LFR, Auto Kick Healers who Respec to Dps?

[Moshots]

I agree with kicking Healers who do this, because it is a huge pain in the ass (as a Healer) to think you've got 4 other healers helping you out, but it turns out 1 of them is AFK, the other just sucks so bad, another has gone DPS and the final one died in about 4 seconds into the fight.

or you could have 6 healers with 4 of them alt tabbing and hitting tranq off cd. Thats how I heal LFR on my druid because peoples hp don't go below 90% on most fights. Now if blizz wants to make every fight like Meagara LFR week 1-2 where 50k+ hps was required out of all 6 healers Then you can complain and this needs to be adressed. But as long as LFR is tard mode and has a 70-100k hps out of 6 healers when 1 normal mode geared raider can heal that. then it really isn't a issue.

[Deleted]

Are you related to my wife? She also thinks (wrongly) that she can read my mind. In actuality, you have no idea of how many of the posts I've read in this thread. Please don't presume to think you do, based on the content of my post. I think you either didn't read my post carefully enough, or else are making some assumptions that aren't true. (i.e., the "good posters" who offer solutions aren't the one's I was addressing)



If you re-read my post, you'll see that I'm questioning whether this is really a problem. i.e., how often are people actually wiping, due to too many healers going dps? I personally have yet, to see it. Even so, I'm saying "okay, let's assume this is happening with regularity - then what?" An auto-kick isn't the answer, and "the problem," in that case isn't dual-spec, nor the lack of an auto-kick mechanism; it would be the LFR queueing system, in and of itself, creating both the opportunity and motive for dps hybrids to queue as heals.

Perhaps you might want to go back and re-read through the thread, because many of the posters are maligning the hybrid players on a moral basis, instead of recognizing that those hybrid players are simply playing the game, as it's designed. One guy even intimated that he'd give players a swift kick in the ass. My response to that type of venom is disdain, disgust, and dismissal. I have zero respect for that tripe.



And why would you assume that the 4 healers are collectively the Forrest Gumps of raiding? "MAMA SAID THESE WUH MY RAIDING BOOTS - THEY'D TAKE ME ENNYWHEAH!" Really, you're creating a premise, at the far-end extreme of derpness, just to make an argument in support of your position. That's straw-man arguing.

You're right, in that my off-the-cuff solution suggestion is, indeed, based upon the premise that 515 ilvl . But, just how many 515-geared folks are unenchanted, ungemmed, and not reforged? Because, with the lack of objective data, I have to draw on my own experience, where even being on a backwater server, with a very small talent pool, I don't see 515-geared folks walking around without gems, enchants, and being reforged.

Regardless, and to your point, I could just as easily make the argument that all six of the ilvl 480 (490?) healer-specced healers can come into the LFR, and all be the picture of derp that you painted. You aren't providing evidence that a system like the one I proposed wouldn't be better than the queueing system we have now.



I addressed this point, above, but would like to reiterate that I respect you coming to their defense, as a protective mama bear, despite getting your fur ruffled unnecessarily. If I offered some honey jars, or marmalade sandwiches, as recompense, could we just bear hug it out?

P.S. Love your sig artwork.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, you're a shaman. Beyond just being kicked, you should be put in the stocks, pelted with rotten vegetables, and then tarred and feathered. Then made to watch every episode ever of Oprah, back-to-back.

Maybe then you'll learn your role.

In all seriousness, the LFR queueing system is the issue. It's needlessly slow, because there isn't a built-in "skill-check" mechanism, which could speed the process up, thus negating the motivation for people to (ab)use it.

I cbf replying to everything in your wall of text but if you think random insults is the way to win your argument, you're quite wrong.

What I'd like to highlight, is the part about ilvl=skill. My point was quite clearly, that ilvl is NOT equal skill. And even if those 515+ healers were gemmed and enchanted, that still doesn't mean they know jack shit about playing their class, nor does it guarantee you that they don't die to the first pool of shit on the ground.

So really, just drop the BS. This isn't about me or anyone else defending anyone. Do you honestly think I give a shit about LFR, when I clear 13/13 Heroic every week? I can tell you that I don't. So there's no need for your personal insults kkthx.

[Deadraline]

They could just make it to where when you que, you get stuck in that spec that you que as. Like when you hit the que button, whatever spec you are in when you hit que is the spec that you have to be in when you hit "accept" to join the raid when the que pops (you can change out of the spec so you can do dailys while waiting for que to pop, but when it goes make it read what spec you que'd as and it has to verify the spec before it lets you in). Then, when in LFR make the ability to change specs greyed out--so people can't change specs while running LFR.

I know technology exists to do this because I have played beta for Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn and they have a very similar system to where you play as the class/spec you que in as and can't just up and change it when doing the dungeon. So this to me sounds like a GOOD thing that WoW could use for the future to make it so people don't get stuck solo-healing on fights.

I get that sure, you can just as easily not heal through it, but at the same time why should you waste your time having to force a wipe vs. people just playing as what they que as? I enjoy healing myself, but it totally sucks when the other healers switch to dps and you get blamed for the wipe or for certain people dying...yea it is just LFR, but it does get annoying feeling like you are carrying everyone else there because they can't step up to help do the job they signed up for.

LFR would actually run more smoothly if more people stuck to the role they signed up for (and didn't just go on auto-attack on a boss fight or switch from heals to dps or whatever the case may be). And for those who keep saying what's the big deal...imagine if it wasn't a skilled healer in the group, and imagine it was your group that continued to wipe because granted yea, you can kick the healers that switched to dps, but since this issue seems to be a growing one you might just keep getting stuck with bad healers who are trying and the other healers are switching to dps and aren't doing what they que for, thus wasting a lot of peoples time with needless wipes. I am just saying we have ALL had groups where the tanks didn't do the fight right, the healers were dps'ing instead of healing, and the dps didn't do the mechanics right (like switching to adds and causing a wipe). We all know the frustration of being the only healer healing the group, or maybe the only tank taunting the adds or boss at the right time, or the only dps trying to kill adds so we don't wipe. And we all know how it feels because we've all been in fail groups that just can't get it together and do the job they que up as.

An auto-kick would be nice, but sadly you will just keep getting the same type of people in your group. Blizz needs to fix the actual issue and prevent people from switching out of their role--it won't fix the baddies, but it would be a step in the right direction to teach people that just because they can que in as a healer for a fast que and then dps because they might be too afraid to heal that they need to start learning to play the role they want because it's not fair to put the extra stress on other players. Players who may actually want to get through LFR without wiping 10 times on an easy fight, or at least get through it without having to deal with the extra work to ensure they don't wipe because other people can't do what they need to do.

[Deleted]

I cbf replying to everything in your wall of text but if you think random insults is the way to win your argument, you're quite wrong.

What I'd like to highlight, is the part about ilvl=skill. My point was quite clearly, that ilvl is NOT equal skill. And even if those 515+ healers were gemmed and enchanted, that still doesn't mean they know jack shit about playing their class, nor does it guarantee you that they don't die to the first pool of shit on the ground.

So really, just drop the BS. This isn't about me or anyone else defending anyone. Do you honestly think I give a shit about LFR, when I clear 13/13 Heroic every week? I can tell you that I don't. So there's no need for your personal insults kkthx.

elitist nerdrage, bless X

[Deleted]

elitist nerdrage, bless X

Did you have a point, or is this your contribution to the thread?

[Deleted]

I could add that you are the most un feminine sounding girl on the internet but I think we all know you are a man ? prefer that ?

Infracted; Post constructively (Sonnillon)

[Deleted]

we all know you are a man

Of course he is a man, there would be no way for him to kill any hc bosses if he wasn't one, that much is clear.

Infracted; Post constructively (Sonnillon).

[Lochton]

Literally just solo healed Durumu in LFR because all the healers respecced during the ready check. I said afterwards about it and everyones attitude was just "they do good dps and we got the boss down, who cares?" I care, I shouldn't be busting my ass in lfr to keep people healed up. LFR is meant to be casual faceroll. I could easily have caused a full on wipe and there attitude would be entirely different. It sickens me people do this and that they get away with it. Would you like an auto kick feature?

I wouldn't mind. But then there should be an auto-kick for DPS being in tanking, for Tanks being DPS, for Healers being DPS (as OP said), for DPS being healers, for healers being tanks.. Kindda a vicious circle.

Really, the solution would be either, a forced spec change mechanic so you are the spec you signed for when you enter - and if you don't have that spec, you can't answer. Or having a talent lock upon entering, making the player unable to change specc upon entering the looking for raid.

[Deleted]

I could add that you are the most un feminine sounding girl on the internet but I think we all know you are a man ? prefer that ?

I'm actually a ladyboy but please don't tell......

Back to the topic: To make it clear, I love getting LFR done as fast as freaking possible and I assume that everyone else would prefer the same. The problem is, that you're just one out of 25 people and making the decision of going dps when queued as a healer and not communicating this out, won't always end well.

But from most of the posts it looks like the general attitude towards this, is that the fault partly lies with Blizz, for allowing players with no intention of healing to queue as healer. And that the rest of the blame lies with the people who do this, without checking with the rest of the group first.

The part about communicating should be fairly simple. The part about Blizz's queue policy is more complex. Cause as many people have already said, wanting to change from one dps spec to another, changing from dps to tank to avoid waiting for that 1 person etc., does indeed sucks.

I wouldn't be surprised, if we'll see some sort of fix to the queue system though.

[Shahad]

A forced talent lock would be a crappy way to deal with this. Zoned in as DPS because you were doing dailies when the queue popped? Shit out of luck, you're DPSing. Tank left and can't find a new one? Well that tanking spec you keep as a just in case thing won't do you much good either. There's a Heroic geared Disc priest in the group and literally is nothing left to heal? Hope you like twiddling your thumbs!

[Killilth]

Blizz should make your spec auto change to whatever you que'd as and then disable the ability to change inside LFR.

As much as I'd like this the problem with that would be classes that change specs or the whole design around changing talents to suit the current fight.

[TyrantWave]

Then just make it lock you to your role, not spec.

[Embermoon]

I cbf replying to everything in your wall of text but if you think random insults is the way to win your argument, you're quite wrong.

What random insults are you even talking about?

What I'd like to highlight, is the part about ilvl=skill. My point was quite clearly, that ilvl is NOT equal skill. And even if those 515+ healers were gemmed and enchanted, that still doesn't mean they know jack shit about playing their class, nor does it guarantee you that they don't die to the first pool of shit on the ground.

What you did was make an argument, based on the illogical and highly-improbable assumption, that an entire compliment of healers in an LFR would be ungemmed, unenchanted, not reforged, as well as completely not knowing their class, despite having reached a 515 ilvl. That's a straw-man argument. You can't make an argument based on created or imagined premises. You also went on to showcase your age discrimination against 12 year olds.

Regardless, if you hold the position that ilvl does not equal skill, then why are you arguing against an LFR queueing system that would be partly based on it? If you assume that such a method would invariably result in all of the healers being the worst healers imaginable, then why would you assume that the current system would be any better?

So really, just drop the BS. This isn't about me or anyone else defending anyone. Do you honestly think I give a shit about LFR, when I clear 13/13 Heroic every week? I can tell you that I don't. So there's no need for your personal insults kkthx.

How in the world, did I insult you? You started in on me, with a flame specifically directed at me. I responded nicely, and logically rebutted your points of argument. Is this just the game, where you accuse me of the things that you're doing? If you really believe that I somehow insulted you, I'm asking you to point it out, specifically.

Also, if you don't care about LFR, then why are you so invested in this thread?

[moremana]

Blizz should make your spec auto change to whatever you que'd as and then disable the ability to change inside LFR.

This solves the whole problem.

If you cue as a healer, no matter what spec you are, it automatically put you in heal spec when you zone in

[Embermoon]

This solves the whole problem.

If you cue as a healer, no matter what spec you are, it automatically put you in heal spec when you zone in

I understand the thinking behind this, but what would you say about the problem(s) this would create?

For example: We're all in an LFR. One of the tanks leaves or gets kicked. Then we're all standing around, waiting for a new tank, because the mechanics still require two tanks.

One of the healers is a holy pally, with a prot offspec, or a resto druid, with a bear offspec. They offer to switch to tank, but they can't, because the system locks them as heals. I've been in LFRs, where we had to wait a ridiculous amount of time, for a tank to pop in. I recall one that I bailed on, after 25 minutes of waiting on a tank.

Or, would you simply suggest that a restriction be placed only on healers switching to dps roles?

[Deleted]

For example: We're all in an LFR. One of the tanks leaves or gets kicked. Then we're all standing around, waiting for a new tank, because the mechanics still require two tanks

No boss in LFR requires two tanks. Every LFR is a debate between the tanks who is going to go dps or go AFK for boss fights.

Still, I agree with you, locking people to specs would be retarded. There is a reason you can change specs.

[SomeGuyVT]

I wouldn't be surprised, if we'll see some sort of fix to the queue system though.

Allowing for you to select your spec for loot drops in LFR was the change to the system which is aimed at discouraging people from playing their unintended spec while in a raid.

That's probably all we'll see. The only other thing I can think of would be a more clear depiction of a character's spec'd role while in the raid. The default raid panel would have to give a bigger visual cue or to show a role imbalance. There may even be a raid-warning style message to all players when a player leaves/goes offline/changes role.

Here's the thing... there will not be any auto-kick mechanics. That's far too discriminatory. Just because a casual bunch of Monday raiders have a hard time with Joe the shadow healer doesn't mean all of LFR should have to suffer. There are plenty of people who queue as groups and intentionally skimp a tank or a couple healers just to make the raid run faster. There are also plenty of hybrid players who do their fair share of both damage and healing simultaneously who are performing the role of two characters at once. Punish them? Definitely not.

As previously stated: Use the vote-to-kick option if you see a player abusing the system and they're not pulling their weight. Otherwise, stop complaining.

[Deleted]

Allowing for you to select your spec for loot drops in LFR was the change to the system which is aimed at discouraging people from playing their unintended spec while in a raid.

That's probably all we'll see. The only other thing I can think of would be a more clear depiction of a character's spec'd role while in the raid. The default raid panel would have to give a bigger visual cue or to show a role imbalance. There may even be a raid-warning style message to all players when a player leaves/goes offline/changes role.

Here's the thing... there will not be any auto-kick mechanics. That's far too discriminatory. Just because a casual bunch of Monday raiders have a hard time with Joe the shadow healer doesn't mean all of LFR should have to suffer. There are plenty of people who queue as groups and intentionally skimp a tank or a couple healers just to make the raid run faster. There are also plenty of hybrid players who do their fair share of both damage and healing simultaneously who are performing the role of two characters at once. Punish them? Definitely not.

As previously stated: Use the vote-to-kick option if you see a player abusing the system and they're not pulling their weight. Otherwise, stop complaining.

We did actually see 2 changes; the loot specialization and the swift kick, if you got queue boosted by a healer, who leaves right after zoning in.

As I've said before, I do see the issue in locking people's spec and I'm not sure that's the right thing to do. Vote to kick is the obvious solution to many things but in theory it doesn't always work. Cause kicking someone requires 5 votes and while that's not a lot, are you really going to kick 5 out of 6 healers, cause they caused a wipe after not healing? I think most people would just rage at them and then continue, after making sure that they're actually healing this time. But having to wait for 5 new healers isn't going to speed anything up either.

About not complaining; that's not really a fair card to pull. Cause then that would apply to everything in this game, which I guess you could argue for. But if you've been "unlucky" with your LFR runs, feeling the need to kick several people or the same but in 5 man dungeons, you won't always be able to vote kick the second you wish to. If a person has done something really stupid - like ninjapulling 3 times in a row just "for the lulz" - then that person might be "protected" from vote kicks for say 1 hour or even just 15 mins.

If anything, I'd say that getting a queue boost impacted less on the group as a whole than queuing as healer with no healing spec can. The difference is, that when getting queue boosted, you make someone who didn't queue boost sit longer in the queue. It still didn't really affect the group though, cause healers are almost always instant and it doesn't take long to replace them.

[cityguy193]

I often do this now just to get my Alts geared. 30+ min queues for DPS when I can just queue healer and DPS anyway while the other 5 Healers still heal fine.

suits me fine.

if the LFR population was not so docile, you would be kicked out every single time for being an ass.
If every healer starts to think like this, then the group would wipe all the time.

[Embermoon]

No boss in LFR requires two tanks. Every LFR is a debate between the tanks who is going to go dps or go AFK for boss fights.

Still, I agree with you, locking people to specs would be retarded. There is a reason you can change specs.

Yep. And, if flex raiding winds up having the net effect (read: my own supposition) of making LFR the domain of the low-geared, less-skilled players, even more so, than it is, now, then I'd shudder to be in one, where people couldn't role-swap, in order to make the raid successful.

I think SomeGuyVT hit the nail on the head, with a (simple?) solution that wouldn't require reworking the queueing system. (I'd still like to see them make adjustments to the queue system, but that would require more work, obviously) Add something to the UI, that indicates when players swap from the roles they queued for. Let it be a persistent icon, on the raid frame, in addition to . So, if you do have an occurrence where all 6 healers swap to dps, then it's obvious to the whole raid, and can be sorted out before a wipe. Or, if the raid wipes with, say, 3 healers, and some people drop, and more come in, then it's obvious who the folks are, who should either volunteer, or be asked to go back to heal spec.