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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Maybe you should try not having such negative opinions, WoW has done tons of things great and good, and I could easily list it off as my 5th favorite fantasy setting. But this is not a Thread for Positive things is it?
    Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    So that's fucking it.

    Our "great fist pump" moment we were promised is walking out of the city with no terms of peace agreed and no lands returned.

    As usual the alliance were just along for the ride and gained absolutely nothing from it.

    Who cares about Ashenvale getting burnt down? Gilneas ravaged? Our men turned by Valkyr into Forsaken? Our Prince having his body crushed?
    After stepping foot into our capitol, be thankful we let you walk away. Whine some more and we'll just have to conquer more of your cities. The beatings will continue until morale improves!

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You mean I am a neckbeard because I enjoy thr fact that the world is not Black and white, and that the Horde has it's own Noble image and is not just a bunch of bad guys for the alliance to shit on?
    No, I think you're a neckbeard because of those little tufty patches of hair on your neck.

    The Horde not being black and white also means it's not white. It is, in part, the ideal of shamic brotherhood and renewal. It is also undeniably the repeated failure to live up to that. It's the uniting cause of the diverse and discarded peoples of Azeroth to fught side by side for a place in a world that doesn't want them. It is their tendency toward monstrosity when doing so.

    The horde is all about high hopes and grand disappointments; it is a tragic faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    That I enjoyed a faction composed not of Warlords or Warmasters but of a Banded group of outcasts joined together for survival and eventual union? Please, spare me your stupid notions of "The Old Horde". Thats what they are, the OLD Horde, one that Doomhammer tried to change, but failed. And Thrall succeeded in throwing off the chains of Demons and warlock hidden castes.
    There are some chaps in the Cleft of shadow who'd like to have a word, but first let us welcome the Blackrock clan back into the Horde! Perhaps we can get the folks from Undercity, Silvermoon, and the Echo isles to put on a fel-shadow-unholy performance on for them?

    This internal contradiction is sorely lacking in the Alliance, and has a detrimental impact on the portrayal thereof. Lazy writing pegs them as the rational, moral, 'straight man' counterpoint to the Horde's histrionic melodrama. Just as the Horde is a faction of Monsters aspiring towards nobility- the Alliance should be a faction of noble races, struggling with an inner monstrosity. For all their shining light, civilised sensibilities, and moral superiority- they are at their essence the encfranchised elite; the winners of history who inhabit peace and prosperity very much at the expense of others, and who have little sympathy or charity for the unfortunate many beyond reaches of the system they sit proudly atop.

    But we couldn't possibly have nuanced story telling; it is after all just a game.ds house and neglecting to mention the Mafia has a hit out on you. Dick move, Velen, dick move.[/QUOTE]

  4. #1064
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.
    Quite Standard things really.

    1. Is Warhammer Fantasy due to the outstanding WHFRPG and it's ability really make a gritty and grim fantasy where your character can get mauled and mangled.
    2. Is Eberron, Everybody loves Eberron.
    3. Is Lord of the Rings, such a rich setting with great amounts of detail.
    4. Is Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.

    All offer different things, while also being able to be used widely in PnP RPGS, Books, Video games and so forth. Warcraft fits among them too. At best I could call it since Warcraft 3 a more lighthearted Eberron.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  5. #1065
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well.......now I'm curious what your other top 5 favorite fantasy settings are.
    - Middle earth
    - Spira
    - Hyboria
    - Toon town
    - Oz

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?

    It was very clear from the beginning that we just eliminate the Kor'kron threat and after that it'll be business as usual.



    We did gain something. We exchanged a "raawr human smash!" Gladiator with a proper King worth respecting... and gained a "whackjob soon to be raidboss" Archmage on the side.
    Sadly, mostly alliance players like "human smash" and played through MoP without stopping to even notice that Anduin is receiving the same treatment as Thrall had in Cataclysm. With the exception that Alliance hated Thrall, even if he did all for the greater good, while Horde is loving the way Anduin is going.

  7. #1067
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.
    /me reveals his own neckbeard, and stokes it whilst nodding in sagely agreement.

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!
    Why was this not used in game for goblins?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Quite Standard things really.

    4. Is Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.
    Only one I've not heard of/am familiar with. And now I have something to go read up on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    Sadly, mostly alliance players like "human smash" and played through MoP without stopping to even notice that Anduin is receiving the same treatment as Thrall had in Cataclysm. With the exception that Alliance hated Thrall, even if he did all for the greater good, while Horde is loving the way Anduin is going.
    I've seen a lot of Horde say they want nothing more than to slaughter Anduin in the most horrific way possible. Only....a lot of Alliance find him annoying as well. XD

    I think Varian's development has been great, if a little lacking in important areas. The "oh btw, I've been negotiating to bring the blood elves into the Alliance" out of nowhere was a huge miss. So much could have been done with that rather than just a single statement that "it was happening."
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  9. #1069
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    No, I think you're a neckbeard because of those little tufty patches of hair on your neck.

    The Horde not being black and white also means it's not white. It is, in part, the ideal of shamic brotherhood and renewal. It is also undeniably the repeated failure to live up to that. It's the uniting cause of the diverse and discarded peoples of Azeroth to fught side by side for a place in a world that doesn't want them. It is their tendency toward monstrosity when doing so.

    The horde is all about high hopes and grand disappointments; it is a tragic faction.

    There are some chaps in the Cleft of shadow who'd like to have a word, but first let us welcome the Blackrock clan back into the Horde! Perhaps we can get the folks from Undercity, Silvermoon, and the Echo isles to put on a fel-shadow-unholy performance on for them?

    This internal contradiction is sorely lacking in the Alliance, and has a detrimental impact on the portrayal thereof. Lazy writing pegs them as the rational, moral, 'straight man' counterpoint to the Horde's histrionic melodrama. Just as the Horde is a faction of Monsters aspiring towards nobility- the Alliance should be a faction of noble races, struggling with an inner monstrosity. For all their shining light, civilised sensibilities, and moral superiority- they are at their essence the encfranchised elite; the winners of history who inhabit peace and prosperity very much at the expense of others, and who have little sympathy or charity for the unfortunate many beyond reaches of the system they sit proudly atop.

    But we couldn't possibly have nuanced story telling; it is after all just a game.ds house and neglecting to mention the Mafia has a hit out on you. Dick move, Velen, dick move.
    [/QUOTE]

    The Horde thing you said is the first thing I could truely agree upon with you, a very apt and correct about that.


    For the Alliance though, let us be real. The Alliance SHOULD be a faction of Noble races struggling with an inner monstrosity. But there are two problems with this.

    Firstly, the way the cosmic universe in Warcraft even works is, the alliance has the Moral high ground as a sort of metaphysical constant. Paladins always seem to be good guys under the Alliance, Draenei are literally lead by Angels. Dwarves are conservative and steady. Night Elves are always right for some reason and always good. Gnomes are cute and curious. Worgen are simply pained, not heavily conflifcted. So on and so forth. The Alliance hasn't done anything "bad" because the very background for the Alliance is made to be good. Kill a thousand unarmed Orcs? No big deal, the Horde did that with the Alliance, we're totally nice. Alliance uses Demons? Big Deal, the Horde was enslaved and still uses Demons! Hell, right now we have "Alliance isn't so bad, Garrosh used Old God Blood!" By the very design of the Alliance since Warcraft 1, has been the good guys.

    And the Second, more easier thing to mention is the fanbase. They cry and gnash and bitch about how the Alliance are "Too good" or "Too nice" But they'd change their toon instantly if they saw the Gnomes use radiation bombs to kill innocent people. Or Paladins not be Paragons of Good. They ant to be the good guys, but they want a bit of edge, They would totally not be the bad guys.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Only one I've not heard of/am familiar with. And now I have something to go read up on.
    It's a DnD Campaign setting, Brilliant if you enjoy a PnP session thats not at all serious and very very Pulp.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    to add to that
    If the Purge of Dalaran is not a "fist-pump moment" for the Alliance, then the Cataclysm leveling zones are not "fist-pump moments" for the Horde

    I'd accept that if we had an updated Dalaran that reflected the Purge. Seeing as how we DON'T have one, while the horde have all the new zones to reflect Garrosh's successes I call BS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    And the ACTION to nuke them was a very black and evil thing.

    The RESULTS however were for the greater good, making the whole ideal a very strange shade of Gray.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I had no idea you didn't play Warcraft 3.

    Err WC3 followed the events of Thrall breaking out the orcs from the camps then DEMANDING, not asking not negotiating, DEMANDING that the Alliance cede land to the orcs or FACE A WAR THAT WOULD MAKE THE ACTIONS OF THE OLD HORDE PALE IN CAMPARISON.

    If that's not swinging first, then I don't know what is.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    The Horde thing you said is the first thing I could truely agree upon with you, a very apt and correct about that.


    For the Alliance though, let us be real. The Alliance SHOULD be a faction of Noble races struggling with an inner monstrosity. But there are two problems with this.

    Firstly, the way the cosmic universe in Warcraft even works is, the alliance has the Moral high ground as a sort of metaphysical constant. Paladins always seem to be good guys under the Alliance, Draenei are literally lead by Angels. Dwarves are conservative and steady. Night Elves are always right for some reason and always good. Gnomes are cute and curious. Worgen are simply pained, not heavily conflifcted. So on and so forth. The Alliance hasn't done anything "bad" because the very background for the Alliance is made to be good. Kill a thousand unarmed Orcs? No big deal, the Horde did that with the Alliance, we're totally nice. Alliance uses Demons? Big Deal, the Horde was enslaved and still uses Demons! Hell, right now we have "Alliance isn't so bad, Garrosh used Old God Blood!" By the very design of the Alliance since Warcraft 1, has been the good guys.

    And the Second, more easier thing to mention is the fanbase. They cry and gnash and bitch about how the Alliance are "Too good" or "Too nice" But they'd change their toon instantly if they saw the Gnomes use radiation bombs to kill innocent people. Or Paladins not be Paragons of Good. They ant to be the good guys, but they want a bit of edge, They would totally not be the bad guys.
    I don't always agree with The Fiend, but when I do, it's with everything he says.

    Certainly, there must remain an intrinsic and constant moral highground for the Alliance, if only because in this morally subjective setting there is some semblance of a standard. That said, I do think it would be worthwhile to throw an obstacle in the way of the Alliance's mission to be the paragons of justice and goodness from time to time. Like a 'Lawful or good' dilemma, or a Knight Templar teammate. They would of course overcome this, but struggle leads tension, tension leads to drama, drama leads to hate, hate leads to fear, fear leads to suffering, suffering leads to the dark side, the dark side leads to climax, climax leads to resolution, and resolution leads to catharsis. Or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    It's a DnD Campaign setting, Brilliant if you enjoy a PnP session thats not at all serious and very very Pulp.
    TvTropes summarises it beautifully; "Dungeons & Dragons meets Star Trek. It's like porn for nerds."

    Also, something I didn't know until reading that article; its glorious innovative quirks are a product of some suit trying to force the designers to push out a standard fare sci fi setting to capture that market- the designers just loaded it with crazy bullshit and somehow passed it off to publication.

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Tyrande was a fucking moron back in WCIII

    Orcs are chopping our lumber? Attack them
    Orcs are defending themselves? Bring in Cenarius
    Cenarius is dead and there's Humans and Orcs attacking the Undead that are our enemy? They're all savages, an alliance with them would be stupid. ATTACK!
    Burning Legion is invading? Better free my crazy brother-in-law so he can absorb a demonic artifact, do a bit of good and proceed to attempt to rip apart Northrend with another Demonic Artifact

    Face it, Tyrande has always been an idiot. The only difference is that she would argue her dumb logic against Malfurion's points, and somehow sees wisdom in what Varian says. If they wanted to stay true to WCIII Tyrande they would have her suggest "Dumb Idea #5,739" have it get shot down by Varian, and then have her do it anyway. Her being dumb wasn't because they butchered her character, the only thing they butchered was her voice, Tyrande was just born dumb.

    Doesn't speak much for Thrall's intelligence if he left Garrosh in charge even after his advisors told him it was a bad idea does it...
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  13. #1073
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Doesn't speak much for Thrall's intelligence if he left Garrosh in charge even after his advisors told him it was a bad idea does it...
    Garrosh has been great for the Horde; we've seen expansion in territorial holdings and where there was once a major Alliance military port pumping Northwatch troops into the Barrens and Durotar, there is now a steaming crater.

    Could be that Garrosh did exactly as anyone would have guessed he would do. Could be that's exactly why Thrall picked him for the job- the be the big bad meanie to do what needs to be done and then be removed for it as a scapegoat. When Vol'jin was all like 'wtf Thrall?!' in the Troll starting zone, Thrall said 'Dude, I hear you, but Garrosh is what the Horde needs right now. Trust me.' He practically winked. All paraphrasing, btw.

    Garrosh is Thrall's patsy.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    Garrosh has been great for the Horde; we've seen expansion in territorial holdings and where there was once a major Alliance military port pumping Northwatch troops into the Barrens and Durotar, there is now a steaming crater.

    Could be that Garrosh did exactly as anyone would have guessed he would do. Could be that's exactly why Thrall picked him for the job- the be the big bad meanie to do what needs to be done and then be removed for it as a scapegoat. When Vol'jin was all like 'wtf Thrall?!' in the Troll starting zone, Thrall said 'Dude, I hear you, but Garrosh is what the Horde needs right now. Trust me.' He practically winked. All paraphrasing, btw.

    Garrosh is Thrall's patsy.
    Garrosh wasn't the Warchief the Horde deserved, but the Warchief they needed?
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #1075
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Garrosh wasn't the Warchief the Horde deserved, but the Warchief they needed?
    He's the Warchief we needed to have.

    Seriously though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power, then his 'leadership style' can't have been a surprise. Either Thrall is a loyal idiot, or a treacherous genius- the way he's acting all outraged and helping the rebellion.

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    He's the Warchief we needed to have.

    Seriously though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power, then his 'leadership style' can't have been a surprise. Either Thrall is a loyal idiot, or a treacherous genius- the way he's acting all outraged and helping the rebellion.
    Maybe the Cataclsym simply hammered Thrall to the point of desperation and in that desperation, he turned to an orc he didn't fully understand.

    Okay, okay, no more references, I promise.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  17. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Tyrande was a fucking moron back in WCIII
    being a hot-headed warrior priestess does not make her a moron, unless you expect all and every character to be perfect goody-two-shoes
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #1078
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    being a hot-headed warrior priestess does not make her a moron, unless you expect all and every character to be perfect goody-two-shoes
    The decisions she makes make her a moron, not being a hot-headed warrior priestess.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  19. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power
    well 1 thing you have to remember is Thrall's initial plan was not to have Hellscream as a pernemant replacement - hence "Acting" Warchief

    Which is why Thrall chose him in the first place, not for his political savy but for his fiery spirit and his love of the Horde. So that he can keep the spirits of the Horde high to remind them they are strong, so then Thrall can in the meantime figure out Wtf is wrong with the elements.
    Needless to say, nothing in Azeroth goes according to plan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    The decisions she makes make her a moron, not being a hot-headed warrior priestess.
    really? She meets Orcish/human/undead military advances into her lands with military action. Seems kinda typical for characters that are warrior-born
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #1080
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    well 1 thing you have to remember is Thrall's initial plan was not to have Hellscream as a pernemant replacement - hence "Acting" Warchief

    Which is why Thrall chose him in the first place, not for his political savy but for his fiery spirit and his love of the Horde. So that he can keep the spirits of the Horde high to remind them they are strong, so then Thrall can in the meantime figure out Wtf is wrong with the elements.
    Needless to say, nothing in Azeroth goes according to plan

    - - - Updated - - -


    really? She meets Orcish/human/undead military advances into her lands with military action. Seems kinda typical for characters that are warrior-born
    Dont make me count all the dumb stuff she did. At the top of the crown being killing friendlies to free an enemy out of his millenium prison, setting off the Wardens after him wich ultimately causes Maiev (a better character than Tyrande IMO) to go insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

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