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  1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Do you have a blue on that? After the Eredar and Sargeras retcon from TBC I thought it was unknown exactly when Sargeras left the Pantheon (Although technically all we had previous to that was the WC3 manual that gave a general history with no dates, nor specifics on when Sargeras left the Pantheon).
    "Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth."

    The only thing retconned about Sargeras was which demon species corrupted him.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notos View Post
    Only reason I feel bad for them is because Blizz turned Tyrande into an idiot over the past couple expansions.
    how is she an idiot. In Warcraft 3 she was the hot-headed warrior priestess
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    to add to that
    If the Purge of Dalaran is not a "fist-pump moment" for the Alliance, then the Cataclysm leveling zones are not "fist-pump moments" for the Horde
    Did you play the Purge of Dalaran? It felt more like the Death Knight starting zone with the slaughtering of New Avalon. Vereesa had been waiting for any excuse to throw the Sunreavers out, killing them if able ever since Rhonin was killed. The "Purge of Dalaran" was Jaina telling the player, "I'm going to go imprison the Sunreavers who choose not to leave into the Violet Hold." Vereesa then comes up to you and says, "Jaina totally left me in charge, here's a list of names I want you to kill, and then go to the Sunreaver inn and kill everyone in sight." The Purge of Dalaran was the equivalent to the bombing of Thal'darah Grove. Had the Sunreavers actually been an armed force that was fighting back, rather than running in the streets in fear because their portals had been shut down, the dragonhawks were put down and a pissed off and unreasonable Jaina Proudmoore was walking around the city teleporting people into the Violet Hold on sight, then maybe it would have been a fist-bump moment. Fist-bumps come about from putting in an effort and coming out on top with some goal achieved. The Purge of Dalaran was nothing like that, and if you pay attention was basically a Horde plot device to explain why Lor'themar didn't leave the Horde outright and join the Alliance. It wasn't like Tol'Barad or Icecrown where you'd go around killing the opposite faction and they'd actually put up a fight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's old in-game literature (literally, that's vanilla beta in age) and is out of date. When the Titans encountered the old gods it was their second visit to Azeroth.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    It wasn't like Tol'Barad or Icecrown where you'd go around killing the opposite faction and they'd actually put up a fight.
    Ai, so it dsnt feel good because of so?
    Yet those Cataclysm "Horde fist pump" things were done in the name of the Warchief who is now a villian/raid boss

    And plenty of the Sunreavers fought back, as people dont like being imprisoned, and it would have been boring gameplay
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Ai, so it dsnt feel good because of so?
    Yet those Cataclysm "Horde fist pump" things were done in the name of the Warchief who is now a villian/raid boss

    And plenty of the Sunreavers fought back, as people dont like being imprisoned, and it would have been boring gameplay
    And apart from a handful of occasions, and until Theramore, the Horde was generally proud of what they did in-game. Andorhal? Ashenvale? Azshara?

    edit: Yes, they fought back, in the same fashion the peasants in New Avalon did, which literally doesn't translate to much. The named NPCs on Vereesa's hit list fought back more so than the nameless NPCs, but it wasn't any better.
    Last edited by kendro1200; 2013-07-26 at 05:06 AM.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    That's old in-game literature (literally, that's vanilla beta in age) and is out of date. When the Titans encountered the old gods it was their second visit to Azeroth.
    So what? No retcons changed Sargeras leaving the Titans before they fought the Old Gods, therefore it still stands. The only thing that changed from what I linked was that being the Titans' second coming to Azeroth.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #987
    The Patient Vamandrac's Avatar
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    Blizzard wouldn't know how to write a decent story for the Alliance if it hit them in the face. I've all but given up on a small victory or anything for the Alliance because Blizzard can't be bothered that it might show their precious Horde losing for once.

    Everything I say is absolute. If you disagree, you're a communist.

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So what? No retcons changed Sargeras leaving the Titans before they fought the Old Gods, therefore it still stands. The only thing that changed was that being the Titan's second coming to Azeroth.
    And so it still stands that if we wanted to play the blame game by association the Trolls and Tauren are at the end of the chain, because once again, they could have stopped (again playing this game creates unreasonable expectations of those involved, so even though they reasonably couldn't, the game dictates that since they still exist they should have and since they didn't they are thus responsible) the Titans from everything they did to Azeroth and thus prevent the Alliance or Horde from ever existing (remember the Horde exists because of Knack and time travelling mages creating paradoxes). Like I said, it's a bad and stupid game, don't play it, it ends up tagging all of the responsibility on beings utterly incapable of preventing everything that happened.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    And so it still stands that if we wanted to play the blame game by association the Trolls and Tauren are at the end of the chain, because once again, they could have stopped (again playing this game creates unreasonable expectations of those involved, so even though they reasonably couldn't, the game dictates that since they still exist they should have and since they didn't they are thus responsible) the Titans from everything they did to Azeroth and thus prevent the Alliance or Horde from ever existing (remember the Horde exists because of Knack and time travelling mages creating paradoxes). Like I said, it's a bad and stupid game, don't play it, it ends up tagging all of the responsibility on beings utterly incapable of preventing everything that happened.
    There's a difference between being ants among gods and being an incompetent prophet/leader who could barely convince a handful of people not to join Sargeras.

    If you take the blame game all the way up, it goes to the Pantheon just letting Sargeras go off on his own.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 05:09 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There's a difference between being ants among gods and being an incompetent prophet/leader who could barely convince a handful of people not to join Sargeras.

    If you take the blame game all the way up, it goes to the Pantheon just letting Sargeras go off on his own.
    Except with the Draenei it was less than a third of the people that went with Velen, over 2/3'rds of the Eredar wanted to join Sargeras. That says something fundamentally about the original Eredar (after the TBC retcon) they were inherently bad, or in the very least a very dark shade of grey to begin with, but didn't have the means of intergalactic conquest. Like some of the Forsaken aren't interested in killing the living, should those Forsaken be held responsible for South Shore? Velen wasn't the sole leader of the Eredar he was one of three prominent Eredar, something akin to leaders. The other two were Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, they were his peers, Velen wasn't their superior, and he was at that point a self-proclaimed prophet, there wasn't any religion centered around him at that point.
    We could hold everything to the Pantheon, if they simply didn't go around "ordering" everything none of this mess would exist. The Old Gods would have either left Azeroth alone or completely destroyed it during their genocidal games of amusement. Sargeras would have never turned. All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion, the Eredar would still be its own race, probably going through some sort of societal moral struggles, and the Orcs would have stayed a little shamanistic race. Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes wouldn't exist, nor would any of the dragons.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  11. #991
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    -snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    -snip-
    Love how I pointed out I was joking and I still get lore thrown at me that I all ready know /sigh. I did learn some world history though . Also to add. Sylvanas is on of my favored Lore characters and I still think she should have died at Icecrown. Rightfully the land belongs to the Argent Crusade. I would love to see Sylvanas and her people find piece and move on. With only the ones that are truly willing to restore nature left (Undead in the Argent Crusade).
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Sundering? Bah, the world had it coming. :P
    We should sunder more worlds. We could call are selves, the Flaming Armada.
    Last edited by Solzan Nemesis; 2013-07-26 at 05:29 AM.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
    Love how i pointed out I was joking and I still get lore thrown at me that I all ready know /sigh.
    Sorry didn't catch the /joking or /sarcasm. I simply saw your post with a one liner on the page and was filled with rage, because I hate Stratholme being used as an example of Alliance genocide or acts of atrocity. It was an impossible situation that couldn't be resolved any other way. I think people point to it because they only see it through the WotLK CoT version, which leaves out huge chunks of back story leading up to it. Arthas didn't just see plagued villagers and think, "Well...Light's Vengeance hasn't been bathed in peasant blood today, let's go raze a city!" He had just one or two nights previously attempted to save a village (Hearthglen) that had only been infected that morning and fought day and night waiting for reinforcements as villagers turned around him and his men were killed. After going through that he arrives to another place (Stratholme) and has to choose to go through that again or to try and prevent the people of the city from having to go through the horrible experience of death by the plague. There is literally no other event in Warcraft's history that compares to that.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  13. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
    . Rightfully the land belongs to the Argent Crusade.
    Rights are imaginary. They hold as much credibility as Winnie the Pooh.
    Power is everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    I simply saw your post with a one liner on the page and was filled with rage, because I hate Stratholme being used as an example of Alliance genocide or acts of atrocity. It was an impossible situation that couldn't be resolved any other way.
    As I recall Uther saying once "Being king is sometimes about choosing between a wrong choice and a wronger choice" - or somethin like that

    Yet it is supposed to serve as a "AHA" moment. To show that this character is now on a dark path leading up to a villian.
    Its kinda standard for Blizzard
    Other examples are Garrosh - Theramore, Arturus Mengsk - Tarsonis
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #994
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    -snip-
    Np.
    I remember that mission (survive 10 mins), and I know I would have killed the people too. Undeath is a curse that only the insane or thoughts afraid to die would want. (I should point out that if magic was real I would be the 1st to jump at the chance to learn necromancy.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Rights are imaginary. They hold as much credibility as Winnie the Pooh.
    Power is everything.
    Ever day the Dark Lady becomes darker, soon her goals will clash with the Argent Crusades. I would hate to see her take the same rode as another of my favored lore characters Keal'thas Sunstrider. As for power. belief in your right can become power. If you are strong and willing.
    Last edited by Solzan Nemesis; 2013-07-26 at 05:57 AM.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Except with the Draenei it was less than a third of the people that went with Velen, over 2/3'rds of the Eredar wanted to join Sargeras.
    Much less than 1/3 followed Velen. He even laments his impotence as a leader.
    Velen grieved over his impotence. He wanted to save all of his people, as he had sworn to do, but he knew that was impossible. Most would trust in Kil’jaeden and Archimonde, and follow them to their doom. But there were a few who thought as he did, who would forsake everything merely upon his word. They would need to; their home world of Argus would shortly be destroyed, devoured by the madness of the demonic legion. Those who would survive would have to flee.
    ...
    Velen saw that their number was sickeningly small. They numbered only in the hundreds, these who were the only ones Velen truly trusted.

    --Rise of the Horde

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    That says something fundamentally about the original Eredar (after the TBC retcon) they were inherently bad, or in the very least a very dark shade of grey to begin with, but didn't have the means of intergalactic conquest. Like some of the Forsaken aren't interested in killing the living, should those Forsaken be held responsible for South Shore?
    The Eredar were not even close to being bad or a shade of grey. "Worlds for them to conquer, and more importantly, to explore and investigate; for above all, the eredar were curious. For beings so powerful, knowledge was what meat and drink were to lesser beings, and Sargeras offered them a tantalizing glimpse into what could be theirs if they would only . . ." They were more interested in exploration than intergalactic conquest. They were noble and "a strong, passionate, proud people." Sargeras showed them that they would bring the light of civilization to those worlds and they would be adored for it. KJ said "I do not want to give up what I know to be positive and good and true for what I fear might be unpleasant."

    Plus there's the Draenei, who are as the Eredar were originally...

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Velen wasn't the sole leader of the Eredar he was one of three prominent Eredar, something akin to leaders. The other two were Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, they were his peers, Velen wasn't their superior, and he was at that point a self-proclaimed prophet, there wasn't any religion centered around him at that point.
    "The three of them had always worked well together, their diverse personalities serving to balance one another. The result was harmony and peace for their people. He knew that Kil'jaeden and Archimonde truly wanted what was best not only for themselves, but for those they led."

    KJ was powerful, wise, and decisive.
    Arch was vain and impetuous.
    Velen was cautious and had visions. They completely dismiss Velen's vision as "This is not a glimpse into the future that we can verify. It is only your hunch." "There is no veracity here, only an image in your own mind." "I do not want to give up what I know to be positive and good and true for what I fear might be unpleasant."

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    We could hold everything to the Pantheon, if they simply didn't go around "ordering" everything none of this mess would exist. The Old Gods would have either left Azeroth alone or completely destroyed it during their genocidal games of amusement. Sargeras would have never turned. All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion, the Eredar would still be its own race, probably going through some sort of societal moral struggles, and the Orcs would have stayed a little shamanistic race. Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes wouldn't exist, nor would any of the dragons.
    All the Titans had to do was lock Sargeras up or talk some sense into him. When he left, he was still good, he was just depressed. Because they let him wander off on his own, he was later consumed completely by madness.

    So the Titans just letting evil run rampant across the universe would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion
    Only a tiny fraction of demons are in the Legion. The number of demons in the Twisting Nether is infinite. The Legion only had 1 million demons during WotA (WC3 Manual) and only a few millions during TBC.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 06:03 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #996
    Maybe the new Warchief will hand over one of the zones? It won't be 5.4 where we'll get a new Warchief, so who knows.

  17. #997
    "ERMERGERD BLIZZARD IS BIAS FOR KEEPING GAME BALANCED"

    Thats what i got from all of this. For the longest time Alliance had a monopoly on lore and more zones, and now its even and you ppl aren't happy. You even get to kill Horde characters next patch and you're not happy.

    How's about the fact that lorewise the Horde is at a disadvantage, or that we lose many of our few characters we have, while the Alliance lose no major characters??

    Seriously people, this isnt Tera, there's 2 factions here and they both deserve the same amount of attention, in game and lorewise.

  18. #998
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thenamedosentfi View Post
    http://greyshades.files.wordpress.co...erothlarge.jpg

    Also, the speculation that elves came from trolls has never been confirmed.
    At the beginning of the world, now known as Azeroth, the god-like titans created the Well of Eternity, source of all magic on the planet. In time, a tribe of dark trolls came to settle near the translucent waters of the well. These feral, nomadic humanoids built crude homes on the shore of the well, and named themselves Kaldorei, which meant "children of the stars" in their native tongue. The trolls believed that their moon goddess, Elune, slept within the Well’s shimmering depths during the daylight hours. Exposed to the potent power of the well, the trolls began to evolve, eventually becoming the first night elves.[1]

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Night_elves
    http://www.wowpedia.org/World_of_War...lume_2_Issue_1
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #999
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So apparently Jaina and Vereesa capturing and killing blood elves and driving any presence of the horde from dalaran isn't 'getting one up' on the horde to you.

    This is why its hard to take some of you alliance fans seriously, you don't acknowledge any wrong doing from your own side, and just look for any scapegoat for it. The horde does some bad shit (which the bombing of theramore is on Garrosh, not the horde itself), and that gets taken into account, but Jaina and Vereesa killing and capturing blood elves? Pff, naaaaah, thats fine, alliance can get away with that.

    The worst culprits in war are those that remain complacent in there actions. If you can blame all the horde for Garrosh's actions against theramore, I can just as easily hold the alliance responsible for Jaina and Vereesa's actions in dalaran. Eye for an eye.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Meaning you want a complete victory and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. Yeah, heard it all before.
    She did that because the Sunreavers betrayed her and used Dalaran's Neutrality to steal the divine bell. It's NOT because theramore. Get your facts checked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    "ERMERGERD BLIZZARD IS BIAS FOR KEEPING GAME BALANCED"

    Thats what i got from all of this. For the longest time Alliance had a monopoly on lore and more zones, and now its even and you ppl aren't happy. You even get to kill Horde characters next patch and you're not happy.

    How's about the fact that lorewise the Horde is at a disadvantage, or that we lose many of our few characters we have, while the Alliance lose no major characters??

    Seriously people, this isnt Tera, there's 2 factions here and they both deserve the same amount of attention, in game and lorewise.
    Excuse me, monopoly on lore and more zones?
    In Vanilla there was hardly ever a lore development.
    In TBC We were mostly dealing with blood elf lore development ending in the purifiying of the Sunwell
    In Wrath both factions got lore development (if you hordes think you didn't: The rise of garrosh, the creation of the plague, etc etc)
    And since Cata its all Hordey-thrallfest.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    She did that because the Sunreavers betrayed her and used Dalaran's Neutrality to steal the divine bell. It's NOT because theramore. Get your facts checked.
    Vereesa was directly in charge of the Purge and she did it because of Theramore. She was still whining about it at the Isle of Thunder when Jaina decided to let the Blood Elves walk away.

    Also, Dalaran was far from neutral. They chose to stand against Garrosh.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 08:03 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

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