I forget Baine's reasoning, but it was done to repay Jaina for what she'd done in helping him with Thudner Bluff. Think she provided money for mercs or something, I forget. Anyway, he didn't realize that Garrosh was going to wait as long as he did and allow the Alliance to actually put up a defense that fought the siege back.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
EDIT: I found it: "Even so, the warning had been given to prevent a massacre of the Alliance, not so that the Alliance would have a chance to massacre the Horde." More indication that he wanted Jaina to evacuate, not for them to fortify and cause more Horde deaths.
Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-27 at 12:47 AM.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Bolvar, Darian, Tirion and Arthas were leading the expansion in lore, they are all alliance.
I hope a fuse is lite to go off after taking out Garrosh and his minions. The way both factions are being portrayed lately, is making them look weak and babyish.
On a side note, though, who the fuck wages war in terms of equivalences anyhow? I'm pretty sure most people stop doing that around age 5.
I never listed Varian. all 4 characters i listed would never be caught helping the Horde nor being called Horde, but you can't say that for the Alliance. You also have the Dwarves whose 3 brothers had a large lore update that easily counters garrosh's screen time. Dont forget 1 of them is the leader of that group that does archaeology, that is an alliance exclusive group.
Wotlk = Alliance
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Arthas never once stopped being Alliance, his evil self wanted to turn everyone undead, not just kill them. He also still claimed to be king of Lordaeron. Kinda like Garrosh corrupting his ppl against their will and still calling himself warchief.
Bolvar never left the Alliance and now is probably the most powerful being on the planet(not with arthas' powers but his command of the scourge). Darion never left either, and though he formed a faction of both races, he would probably side with Alliance over Horde if it came to it. Tirion was removed from leadership of the town he governed, by showing mercy to a horde. That doesnt mean he leaves the faction. And he also proved his alliance ties by entering Northrend with them.
These are alliance characters, just as much as thrall and garrosh are horde characters. We put up with yours and enjoyed it, why hate on ours?
Alliance warcrimes would be....Taurajo I presume? That's the usual example given, even though it's an example only because players don't care what happened there and go with the popular, yet erroneous, story.The horde and the alliance both have done war crimes against eachother.
Treaty? What Treaty? They came to an informal understanding and the VJ couldn't even uphold his half. There was no Treaty.But banding together to fight Garrosh is a treaty between the rebels and the alliance, to go against that treaty would be bad. The horde would never forget this, and frankly, the horde are better fighters and warriors.
Ironic. Many Horde players suggest nothing is wrong and that the Alliance players should just shut up and quit whining.and walking a mile in another persons shoes
The Alliance players want a story, they want their faction to be treated with the same respect as the Horde. They have the right to expect that, and they have the right to express their displeasure when that isn't delivered.and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.
That's because Pandaria doesn't really teach anything. It tries, but it shoves so many contradictions and plain untruths down your throat the lesson just gets lost.Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here.
Never forgetting that those people are also your lifelong enmiees who supported the regime and its aims until it turned on them as well.Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out
B. Because you hate each other anyway, don't owe the people YOU helped anything and because they still hold the lands and territory you want back.A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.
As those "friends" still hold vast tracts of your territory and are unlikely to give them back to you (some friends, eh?) and turned on their master only because he was mean to them as oppposed to any moral quandries about how evil he was to you the question is not whether you would shake hands.I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.
The question is whether you would reward their unprovoked aggression and overlook their unwarranted invasion of your lands and the slaughter of tens of thousands of your people and encourage them to rebuild and attack again as they have done in the past, sacrficing your future peace and security simply so you can have the warm glow of "moral superiority".
The Alliance needs a viable reason to overlook the continued occupation of their territories and "moral superiority" and "reparations" does NOT come anywhere close to providing that reason.
On where the Alliance actually gets its lands back and has no reason to fight the Horde again. One where the Horde doesn't learn that the Alliance is weak and won't fight for what it owns.What would make for a better peace, one full of conditions or one where Varian ask for nothing?
Poor as it is, that would suffice.At best, you could only have the zones back on paper.
Worth the paper its written on.The alliance is not leaving empty handed, they are leaving with the new horde owing the alliance a giant debt of gratitude.
Plot armor is what will keep the Horde together. Nothign really too wrong with that given its a gamne...but if Blizzard wants Varian to leave, that should feature somewhere in his excuse.
Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 04:59 AM.
Am I missing something in the story of the siege here, or is it not the Horde and the Alliance working together to kill Garrosh? We're allowing them to help us kill our own Warchief, why would we owe the Alliance something afterwards? Does the Alliance not want to kill Garrosh anyways? We're allowing that to happen and even becoming equal partners in doing so. Why should either side be specially rewarded? The Alliance is not "Conquering" Orgrimarr? The Horde is helping just as much. We're a Coup of sorts formed from members of both factions. Garrosh and the Korkram are not = the horde! They are simply the corrupt current leadership group of the Horde. Therefore, since the Allies are in no way "Conquering" the "Horde", they are no more deserving of Horde lands then the Horde is worth of additional Ally lands as a result of the victory. Its an equal victory, the Horde forms a new, less corrupt leadership group, and both sides go on their merry way happy!
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And Varian will leave Orgrimarr willingly because if he doesn't, the Horde will kick his ass! Defeating Garrosh and his Korkram will in no way defeat the horde, only its corrupt leadership group. If anything, the death of Garrosh will bring the Horde closer together. Do you honestly think the Horde would let King Varian stay in Orgrimarr and issue demands once they have control of their own faction again? Don't be silly. Varian will leave Orgrimarr peacefully because he's not dumn, and he values his life.
2. The information we have so far indicates the Alliance is coming out of this stronger, and Varian decides to leave to prevent further bloodshed and not because he fears the Horde. Wrathion's audio, the only thing we really have to go for right now, suggests he's in a position where he could keep hitting the horde until it 'caves.' Dev comments have also said that the Horde will be coming out of this conflict weaker than the Alliance, while the Alliance is united and strong.
From what devs have said, he doesn't leave out of fear for his life, and the alliance is coming out MUCH stronger and united. How long would the Alliance stay united if Varian decided to leave the worgen and night elves out in the rain by not reclaiming eastern ashenvale and Gilneas? Especially with Gilneas, an entire nation forced to flee their homeland.
That said, it's all speculation until we see that cut scene, but what information we DO have suggests that Varian was in a position where he could, over time and with losses, shatter the horde but decides to end the bloodshed there, but that doesn't mean they don't want their stolen lands back.
Last edited by Malzra; 2013-07-28 at 05:37 AM.