reduce the GCD of Slam... Thoughts?

[Hand Banana]

My suggestions:
Give arms warriors incite from Cataclysm: Increases the critical strike chance of your Heroic Strike by 15%, and gives your Heroic Strike criticals a 100% chance to cause the next Heroic Strike to also be a critical strike. These guaranteed criticals cannot re-trigger the Incite effect.

Also reduce Overpowers rage cost to 5 and make it hit for 100% weapon damage. Change Taste for Blood so that Mortal Strike only generates 1 overpower charge, stacking up to 3 times, and make each overpower reduce Mortal Strike's CD by 2 seconds.

Thoughts?

Hmmm, this tunnels us into more rage using abilities like slam and HS which is a kind of bad thing for pvp since we get trained and sit in D stance most of the time. OP definitely needs its rage cost reduced though.

They need to balance arms from the stats to be honest, make haste and mastery do something better than they do now. Every time gear gets better we get worse. Ive already said buff mastery to 80% and make deep wounds ticks affected by haste.