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  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by Goosfraba View Post
    I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.
    well if your "friends" have a tendency of murdering you and are still invading your lands as we speak and slaughtering your poplation I think most people would be less "kumbaya" about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know what, I'm just going to take all the alliance whining and crying about this debate.. and just enjoy it.

    If its impossible to make any of you understand about balance and walking a mile in another persons shoes, and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.

    Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here. Pride, how it makes you think what best, only with the worst of result, and being humble is better. But no, lets ignore such an adult subject as that and throw our toys.

    forget it, you people don't ever learn from it.
    sooo no actual ration arguments left I take it?
    and again, why the fuck should anyone listen to what the pandas have to say? Beyond "having a wise sounding voice" most of their bullshit is contradictory and has no relevance or insight into the history of the conflict
    just because someone is saying something doesn't mean they are right

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    If the Alliance had made demands on the Horde, and gotten some zones back then we would be back to the Alliance favoured world of vanilla WoW. I thought Cataclysm made sure to balance things out for once, but all Alliance players see is Horde gaining stuff over them in Cataclysm so they want it back after their victory. It CANNOT happen, since Cataclysm merely balanced out the amount of zones each side has.



    You'll get Dalaran in return for it though. Last I remember in WotLK was Alliance whining that they had to share their city with the Horde. Now Blizzard fixes this and Alliance players still whine. Please realize that the only way Dalaran could go back to the Alliance is if the Horde got something in return or the Alliance lost one of their other cities to balance things out. More and more do I see Alliance whining when they get what they asked for but they can't deal with the game needing a balance between the two factions.
    It does not have to be reflected in game. Just like Dalaran isn't reflected in game.

    The main problem people have is the difference in quality of storyline and gameplay between the 2 factions for 2 expansions

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    Meh, Thrall being the central lore figure in Cataclysm isn't what made Cataclysm primarily Horde-based. What made Cataclysm a Horde-based expansion was Blizzard taking several promising Alliance story points and scrapping them/splicing them into Horde story points instead.

    - It's pretty lame that half of the Worgen intro-story can't be seen by Worgen players.

    - It's pretty lame that the Alliance Twilight Highlands intro got mangled into drunkenDwarfplaneride due to "time constraints."

    - It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't even bother to write in dialogue between the Alliance pc and the Red Dragon Flight that made sense, so we instead get the Horde-side "My people still don't trust you" speech even though it makes zero sense for the RDF to be hostile to Alliance players.

    - It's pretty lame that Varian's scene with the Alliance traitor was cut and Thrall was forced into the scene instead.

    - It's pretty lame that the Alliance loses Andorhal with absolutely no explanation as to why or how.

    - It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't bother to use phasing in the Swamp of Sorrows to show the Alliance victory there.


    The main problem with Cataclysm isn't that it's a Horde-based expansion. The problem is that it was a rushed, scattered expansion, and the Horde focus is a symptom of the expansion's problems, not the problem itself. I don't mind at all that Thrall was such an important figure in Cata, but the other issues (like the examples I mentioned) do rub me the wrong way.

    With MoP, it seems to me that a big reason that Alliance fans have a chip on their collective shoulders is patch 5.3. It reeks of the same rushed, "after-thought" sort of effort that was prevalent in the Alliance experience during Cataclysm, and Alliance players have every right to be a bit gun-shy. Now, I have faith that the Alliance won't come away from the siege "empty-handed," but we'll just have to see.
    Ding ding ding we have a winner.

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know what, I'm just going to take all the alliance whining and crying about this debate.. and just enjoy it.

    If its impossible to make any of you understand about balance and walking a mile in another persons shoes, and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.

    Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here. Pride, how it makes you think what best, only with the worst of result, and being humble is better. But no, lets ignore such an adult subject as that and throw our toys.

    forget it, you people don't ever learn from it.
    Irony, thy name is Trassk.

  5. #925
    Deleted
    can we stop discussing alliance lore and accept that the people that demand alliance favoritism are whiny brats

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    It's not a bad point, but could you imagine the whining that would come with such an outcome? "It's World of WARcraft not PEACEcraft yadayadayada."
    i'd be happy with the war ending immediately.

    Blizzard have shown they don't have the resources or writing ability to create an immersive, progressive war between the 2 factions which is interesting for both sides.

    They simply can't have the war progressing and zones being gained/lost without sacrificing new content

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    can we stop discussing alliance lore and accept that the people that demand alliance favoritism are whiny brats
    There shouldn't be Alliance favoritism. There should be equality in the amount of content the two sides get and the quality of the content. Since Cataclysm, the Alliance has had content that's felt rushed, broken, and incomplete. Like it was thrown together last second and in some cases, Blizzard has admitted to just slapping something together for the Alliance last second due to time constraints. But the Horde still gets their fully fleshed out content.

    I don't care if the Horde burns Stormwind to the damn ground. I just want to properly take part in the story and see it unfold. Battle for Theramore was an example of the problem as ours felt basically like a last second slapped together "clean up the bad guys mkay?" scenarios when the Alliance wanted to be apart of the battle, even if it ended in defeat. Or Andorhal that gets a rushed ending. Hell the Alliance can't even get a phased Stonard but we have Theramore get demolished permanently.

    The problem is Blizzard has openly stated that they have a very hard time writing the Alliance. They don't know where they want our story to go or what to do with us. The result is that the Horde gets written first in detail and the Alliance gets what feels like a halfassed reaction.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-07-25 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    can we stop discussing alliance lore and accept that the people that demand alliance favoritism are whiny brats
    No. You clearly don't even get what people are talking about so don't join in the discussion.

  9. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    After what the Horde has done? Also - what Treaty?

    EJL
    I'm sorry, what exactly did the horde do? and if you say theramore so help me god. The horde and the alliance both have done war crimes against eachother. But banding together to fight Garrosh is a treaty between the rebels and the alliance, to go against that treaty would be bad. The horde would never forget this, and frankly, the horde are better fighters and warriors.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    The difference is the 2 "countries" are already at war and the war apparently is not ending from the latest dev interviews I read.

    Why would the alliance possibly let the horde keep the lands the alliance held until they were slaughtered?

    That "peace" makes absolutely no sense for the alliance.
    That makes me think this would be a great time to begin open conflict with actual annexing. The argument you make reminds me of a lot of territorial conflicts in real history, where both sides still exist, regarding what land belongs to who. How many generations need to be born before territorial lines are agreed upon? Who knows.

    It's not a bad point, but could you imagine the whining that would come with such an outcome? "It's World of WARcraft not PEACEcraft yadayadayada."
    Yeah definitely, lol. Quests would involve delivering meals to the elderly, and instances would be fundraising and building orphanages. Or ... something. Maybe a playground IDK.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Goosfraba View Post
    Imagine there is a leader so corrupt that most of the people under their tyranny want them out of power. Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out, and does what it takes to remove the foul leader and their supporters.

    SO, you win that fight. Do you:

    A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
    B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.

    I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.

    That would work unless...

    The people working under the other guy call you "something that washed up from Theramore"

    The guy Makes the snarky remark about letting a certain booby undead, with fans more rabid than a certain guy named Bieber, grant you the gift of undeath (to an Alliance that's possibly the greatest insult that could be given).

    And the guy is also apparently incompetent to the level that he can't even fulfill his part of the agreement and hold a port.


    Let's be clear the Horde rebellion isn't rebelling out of some moral dilemma. They're unhappy with Garrosh because he's got an orc superiority complex. If Big Brown'd kept that under control there'd be no rebellion since no matter what the leaders might think the huddled masses, by and large, supported him.

    All that we're basically doing is going from WW4 to the second cold war.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    I have levelled multiple Alliance and Horde characters through 1-60 and I can tell you, one faction has a considerably better walk through
    I can attest to this. Horde quest stories tend to be a lot better then Alliance ones. The good Alliance questlines I can think of are vastly outweighed by the good Horde ones.

    Heck, this problem is even present in Burning Crusade (heavy focus on the Mag'har, complete with a unique questline where you prove to Garrosh that the Horde is worthwhile) and Wrath of the Lich King (the Forsaken get a lot of limelight, as does Garrosh)!

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Goosfraba View Post
    That makes me think this would be a great time to begin open conflict with actual annexing. The argument you make reminds me of a lot of territorial conflicts in real history, where both sides still exist, regarding what land belongs to who. How many generations need to be born before territorial lines are agreed upon? Who knows.



    Yeah definitely, lol. Quests would involve delivering meals to the elderly, and instances would be fundraising and building orphanages. Or ... something. Maybe a playground IDK.
    It's an interesting point, and I know it's one heavily discussed in regards to the forsaken and northern Eastern Kingdoms, and it's a debate i'd rather not get into as I don't particularly know enough about it.

    However, zones like Ashenvale and Gilneas should definitely still be considered alliance land

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    I'm sorry, what exactly did the horde do? and if you say theramore so help me god. The horde and the alliance both have done war crimes against eachother.
    Name one thing the Alliance has done that's even close to Theramore.

    Go ahead, I'll give you time.

    And if you mention Taurajo I'll laugh at you. And if you mention the Purge of Dalaran then you clearly don't understand the full story.

  15. #935
    I am glad blizzard favors horde.

    Alliance have been written as lawful good. Lawful good is one of the most boring alignments in all of gaming. The story is over written and well known for the lawful good types. It's predictable and worn out. An alliance centric story would be what exactly? A bunch of humans and elves doing something good for their people? What an interesting turn of events that would be, "rolls eyes."

    The alliance needs the horde story for this game to remain interesting. It makes the game much more dynamic and much less lawful good vs. chaotic evil. Currently, we have greys and a mixture of alignments.

    QQ moar or roll horde. It's a game, get over it. It's such a pathetic 1st world issue.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    I'm sorry, what exactly did the horde do? and if you say theramore so help me god. The horde and the alliance both have done war crimes against eachother. But banding together to fight Garrosh is a treaty between the rebels and the alliance, to go against that treaty would be bad. The horde would never forget this, and frankly, the horde are better fighters and warriors.

    And what war crimes have the Alliance committed against the Horde?

    Internment camps? I find it funny how many consider that to be a crime when you consider the alternatives.

    Tried to kill the Belves? Those were Lordaeron troops who're now most likely part of the Forsaken considering what happened after Sylvie reclaimed the city.

    And....um....coming up empty here.

    And then comes the useless and pointless posturing of "the Horde're better fighters and warriors" especially in the face of the fact that the old rules no longer apply in the face of the Alliance having races like the Draenei (stronger than even Fel Orcs) and Worgen who don't even need weapons. This is balanced by the Horde having goblins, for tech, and belves for magic.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Name one thing the Alliance has done that's even close to Theramore.

    Go ahead, I'll give you time.

    And if you mention Taurajo I'll laugh at you. And if you mention the Purge of Dalaran then you clearly don't understand the full story.
    What's not to understand about Jaina killing/imprisoning/evicting a sizable part of her own city's population without any evidence that the Sunreavers as a group were traitors, no investigation to find out what happened, and imprisoning a member of the Council of Six without even consulting the council? She overreacted. Should something have been done? Yes, but she acted rashly.

    Not saying it's as bad as Theramore but it's worse than some make it out to be.

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    You'll get Dalaran in return for it though. Last I remember in WotLK was Alliance whining that they had to share their city with the Horde. Now Blizzard fixes this and Alliance players still whine. Please realize that the only way Dalaran could go back to the Alliance is if the Horde got something in return or the Alliance lost one of their other cities to balance things out. More and more do I see Alliance whining when they get what they asked for but they can't deal with the game needing a balance between the two factions.
    I hate this point because it's been stated by blues, the Alliance has Dalaran ONLY ON PAPER (even then it's a strained possession because Jaina just wants Garrosh gone from the Horde, once he's gone she'll take the Kirin Tor back to neutral). There is nothing in the game that supports this supposed "gain", just like in the game there is nothing to support over half of the "cool Alliance pieces" that are written on off-topic media. Dalaran is an after thought that is swept under the rug because it's "too hard" to copy and paste the city somewhere else, because forbid that there be two of the same thing in different locations for the sake of moving a story forward. It's not like we've had two of other things in different locations with it explicitly stated in game that stuff has moved and people haven't gotten dumbfoundly confused over the matter.
    As many people have stated, the Alliance players are upset BECAUSE large portions of their faction content are glued and taped together at the very last minute, while the Horde faction content has been getting insane amounts of attention and detail.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by MathAddict View Post
    I am glad blizzard favors horde.

    Alliance have been written as lawful good. Lawful good is one of the most boring alignments in all of gaming. The story is over written and well known for the lawful good types. It's predictable and worn out. An alliance centric story would be what exactly? A bunch of humans and elves doing something good for their people? What an interesting turn of events that would be, "rolls eyes."

    The alliance needs the horde story for this game to remain interesting. It makes the game much more dynamic and much less lawful good vs. chaotic evil. Currently, we have greys and a mixture of alignments.

    QQ moar or roll horde. It's a game, get over it. It's such a pathetic 1st world issue.
    Nobody is asking for it to be alliance centric, they are asking for a balance and coherent writing and gameplay that makes sense and is as equally intriguing for both sides.

    Some people have enjoyed the alliance for a long, long time and have grown attached to it.

    Saying "QQ just reroll" doesn't work

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    i'd be happy with the war ending immediately.

    Blizzard have shown they don't have the resources or writing ability to create an immersive, progressive war between the 2 factions which is interesting for both sides.

    They simply can't have the war progressing and zones being gained/lost without sacrificing new content
    I've noticed that blizzard plays around with new tech integration before doing something full-blown, for instance the BG/LFG allowing different servers to play together, then CRZ, and soon merging the battlegroups (I know I oversimplified that).

    I hope that the zone based persistent pvp we saw with Krasarang Wilds develops into a persistent zone pvp explosion with real objectives, not just dailies. The ability to put any number of people into CRZ-like instanced zones opens a lot of big possibilities. Crossing my fingers that I'm right on this. A reason to leave the city and maybe even the queue would be great.

    TL;DR Hopefully the new technological changes they're making make bigger things like that a reality.

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