[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Faroth]

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

Why was this not used in game for goblins?

Quite Standard things really.

4. Is Spelljammer, because Space ships powered by magic with DnD races is hilarious fun, but sadly rarely played.

Only one I've not heard of/am familiar with. And now I have something to go read up on.

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Sadly, mostly alliance players like "human smash" and played through MoP without stopping to even notice that Anduin is receiving the same treatment as Thrall had in Cataclysm. With the exception that Alliance hated Thrall, even if he did all for the greater good, while Horde is loving the way Anduin is going.

I've seen a lot of Horde say they want nothing more than to slaughter Anduin in the most horrific way possible. Only....a lot of Alliance find him annoying as well. XD

I think Varian's development has been great, if a little lacking in important areas. The "oh btw, I've been negotiating to bring the blood elves into the Alliance" out of nowhere was a huge miss. So much could have been done with that rather than just a single statement that "it was happening."

[Deleted]

No, I think you're a neckbeard because of those little tufty patches of hair on your neck.

The Horde not being black and white also means it's not white. It is, in part, the ideal of shamic brotherhood and renewal. It is also undeniably the repeated failure to live up to that. It's the uniting cause of the diverse and discarded peoples of Azeroth to fught side by side for a place in a world that doesn't want them. It is their tendency toward monstrosity when doing so.

The horde is all about high hopes and grand disappointments; it is a tragic faction.

There are some chaps in the Cleft of shadow who'd like to have a word, but first let us welcome the Blackrock clan back into the Horde! Perhaps we can get the folks from Undercity, Silvermoon, and the Echo isles to put on a fel-shadow-unholy performance on for them?

This internal contradiction is sorely lacking in the Alliance, and has a detrimental impact on the portrayal thereof. Lazy writing pegs them as the rational, moral, 'straight man' counterpoint to the Horde's histrionic melodrama. Just as the Horde is a faction of Monsters aspiring towards nobility- the Alliance should be a faction of noble races, struggling with an inner monstrosity. For all their shining light, civilised sensibilities, and moral superiority- they are at their essence the encfranchised elite; the winners of history who inhabit peace and prosperity very much at the expense of others, and who have little sympathy or charity for the unfortunate many beyond reaches of the system they sit proudly atop.

But we couldn't possibly have nuanced story telling; it is after all just a game.ds house and neglecting to mention the Mafia has a hit out on you. Dick move, Velen, dick move.

[/QUOTE]

The Horde thing you said is the first thing I could truely agree upon with you, a very apt and correct about that.


For the Alliance though, let us be real. The Alliance SHOULD be a faction of Noble races struggling with an inner monstrosity. But there are two problems with this.

Firstly, the way the cosmic universe in Warcraft even works is, the alliance has the Moral high ground as a sort of metaphysical constant. Paladins always seem to be good guys under the Alliance, Draenei are literally lead by Angels. Dwarves are conservative and steady. Night Elves are always right for some reason and always good. Gnomes are cute and curious. Worgen are simply pained, not heavily conflifcted. So on and so forth. The Alliance hasn't done anything "bad" because the very background for the Alliance is made to be good. Kill a thousand unarmed Orcs? No big deal, the Horde did that with the Alliance, we're totally nice. Alliance uses Demons? Big Deal, the Horde was enslaved and still uses Demons! Hell, right now we have "Alliance isn't so bad, Garrosh used Old God Blood!" By the very design of the Alliance since Warcraft 1, has been the good guys.

And the Second, more easier thing to mention is the fanbase. They cry and gnash and bitch about how the Alliance are "Too good" or "Too nice" But they'd change their toon instantly if they saw the Gnomes use radiation bombs to kill innocent people. Or Paladins not be Paragons of Good. They ant to be the good guys, but they want a bit of edge, They would totally not be the bad guys.

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Only one I've not heard of/am familiar with. And now I have something to go read up on.

It's a DnD Campaign setting, Brilliant if you enjoy a PnP session thats not at all serious and very very Pulp.

[RyanEX]

to add to that
If the Purge of Dalaran is not a "fist-pump moment" for the Alliance, then the Cataclysm leveling zones are not "fist-pump moments" for the Horde

I'd accept that if we had an updated Dalaran that reflected the Purge. Seeing as how we DON'T have one, while the horde have all the new zones to reflect Garrosh's successes I call BS.

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And the ACTION to nuke them was a very black and evil thing.

The RESULTS however were for the greater good, making the whole ideal a very strange shade of Gray.

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I had no idea you didn't play Warcraft 3.

Err WC3 followed the events of Thrall breaking out the orcs from the camps then DEMANDING, not asking not negotiating, DEMANDING that the Alliance cede land to the orcs or FACE A WAR THAT WOULD MAKE THE ACTIONS OF THE OLD HORDE PALE IN CAMPARISON.

If that's not swinging first, then I don't know what is.

[Deleted]

The Horde thing you said is the first thing I could truely agree upon with you, a very apt and correct about that.


For the Alliance though, let us be real. The Alliance SHOULD be a faction of Noble races struggling with an inner monstrosity. But there are two problems with this.

Firstly, the way the cosmic universe in Warcraft even works is, the alliance has the Moral high ground as a sort of metaphysical constant. Paladins always seem to be good guys under the Alliance, Draenei are literally lead by Angels. Dwarves are conservative and steady. Night Elves are always right for some reason and always good. Gnomes are cute and curious. Worgen are simply pained, not heavily conflifcted. So on and so forth. The Alliance hasn't done anything "bad" because the very background for the Alliance is made to be good. Kill a thousand unarmed Orcs? No big deal, the Horde did that with the Alliance, we're totally nice. Alliance uses Demons? Big Deal, the Horde was enslaved and still uses Demons! Hell, right now we have "Alliance isn't so bad, Garrosh used Old God Blood!" By the very design of the Alliance since Warcraft 1, has been the good guys.

And the Second, more easier thing to mention is the fanbase. They cry and gnash and bitch about how the Alliance are "Too good" or "Too nice" But they'd change their toon instantly if they saw the Gnomes use radiation bombs to kill innocent people. Or Paladins not be Paragons of Good. They ant to be the good guys, but they want a bit of edge, They would totally not be the bad guys.

I don't always agree with The Fiend, but when I do, it's with everything he says.

Certainly, there must remain an intrinsic and constant moral highground for the Alliance, if only because in this morally subjective setting there is some semblance of a standard. That said, I do think it would be worthwhile to throw an obstacle in the way of the Alliance's mission to be the paragons of justice and goodness from time to time. Like a 'Lawful or good' dilemma, or a Knight Templar teammate. They would of course overcome this, but struggle leads tension, tension leads to drama, drama leads to hate, hate leads to fear, fear leads to suffering, suffering leads to the dark side, the dark side leads to climax, climax leads to resolution, and resolution leads to catharsis. Or something.

It's a DnD Campaign setting, Brilliant if you enjoy a PnP session thats not at all serious and very very Pulp.

TvTropes summarises it beautifully; "Dungeons & Dragons meets Star Trek. It's like porn for nerds."

Also, something I didn't know until reading that article; its glorious innovative quirks are a product of some suit trying to force the designers to push out a standard fare sci fi setting to capture that market- the designers just loaded it with crazy bullshit and somehow passed it off to publication.

[RyanEX]

Tyrande was a fucking moron back in WCIII

Orcs are chopping our lumber? Attack them
Orcs are defending themselves? Bring in Cenarius
Cenarius is dead and there's Humans and Orcs attacking the Undead that are our enemy? They're all savages, an alliance with them would be stupid. ATTACK!
Burning Legion is invading? Better free my crazy brother-in-law so he can absorb a demonic artifact, do a bit of good and proceed to attempt to rip apart Northrend with another Demonic Artifact

Face it, Tyrande has always been an idiot. The only difference is that she would argue her dumb logic against Malfurion's points, and somehow sees wisdom in what Varian says. If they wanted to stay true to WCIII Tyrande they would have her suggest "Dumb Idea #5,739" have it get shot down by Varian, and then have her do it anyway. Her being dumb wasn't because they butchered her character, the only thing they butchered was her voice, Tyrande was just born dumb.

Doesn't speak much for Thrall's intelligence if he left Garrosh in charge even after his advisors told him it was a bad idea does it...

[Deleted]

Doesn't speak much for Thrall's intelligence if he left Garrosh in charge even after his advisors told him it was a bad idea does it...

Garrosh has been great for the Horde; we've seen expansion in territorial holdings and where there was once a major Alliance military port pumping Northwatch troops into the Barrens and Durotar, there is now a steaming crater.

Could be that Garrosh did exactly as anyone would have guessed he would do. Could be that's exactly why Thrall picked him for the job- the be the big bad meanie to do what needs to be done and then be removed for it as a scapegoat. When Vol'jin was all like 'wtf Thrall?!' in the Troll starting zone, Thrall said 'Dude, I hear you, but Garrosh is what the Horde needs right now. Trust me.' He practically winked. All paraphrasing, btw.

Garrosh is Thrall's patsy.

[Faroth]

Garrosh has been great for the Horde; we've seen expansion in territorial holdings and where there was once a major Alliance military port pumping Northwatch troops into the Barrens and Durotar, there is now a steaming crater.

Could be that Garrosh did exactly as anyone would have guessed he would do. Could be that's exactly why Thrall picked him for the job- the be the big bad meanie to do what needs to be done and then be removed for it as a scapegoat. When Vol'jin was all like 'wtf Thrall?!' in the Troll starting zone, Thrall said 'Dude, I hear you, but Garrosh is what the Horde needs right now. Trust me.' He practically winked. All paraphrasing, btw.

Garrosh is Thrall's patsy.

Garrosh wasn't the Warchief the Horde deserved, but the Warchief they needed?

[Deleted]

Garrosh wasn't the Warchief the Horde deserved, but the Warchief they needed?

He's the Warchief we needed to have.

Seriously though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power, then his 'leadership style' can't have been a surprise. Either Thrall is a loyal idiot, or a treacherous genius- the way he's acting all outraged and helping the rebellion.

[Faroth]

He's the Warchief we needed to have.

Seriously though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power, then his 'leadership style' can't have been a surprise. Either Thrall is a loyal idiot, or a treacherous genius- the way he's acting all outraged and helping the rebellion.

Maybe the Cataclsym simply hammered Thrall to the point of desperation and in that desperation, he turned to an orc he didn't fully understand.

Okay, okay, no more references, I promise.

[Dreknar20]

Tyrande was a fucking moron back in WCIII

being a hot-headed warrior priestess does not make her a moron, unless you expect all and every character to be perfect goody-two-shoes

[Deleted]

being a hot-headed warrior priestess does not make her a moron, unless you expect all and every character to be perfect goody-two-shoes

The decisions she makes make her a moron, not being a hot-headed warrior priestess.

[Dreknar20]

though, unless Thrall's plan was to calm Garrosh's roidrage down with more power

well 1 thing you have to remember is Thrall's initial plan was not to have Hellscream as a pernemant replacement - hence "Acting" Warchief

Which is why Thrall chose him in the first place, not for his political savy but for his fiery spirit and his love of the Horde. So that he can keep the spirits of the Horde high to remind them they are strong, so then Thrall can in the meantime figure out Wtf is wrong with the elements.
Needless to say, nothing in Azeroth goes according to plan

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The decisions she makes make her a moron, not being a hot-headed warrior priestess.

really? She meets Orcish/human/undead military advances into her lands with military action. Seems kinda typical for characters that are warrior-born

[Deleted]

well 1 thing you have to remember is Thrall's initial plan was not to have Hellscream as a pernemant replacement - hence "Acting" Warchief

Which is why Thrall chose him in the first place, not for his political savy but for his fiery spirit and his love of the Horde. So that he can keep the spirits of the Horde high to remind them they are strong, so then Thrall can in the meantime figure out Wtf is wrong with the elements.
Needless to say, nothing in Azeroth goes according to plan

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really? She meets Orcish/human/undead military advances into her lands with military action. Seems kinda typical for characters that are warrior-born

Dont make me count all the dumb stuff she did. At the top of the crown being killing friendlies to free an enemy out of his millenium prison, setting off the Wardens after him wich ultimately causes Maiev (a better character than Tyrande IMO) to go insane.

[Dreknar20]

At the top of the crown being killing friendlies to free an enemy out of his millenium prison, setting off the Wardens after him wich ultimately causes Maiev (a better character than Tyrande IMO) to go insane.

Illidian did help cripple the Legion/Scourge (more outa feelings for her then to his people but whatever). So it wasent completely stupid
And Maiev is just as hot headed as Tyrande is

[Wildberry]

being a hot-headed warrior priestess does not make her a moron, unless you expect all and every character to be perfect goody-two-shoes

Hot heads are fine but Jesus Christ, Garrosh Hellscream, whom everyone likes to paint as an idiot, outclasses her in not only hotheadedness but intelligence as well. I'm not asking for everyone to be goody-two-shoes "Go'el"-type characters, that'd be awful, I just want to correct people that still cling to this backwards idea that in WCIII Tyrande was some "Savage, Intelligent, Wise, Independant" Leader, it's like they talk about how she used to be, and haven't even played the damned campaign themselves!

[God8010]

And they just cant let the Alliance takeover the horde, as the game has to continue. Imagine the alliance would takeover all of horde land. What would people do in battlegrounds after that event occured?

And if you give back regions like HF the questing imbalance would go towards alliance. It's not all that easy. I think it is better to let the High King show his High-Kingness in this plot and to give <insert warchief here> the throne of ogrimmar.

And if we see the upcoming events Furion mentioned, horde and alliance need to coexists in some form to stand against the incoming challenge.

The strength of two is bigger than the strength of one.

Game of Thrones would disagree. "What's the bigger number, 5 or 1?" "1. 1 army. 1 leader."

[Dreknar20]

"Savage, Intelligent, Wise, Independant" Leader, it's like they talk about how she used to be, and haven't even played the damned campaign themselves!

so then going back to your examples.
She chooses to lead assualts against humans/orcs. Why is that stupid? They are outsiders and invaders afterall. She is also the High Priestess of the Sentinels, should it be a surprise she meets force with force.

[DFu4ever]

So, let's say the Alliance get the outcome they want. Orgimmar and Azshara are now occupied by the Alliance. The Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls are forced to retreat. Sounds great, although occupying that territory would require a lot of manpower and resources (since, you know, resources are a major issue for Org). But hey, newly conquered territory right?

Good luck holding it when the exiled military might of the Horde makes the smart move of heading to the Undercity. Their best play would be to move as much strength as possible to Forsaken territory and then begin the push south. I don't believe the Alliance would have the strength to counter a full Forsaken, Orc, Troll, Goblin, and BE invasion in the Eastern Kingdoms while at the same time holding Kalimdor (and likely putting up with Tauren raids or laying siege to their territory).

[Lumineus]

You're presuming Lor'themar wouldn't change allegiances and sabotage the Horde fleet. You think he wants all those uncultured mongrels loitering about his very doorstep? He barely tolerates Sylvanas as it is.

[Solzan Nemesis]

Dont make me count all the dumb stuff she did. At the top of the crown being killing friendlies to free an enemy out of his millenium prison, setting off the Wardens after him wich ultimately causes Maiev (a better character than Tyrande IMO) to go insane.

I never liked Maiev. I think letting him go was a good idea. Hell his brother should have never jailed him in the 1st place. At less Tyrande is around. The just killed Keal'thas off as a insane betrayer. Keal was a badass in WC3. He is one of reason I play blood elves in WoW.

You're presuming Lor'themar wouldn't change allegiances and sabotage the Horde fleet. You think he wants all those uncultured mongrels loitering about his very doorstep? He barely tolerates Sylvanas as it is.

I do not know what you are talking about *looks guiltily off to the side*.