Page 62 of 62 FirstFirst ...
12
52
60
61
62
  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It improves the immersiveness of the game and it provides a visual in game reward for players, showing that their actions can and do have an impact. That reward, that sense of statisfaction at seeing how actions are reflected in game has a value in its own right that doesn't depend on the presence of quests.
    Immersion is useless and a waste of resources if players don't have a reason to go there. Making such a large change just so people see it once while flying over then afk'ing in cities does not justify the resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Blizzard had no real need to remove Theramore from the game, for example. But it did so. Why? Because the in game impact provided a sense of a living world and a reward for Horde players who get to see it destroyed as a result of their actions.
    Perhaps, but it was a tiny location compared to sweeping zone changes. Removing something and replacing it with an empty crater is a far cry from changing all the NPCs and architecture of a zone. Theramore was also directly involved in the events of the scenario for which it was changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As for what L90s would be doing there...assuming you did piut quewst there, then there are other possibilities. Clearing out Garrosh holdouts. Cleansing the rmenants og the Burnign legion. Building up Forest Song and acting to support the Alliance forces in Azshara. Helping to regrow the forest the Orcs cut down, honoring the dead slaughtered by the Horde, locating the remanants of Garroshes secret weapons, diplomatic quests to the Horde (perhaps in response to an "incident"), finally dealing with the Furbolg and so on.

    Anyone who can't think of relevant quests that could be added to any reclaimed zone isn't thinking hard enough

    Putting it bluntly....Blizzard can phase the lands and zones to reflect the changed situations. If they wanted to they could just swap over some graphics for Horde to Alliance equivalents. Or they could add new sites, new bases and a vastly increased Alliance presence along with stories and quests....for BOTH sides.

    The question is would this be worth the effort. This would help wrap up this storyline, it would provide activities and content for both sides and it would finally give the Alliance players some in game impact and reward.
    I already posted:
    Although... if it were the pre-patch for the next expansion, it could work. Like you're sent off to do this tedious diplomacy/construction crap then suddenly you're attacked by the initial wave of the next Legion invasion, that would be interesting.

    But a patch just for doing tedious crap after the final raid of the expansion isn't likely going to be worth it for Blizzard. They aren't going to throw resources at something like that when they could spend it on the next expansion.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #1222
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    But a patch just for doing tedious crap after the final raid of the expansion isn't likely going to be worth it for Blizzard. They aren't going to throw resources at something like that when they could spend it on the next expansion.
    "Do you want updated old zones or a new x-pac?" - Metzen
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    "Do you want updated old zones or a new x-pac?" - Metzen
    If it's phased and actually incorporated into the narrative, I don't have a problem with it. It worked alright for 5.3.

    EDIT: I'd like to reiterate the difference between 5.3 and the proposed post-SoO crap:
    "Giving them something to do isn't the same giving them a reason to go there. Reworking Ashenvale in a post 5.4 patch as you describe sounds pretty lame. After fighting a massive battle to remove the most hated man in Azeroth with an expansion's worth of buildup, you are sent off to do chores... in an area which is even more optional than 5.3. The Barrens/Durotar stuff at least pushes the story towards the climax and acts as a setup for how the invasion of Orgrimmar will happen."
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-30 at 09:17 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #1224
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sofia/Bulgaria
    Posts
    4,059
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    "Do you want updated old zones or a new x-pac?" - Metzen
    So cataclysm wasnt an expansion.
    Okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  5. #1225
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If it's phased and incorporated into the narrative of the new expansion, I don't have a problem with it. It worked alright for 5.3.
    yes but he was referencing old zones ( as in not max level)
    Cata changes were done for gameplay reason not purely lore, to make the leveling better and more engaging (since most sub losses are from people who dont reach max level)

    Plus part of the whole vibe for new expansions is just new zones and lands, places we havent been before
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    yes but he was referencing old zones ( as in not max level)
    Cata changes were done for gameplay reason not purely lore, to make the leveling better and more engaging (since most sub losses are from people who dont reach max level)

    Plus part of the whole vibe for new expansions is just new zones and lands, places we havent been before
    I know. That's why I've been saying that if they were to make 90+ go back to those zones to show the post-SoO outcomes, there'd have to be compelling gameplay to give us a reason to go there. Doing so takes up deveopment resouces. Something Blizzard isn't going to spend after the last raid of an expansion just for lore flavor because they would want to put those resources on the next expansion.

    Unless those things overlap. Like we are sent to those areas for things happening in the next expansion and they just happen to reflect post-SoO because that is the timeframe in which they occur.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-30 at 09:24 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #1227
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Azeroth
    Posts
    125
    Bloody hell this thread is getting into a loop.. The aliance will never have enough "compensation" so the debate is getting silly..

    Ill give blizz at least a thumbs up in keeping ppl pasionate about the lore..

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarry View Post
    Bloody hell this thread is getting into a loop.. The aliance will never have enough "compensation" so the debate is getting silly..

    Ill give blizz at least a thumbs up in keeping ppl pasionate about the lore..
    The Alliance will never have enough compensation!?

    Hell man, I'm still trying to find the first installment of said "compensation" for the lopsided design of Cataclysm ("Compensation" that's not also mutually beneficial to the Horde, I mean - so don't wave the "Deposing the Warchief" at me, as damn near every Horde player and character hated him since Wath).

    That's like all the Gnomes shouting "Damnit! We want to see more Gnome love!" and you saying "My God... they fixed the Black Morass so you guys don't swim anymore. Are you NEVER satisfied!?"
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    That's like all the Gnomes shouting "Damnit! We want to see more Gnome love!" and you saying "My God... they fixed the Black Morass so you guys don't swim anymore. Are you NEVER satisfied!?"
    The shittiest race of warcraft should be happy that they were not retconed out of existence yet.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Immersion is useless and a waste of resources if players don't have a reason to go there.
    The same can be said for any zone and any area in game.

    Theramore was also directly involved in the events of the scenario for which it was changed.
    Other areas have changed as a result of dungeons and scenarios and raids and quests without that change being reflected in game. different?

    But a patch just for doing tedious crap after the final raid of the expansion isn't likely going to be worth it for Blizzard. They aren't going to throw resources at something like that when they could spend it on the next expansion.
    "Tedious" meaning doing the same stuff you 'll be doing in the new continent anyway, with the main difference being where you do it.

    As it is...it could be done. It could be done in an engaging fashion. Simply writing off the stories and quests and lore that can be written as not worth it because you think the end result will be "tedious" is simply you not putting in any effort into developing new stories such as Ashenvale....the Demon remnant has succeeded in opening a portal and the area is now the centre of the demon invasion or Azshara....main focus of the Naga assault on the Night Elf territories and the front line in the efforts to hold them back.

    Story is what you make it and if you require gameplay to be present to update a zone, gameplay can be provided.

    As it is, a lore based victory, a few lines of quest text, a reward if a copy of the Actual treaty specifying terms and conditions and so on woudl be acceptable to many Allaicne players, Just something to sto[p them looking like a bunch of suckers.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-30 at 11:06 PM.

  11. #1231
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    "Tedious" meaning doing the same stuff you 'll be doing in the new continent anyway, with the main difference being where you do it.
    Which is a big difference
    Part of the drive and vibe of a new expansions or even major patches is new environments and creatures
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Which is a big difference
    Part of the drive and vibe of a new expansions or even major patches is new environments and creatures
    Which can be provided by changing the old areas as well.

    EJL

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The same can be said for any zone and any area in game.
    Except those zones are building up for the overarching story and feed into the climactic ending, not some vanity wind-down tacked on after the climax of the expansion is over.

    They didn't make a patch after DS devoted to Aggra pushing out a baby orc. Or the Aspects walking around adjusting to their mortal lives. They didn't even bother making a patch about the Earthen Ring sticking around the Maelstrom to repair it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Other areas have changed as a result of dungeons and scenarios and raids and quests without that change being reflected in game. different?
    Just keep ignoring the relevant points about the scale of the things they changed:
    it was a tiny location compared to sweeping zone changes. Removing something and replacing it with an empty crater is a far cry from changing all the NPCs and architecture of a zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    "Tedious" meaning doing the same stuff you 'll be doing in the new continent anyway, with the main difference being where you do it.
    I've already posted this:
    If it's phased and actually incorporated into the narrative, I don't have a problem with it. It worked alright for 5.3.

    And:
    That's why I've been saying that if they were to make 90+ go back to those zones to show the post-SoO outcomes, there'd have to be compelling gameplay to give us a reason to go there. Doing so takes up deveopment resouces. Something Blizzard isn't going to spend after the last raid of an expansion just for lore flavor because they would want to put those resources on the next expansion.

    Unless those things overlap. Like we are sent to those areas for things happening in the next expansion and they just happen to reflect post-SoO because that is the timeframe in which they occur.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #1234
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which can be provided by changing the old areas as well.
    And old zone is still and old zone.
    Which do you think Blizz and players prefer, new content in an old zone or new content in a new zone?

    And there is literally zero reason to redo leveling zones again, gameplay always trumps lore for WoW.
    And new content has to be dynamic, what exactly would then be making an old zone into a max content zone provide? What is its purpose? What is it supposed to lead to?
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-07-30 at 11:22 PM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except those zones are building up for the overarching story and feed into the climactic ending, not some vanity wind-down tacked on after the climax of the expansion is over.
    And there's no reason why old zones can't be used for the same purpose. And what's wrong with a wind down? Closure in a story is important.

    They didn't make a patch after DS devoted to Aggra pushing out a baby orc. Or the Aspects walking around adjusting to their mortal lives. They didn't even bother making a patch about the Earthen Ring sticking around the Maelstrom to repair it.
    But that was mentioned in lore.

    it was a tiny location compared to sweeping zone changes. Removing something and replacing it with an empty crater is a far cry from changing all the NPCs and architecture of a zone.
    Depends on how you do it. A straight swap Horde NPC for Alliance NPC won't be that difficult.

    That's why I've been saying that if they were to make 90+ go back to those zones to show the post-SoO outcomes, there'd have to be compelling gameplay to give us a reason to go there. Doing so takes up deveopment resouces. Something Blizzard isn't going to spend after the last raid of an expansion just for lore flavor because they would want to put those resources on the next expansion.
    Which is why I've pointed out that a lore based victory would be acceptable. And pointed out that developing the zone CAN add gameplay, it CAN be tied into the next Xpac if desired and it CAN add value by providing impact and satisfaction to players.

    What it can't do is fill your personal criteria if those criteria are "find any spurious reason not to do it" . It can be done in a manner relevant to the next XPac.And yes...it would take resources from other aspects. The question is whether that diversion is worth it. Whether throwing Alliance players even a small bone is worth a small investment in effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    And old zone is still and old zone.
    Which do you think Blizz and players prefer, new content in an old zone or new content in a new zone?

    And there is literally zero reason to redo leveling zones again, gameplay always trumps lore for WoW.
    And new content has to be dynamic, what exactly would then be making an old zone into a max content zone provide? What is its purpose? What is it supposed to lead to?
    So Blizzard made a mistake with 5.3 and the Barrens then?

    EJL

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And there's no reason why old zones can't be used for the same purpose. And what's wrong with a wind down? Closure in a story is important.
    Whatever patch is coming after 5.4 is the first time they're going to give a wind-down patch to show the aftermath of the climax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    But that was mentioned in lore.
    And we still have no idea what actually happens at the end of SoO.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)
    Plus there's a whole other patch after SoO for them to reveal the aftermath.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Curious, will we see Org back to normal after 5.4 such as the troll district? Be odd to see current 5.4 PTR next expac.
    Most of Orgrimmar permanent changes will happen in a future patch, but before next expansion. (Source)
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Depends on how you do it. A straight swap Horde NPC for Alliance NPC won't be that difficult.
    And what of the actual gameplay to get players to go there to see the change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which is why I've pointed out that a lore based victory would be acceptable. And pointed out that developing the zone CAN add gameplay, it CAN be tied into the next Xpac if desired and it CAN add value by providing impact and satisfaction to players.

    What it can't do is fill your personal criteria if those criteria are "find any spurious reason not to do it" . It can be done in a manner relevant to the next XPac.And yes...it would take resources from other aspects. The question is whether that diversion is worth it. Whether throwing Alliance players even a small bone is worth a small investment in effort.
    We don't even know what the next expansion is, Blizzard does. If they though putting stuff in those zones would add to the next expansion, they would do it. We don't even know the full extent of SoO ending. People are getting their panties in a bunch over stuff that is over 6 months away from every being implemented.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #1237
    "Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations." Isn't this the major problem with mmo story telling when you get down to it. We spend a lot of time telling but not showing. How much better would have Cata storyline have been if we has seen more of what he was up too rather than. "Look he's evil, now go kill him." It wasn't quite that simple but wasn't far from it.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayomara View Post
    Isn't this the major problem with mmo story telling when you get down to it. We spend a lot of time telling but not showing.
    Sadly, I fear that the developers got way too comfortable with canalizing narratives through implied in-game messages and - above all else - World of Warcraft-related novels. I have seen a couple of instances on off-MMO-Champion sites where many players have ceased to expect any substantial movement of the world in the WoW gameplay and delegating newcomers to lore books and novels was performed as if there was no other way around it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •