1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Preparing and training to destroy each other, but no yet trying to destroy each other.
    Thats a delicate balanace to maintain
    So long as they keep it to skirmishes like they have through much of WoW, it's not going to really be a problem. When one side goes full derp conquest mode like Garrosh did (and what Wrathion wants), that's when both sides get severely depleted.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    When one side goes full derp conquest mode like Garrosh did (and what Wrathion wants), that's when both sides get severely depleted.
    Thats the thing though, are leaders supposed to dictate policy based on some unforseen possibly non-existant enemy?

    The only people that even remotely care about the Legion are Wrathion and the Draenei, others hardly care since there is no reason to. Why be worried about some goddam aliens from outer space when you have enemies right next door.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Thats the thing though, are leaders supposed to dictate policy based on some unforseen possibly non-existant enemy?

    The only people that even remotely care about the Legion are Wrathion and the Draenei, others hardly care since there is no reason to. Why be worried about some goddam aliens from outer space when you have enemies right next door.
    Well, we don't know how the inter-faction relations will shape up after SoO, but the Horde Rebellion being indebted to the Alliance and Varian seemingly leaving the Horde be suggests they likely aren't going to be going at each other very hard (aside from the usual skirmishes). It'll probably be a similar situation like after ICC, maybe even more cordial or they just leave each other alone to lick their wounds.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:39 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No. If they were going to go down the unlikely road towards yet another revamp, what they need to do is set everything at Year 0. Vanilla. Have everything work through as it did before, but upgrade and streamline the experience as necessary. At L60, have the world event at the Portal. At L70, have the Zombie invasion. At L80. Have the Elemental invasion. L80-L85 will have the post-Cata questlines and stories. At 85, the fall of Theramore. L85-L90 will be Pandaria.

    Simply make everything fit together in a storyline that makes sense and keeps the stories in Vanilla that were good. Unfortunately, fixing what went wrong with Cata would require too much work and offer too little return to justify the investment.

    EJL
    I'm beginning to wonder if they shouldn't simply end WoW and start WoW2 with a new storyline and a better way to make the leveling experience and the world fit with the evolution of the story.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?
    Yes, yes I do. As previously mentioned, it's completely ridiculous for Varian to roll up in Org, knock it over, kill the warchief, hold ALL the cards, and then just turn it over for nothing in return.

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheros View Post
    Yes, yes I do. As previously mentioned, it's completely ridiculous for Varian to roll up in Org, knock it over, kill the warchief, hold ALL the cards, and then just turn it over for nothing in return.
    Lore != game mechanics. Just because they don't update zones in the Cataclysm timeline doesn't mean that story wise things aren't happening.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Lore != game mechanics. Just because they don't update zones in the Cataclysm timeline doesn't mean that story wise things aren't happening.
    If Theramore can be phased into a smoking crater, then they can change something to reflect the Alliance raid on Orgrimmar. As it stands, you could remove the Alliance side entirely without affecting anything in the story.

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    If Theramore can be phased into a smoking crater, then they can change something to reflect the Alliance raid on Orgrimmar. As it stands, you could remove the Alliance side entirely without affecting anything in the story.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Will the Alliance receive compensation lore wise (Doesnt have to be in game) after SoO?
    They just conquered their enemy's capital. What compensation are you looking for? (Source)

    Like making the Horde back out of Gilneas and Ashenvale?
    I'm a gameplay designer. So what gameplay is there in losing leveling zones for Horde? (Source)
    If Alliance players had some interesting way to spend time there, that would be different. (Source)

    Do Allies gain NOTHING from this war except tens of 1000s dead and their lands stolen? Not even in lore? Goblins keep Azshara
    Garrosh is the real problem, not the trolls and goblins. (Source)
    Lore-wise we could say that zones changed hands but wouldn't it be lame once you visited them and saw that was not the case? (Source)
    It's always a challenge doing a lot of work just for lore reasons unless it comes with awesome gameplay too. (Source)

    Quest blurb "We of the Horde agree to withdraw all forces from Azshara...." is not a lot of work.
    But they wouldn't actually do that unless we rebuilt the zone. Can't you argue that is lame as well? (Source)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #1189
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    why does that not make sense?
    wITHOUT Orcs to fight humans will just fight each other
    Really? The last time Humans fought each other, outside of splinter rebel factions like the Defias and various Pirates, was long before the wars; the Humans were united under the banner of Arathor, after he beat each Human tribe into submission and brought them into his own. Since then Humans might have argued over land and resources or what is best for Humans (See the Alliance of Lorderaeon), but there's no reason to assume Humans would devolve into internal war. Genn Greymane and Anasterian Sunstrider left the Alliance because of Terenas' decision to imprison the Orcs in camps and withdrew their forces, Daelin Proudmoore also sided against letting them live but remained with the Alliance; eventually taking his fleet after the escaped Orcs later. But there was no indication that civil war was about to erupt, not immediately anyway.

    Chances are, without Orcs we'd lose any imminent War as we wouldn't have the need for such a large standing army. Vol'jin has worked with the Alliance twice now, during the rise of Zul and now during Siege. Baine has a close relationship with Anduin, Lor'themar had contemplated siding with the Alliance and assuming everything can be smoothed out between the Kirin Tor and Sunreavers, there's no reason to assume they would continue a war. They wouldn't be friends, but at least there wouldn't be a prolonged conflict. That only leaves the Goblins and Forsaken. The Goblins would simply side with the Alliance out of greed; what can the Forsaken give the Goblins? They might be sat on one of the oldest and richest cities of the Human world, but that's not alot when the remainder of the Alliance can easily out produce their wealth.

    Without the Orcs, Humans would fight the Forsaken and retake Lorderaeon, and if there can be no peace between the Sunreavers and the Kirin Tor, Silvermoon would be subdued. Or, without the Orcs to draw military attention elsewhere, the full force of the Alliance could land on the Eastern Kingdoms and just destroy the Forsaken Army. After that the armies wouldn't be needed and would likely be retired. Then the Legion comes again and we all die.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Will the Alliance receive compensation lore wise (Doesnt have to be in game) after SoO?
    They just conquered their enemy's capital. What compensation are you looking for? (Source)

    Like making the Horde back out of Gilneas and Ashenvale?
    I'm a gameplay designer. So what gameplay is there in losing leveling zones for Horde? (Source)
    If Alliance players had some interesting way to spend time there, that would be different. (Source)

    Do Allies gain NOTHING from this war except tens of 1000s dead and their lands stolen? Not even in lore? Goblins keep Azshara
    Garrosh is the real problem, not the trolls and goblins. (Source)
    Lore-wise we could say that zones changed hands but wouldn't it be lame once you visited them and saw that was not the case? (Source)
    It's always a challenge doing a lot of work just for lore reasons unless it comes with awesome gameplay too. (Source)

    Quest blurb "We of the Horde agree to withdraw all forces from Azshara...." is not a lot of work.
    But they wouldn't actually do that unless we rebuilt the zone. Can't you argue that is lame as well? (Source)
    That first blue post you quoted is ok. The others, not so much. You can't really use the term "conquer," as it implies that Orgrimmar belongs to the Alliance after the siege, which it clearly won't. Plus, I don't think I would call Gilneas a "leveling zone," since right now it's one of the biggest wastes of space/resources in the game. I could also say that non-phased zones that contradict the lore of a given area is lame, but Blizzard seems to be ok with that type of "lame."

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Plus, I don't think I would call Gilneas a "leveling zone," since right now it's one of the biggest wastes of space/resources in the game.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We didn't want to tempt you with other cities you'd never want to visit.

    BURN! (on us maybe)

    Losing your starting city, homes, etc. just fit with the Cataclysm vibe. It's one of the few places where I think that ultimate devastation really played out. Obviously more literally for the Goblins, but similarly for Worgen. But even with that similar thread of 'loss, they're different stories, and the battle rages on to this day to control Gilneas.

    Much like the other battlegrounds, it's lost to no one, and sought by all. (Source)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    I could also say that non-phased zones that contradict the lore of a given area is lame, but Blizzard seems to be ok with that type of "lame."
    In order for them to phase an entire zone there has to be a gameplay justification for doing it. Since those zones are leveling zones stuck in a time bubble, there's really no gameplay justification to change those zones for lvl 90s. And if they did change those zones for level appropriate stuff, it would completely destroy the flow since you'd be jumping forward and back in time across 2 expansions worth of events/time.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We didn't want to tempt you with other cities you'd never want to visit.

    BURN! (on us maybe)

    Losing your starting city, homes, etc. just fit with the Cataclysm vibe. It's one of the few places where I think that ultimate devastation really played out. Obviously more literally for the Goblins, but similarly for Worgen. But even with that similar thread of 'loss, they're different stories, and the battle rages on to this day to control Gilneas.

    Much like the other battlegrounds, it's lost to no one, and sought by all. (Source)
    Sure, but at least the Goblins got a nice chunk of land to compensate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    In order for them to phase an entire zone there has to be a gameplay justification for doing it. Since those zones are leveling zones stuck in a time bubble, there's really no gameplay justification to change those zones for lvl 90s. And if they did change those zones for level appropriate stuff, it would completely destroy the flow since you'd be jumping forward and back in time across 2 expansions worth of events/time.
    I really don't think phasing some new content (say, a hypothetical battle with the Legion with Gilneas as the staging ground) is really all that disruptive. Clearly Blizzard is willing to do things like that, going by what we've seen of 5.3 Barrens.

  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Moral of the story; an expansion where the Alliance supposedly turn the tables on the Horde, results in an unchanged Orgrimmar, and a crater in the place of Theramore.

    Isn't that satisfying?
    That's pretty much the gist of it really...

    Oh, and I must correct you on Orgrimmar on 2 points:

    1) It did change, it got a massive MASSIVE revamp that's arguably 3x better, useful and productive than Stormwind's (which still has a smoking crater in it, by the way).

    2) The Horde had a problem... but the Alliance is coming to help fix THEIR problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheros View Post
    Yes, yes I do. As previously mentioned, it's completely ridiculous for Varian to roll up in Org, knock it over, kill the warchief, hold ALL the cards, and then just turn it over for nothing in return.
    Varian: At last, the evil tyrant is out and peace is once restored again.

    Thrall: Yes, so many dead and so much wasted on foolish aspirations of pride.

    Varian: So... now we must discuss the issues of turning Southshore and its citizens into a plague of undead monstrosities, blowing up Theramore and killing hundreds of its citizens, the Bilgewater Cartel completely stealing/raping the land of Azshara from the Nightelves, the perpetual encroachment on Nightelf territory in Stonetallon Moutnains and the Forsaken ran-sacking the entire country of Gilneas - which also resulted turning their citizens into undead monstrosities...

    Thrall: YAY! ALL IS BACK TO NORMAL! TIME TO PARTY!!! SURF'S UP!!!

    Thrall then jumps into the ocean. Using his Shamanistic powers, a large tidal wave rises up out of the ocean and starts heading away from shore - with Thrall striding atop a surfboard at the crest of the wave - the result is him surfing as fast as possible off into the sunset.
    Last edited by mvallas; 2013-07-30 at 05:40 PM.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    That's pretty much the gist of it really...

    Oh, and I must correct you on Orgrimmar on 2 points:

    1) It did change, it got a massive MASSIVE revamp that's arguably 3x better, useful and productive than Stormwind's (which still has a smoking crater in it, by the way).
    Supposedly Orgrimmar will also get another update of some sort before the next expansion....
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We didn't want to tempt you with other cities you'd never want to visit.

    BURN! (on us maybe)

    Losing your starting city, homes, etc. just fit with the Cataclysm vibe. It's one of the few places where I think that ultimate devastation really played out. Obviously more literally for the Goblins, but similarly for Worgen. But even with that similar thread of 'loss, they're different stories, and the battle rages on to this day to control Gilneas.

    Much like the other battlegrounds, it's lost to no one, and sought by all. (Source)
    You have GOT to be friggin kidding me...

    /looks at the entire land of Azshara

    /looks at Bilgewater Harbor

    /looks at Gallywix's pleasure palace

    /looks at the massive minecar rollercoaster going accross the land

    /flies to Darnasssus

    /stares at the stupid burnt out hollowed tree with 4 Worgen standing in it.

    /begin to cry
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    I really don't think phasing some new content (say, a hypothetical battle with the Legion with Gilneas as the staging ground) is really all that disruptive. Clearly Blizzard is willing to do things like that, going by what we've seen of 5.3 Barrens.
    The SoO outcome only happens for lvl 90s. It would be disruptive to 1-60 leveling zones. Like going from Cata Darkshore, jumping to post-MoP Ashenvale, then jumping back to Cata Stonetalon Mountains.

    They said they would really only phase those zones if they have something to offer for current-level gameplay. And like you said, Barrens/Durotar are good examples. They phased it for lvl 90s because they gave lvl 90s a reason to go there. They would have to make a reason for 90+ toons to go to those zones if they want to phase them to reflect post-SoO events.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-30 at 05:53 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The SoO outcome only happens for lvl 90s. It would be disruptive to 1-60 leveling zones. Like going from Cata Darkshore, jumping to post-MoP Ashenvale, then jumping back to Cata Stonetalon Mountains.

    They said they would really only phase those zones if they have something to offer for current-level gameplay. And like you said, Barrens is a good example. They phased it for lvl 90s because they gave lvl 90s a reason to go there. They would have to make a reason for 90+ toons to go to those zones if they want to phase them to reflect post-SoO events.
    Right, that's my point. Trying to pin blame on players not wanting to go to a certain location or city as an excuse to ignore certain zones is bad form on the part of the dev team IMO. If players aren't wanting to go to a place, then the devs haven't done a good job of making that place interesting or enjoyable. Plenty of people would want to go to say, Gilneas again for the sake of things, if they designed compelling game/lore reasons to go there. The Barrens skirmishes with the Kor'kron aren't disruptive to the leveling process because they're phased for high-level players. The same thing could be done anywhere in the game.
    Last edited by Gelannerai; 2013-07-30 at 06:00 PM.

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    If Theramore can be phased into a smoking crater, then they can change something to reflect the Alliance raid on Orgrimmar. As it stands, you could remove the Alliance side entirely without affecting anything in the story.
    I think this sums it up pretty well. So far the way the expansion's climax has been developed, there's really no sensation that the Alliance is necessary short of Vol'jin claiming so in an optional bit of flavor text. It's just been developed around the Horde handling Horde problems with the Alliance tacked on.

    The Horde invading Orgrimmar to reclaim it from Garrosh's twisted dark "true" Horde with the Alliance aiding them is somehow "The Alliance conquers Orgrimmar" only they don't conquer it. In any way, shape, or form. It would be silly for the Alliance to do so from a game play perspective because that would pretty much be weird for the Horde player base.

    I agree it wouldn't really make sense for Alliance to conquer and occupy Orgrimmar, but the way it's being handled and they're writing it off as Alliance awesome sauce is pretty unimpressive for Alliance pride.

    We'll just have to see, but for the most part I'm pretty well checked out on WoW story. I have no faith, hope, nor expectations that Blizz will do jack diddly with Alliance going forward, so WoW is indeed pretty much no longer an RPG and just a straightforward game for phat lewtz to me now.

    It makes me sad. Maybe, maaaaaybe, Blizzcon will get me hyped again.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Right, that's my point. Trying to pin blame on players not wanting to go to a certain location or city as an excuse to ignore certain zones is bad form on the part of the dev team IMO. If players aren't wanting to go to a place, then the devs haven't done a good job of making that place interesting or enjoyable. Plenty of people would want to go to say, Gilneas again for the sake of things, if they designed compelling game/lore reasons to go there. The Barrens skirmishes with the Kor'kron aren't disruptive to the leveling process because they're phased for high-level players. The same thing could be done anywhere in the game.
    The problem is that a lot of people want the phasing just for the sake of reflecting Garrosh's defeat at SoO. But phasing Ashenvale (for example) just for "oh look, the Horde retreated" doesn't really offer anything substantive to justify doing it. If the Horde is giving it up in a treaty/agreement what would lvl 90s be doing there? Are lvl 90 Horde sent there to help them pack their bags and carry pianos out of the zone? Are lvl 90 Alliance given quests to just stand around making sure the Horde leaves?

    The most likely way it would happen is if something unrelated to the post-SoO agreements takes place there, and the phasing just reflects the current state of affairs for the zone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I think this sums it up pretty well. So far the way the expansion's climax has been developed, there's really no sensation that the Alliance is necessary short of Vol'jin claiming so in an optional bit of flavor text. It's just been developed around the Horde handling Horde problems with the Alliance tacked on.

    The Horde invading Orgrimmar to reclaim it from Garrosh's twisted dark "true" Horde with the Alliance aiding them is somehow "The Alliance conquers Orgrimmar" only they don't conquer it. In any way, shape, or form. It would be silly for the Alliance to do so from a game play perspective because that would pretty much be weird for the Horde player base.

    I agree it wouldn't really make sense for Alliance to conquer and occupy Orgrimmar, but the way it's being handled and they're writing it off as Alliance awesome sauce is pretty unimpressive for Alliance pride.

    We'll just have to see, but for the most part I'm pretty well checked out on WoW story. I have no faith, hope, nor expectations that Blizz will do jack diddly with Alliance going forward, so WoW is indeed pretty much no longer an RPG and just a straightforward game for phat lewtz to me now.

    It makes me sad. Maybe, maaaaaybe, Blizzcon will get me hyped again.
    They've already said that the after-effects of SoO won't be added until a later patch and before the next expansion.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They've already said that the after-effects of SoO won't be added until a later patch and before the next expansion.
    Yeah, and my sub just renewed, so I'm on board for 6 months no matter what, so we'll see.

    But the only after effects I've heard them refer to is revealing who the new Warchief will be. I honestly just don't expect any ramifications or plot points of interest for the Alliance anymore. Warcraft is essentially about the Horde and their journey. I don't think Blizzard has the ability to write for the Alliance due to not really sparking any excitement among them internally. They don't get fired up about Alliance leaders, lore, or stories like they do for the Horde characters. They don't got that fire in their belly for both sides, I don't think.

    Which honestly, happens. Sometimes even when it's YOUR characters you're writing, some of those characters lose interest and others hold it.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-07-30 at 06:16 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

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