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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Not invincible, but Wrathion's audio suggests that, while there would be heavy casualties and another year or so of fighting, Varian is in an advantageous position enough that he COULD defeat the Horde if he thought the price high enough. But there is a middle ground between doing nothing and trying to utterly destroy the horde. From what we've heard I even would go so far as to say it sounds like the Alliance will come out 'much stronger.'

    From what devs have said, he doesn't leave out of fear for his life, and the alliance is coming out MUCH stronger and united. How long would the Alliance stay united if Varian decided to leave the worgen and night elves out in the rain by not reclaiming eastern ashenvale and Gilneas? Especially with Gilneas, an entire nation forced to flee their homeland.

    That said, it's all speculation until we see that cut scene, but what information we DO have suggests that Varian was in a position where he could, over time and with losses, shatter the horde but decides to end the bloodshed there, but that doesn't mean they don't want their stolen lands back.
    Like I said, there's a whole nother patch coming up. We have no real idea what surprises await. Maybe that just isn't the time for it. Garrosh would probably have made the decision to kick the enemy while they were down and crush them while they had the opportunity. Maybe that's one thing that separates humans from crazy warmongering Orcs

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Rielthas View Post
    Like I said, there's a whole nother patch coming up. We have no real idea what surprises await. Maybe that just isn't the time for it. Garrosh would probably have made the decision to kick the enemy while they were down and crush them while they had the opportunity. Maybe that's one thing that separates humans from crazy warmongering Orcs
    Yeah. We don't know for sure yet, but what information we do have suggests that fear of the horde is far from Varian's motivation for withdrawing from Orgrimmar. I'm really curious to see how they manage that cutscene.

  3. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah. We don't know for sure yet, but what information we do have suggests that fear of the horde is far from Varian's motivation for withdrawing from Orgrimmar. I'm really curious to see how they manage that cutscene.
    The only thing I can think of is Varian somehow being shown a vision of the future, or whatever it is that's about to destroy the whole of Azeroth, whether it be the Legion or something worse.

    Cause the Varian I know would stab Hellscream through the head, decapitate it, then walk out of Orgrimmar holding it. He hates the Horde with a passion, so pussying out on the one chance he gets to unite the world and take vengeance on our enemy, it makes zero sense.

    He will definitely see something that scares even him, and that's bad.
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  4. #1144
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathstroke View Post
    The only thing I can think of is Varian somehow being shown a vision of the future, or whatever it is that's about to destroy the whole of Azeroth, whether it be the Legion or something worse.

    Cause the Varian I know would stab Hellscream through the head, decapitate it, then walk out of Orgrimmar holding it. He hates the Horde with a passion, so pussying out on the one chance he gets to unite the world and take vengeance on our enemy, it makes zero sense.

    He will definitely see something that scares even him, and that's bad.
    Varian is a lot more mellow now. They just finished a costly war with Arthas, then they had a bunch more casualties fighting Garrosh. It's entirely reasonable for him to want to avoid a prolonged war with the Horde that would result in many more casualties. Him teaming up with the rebellion to reduce Alliance casualties already shows his frame of mind in that regard.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 06:39 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  5. #1145
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    By stop acting like a child, and being a respectable member of the mmoc community. These are for discussions. Not calling people "crybabies".
    Tells others to stop behaving as a child and not calling people "crybabies"
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    I dont have an argument. You're complaining about people complaining. Crybaby.
    Calls someone else a crybaby a few posts after.... /facepalm
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  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmar View Post
    With how entitled, whiny, immature and moronic Alliance players have been this expansion regarding the lore I don't think there's anything constructive to say at this point. The sheer level of complaining over nothing this faction has done is embarrassing to watch and every concession Blizzard has made (the Horde falling apart, Garrosh turning pure evil, Varian turning around into a better person, sweeping victories against the Horde all over Pandaria) has not been good enough. Nothing would be good enough because you're all spoiled children. Blizzard could delete the entire Horde faction tomorrow and you'd consider it Horde favoritism.

    Here's what I have to say to Alliance players: shut up. No one cares what you think anymore, and you brought it on yourselves.
    As one Hordie to another, please stop talking.

    Its clear there is a Horde bias in the storywriting. And while the stage is set for Alliance superiority the story certainly isn't showing it currently - the Alliance side of things are tablescraps!

    No Horde player could honestly say they would enjoy fighting Varian by allying with Night Elves (after being insulted), then instead of a questchain with two battles you get to sneak around collecting supplies for the Alliance army, then essentially act as cannon fodder while the Alliance claims the kill for themselves and then the Horde just leaves Stormwind without incident. Its pretty ridiculous even from over where I'm looking at things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    There's a difference between being the altruistic good guys and being suckers.

    Not fighting to defend land that was yours up until Garrosh took over the Horde is being suckers, not good guys.
    Agreed. All the parts of the Alliance story I've seen and experienced have basically been the Alliance running around like headless chickens, with only the Wrynn family showing any competence at all at the expense of other characters. That's not fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcuffel View Post
    Silly Sandrox, there was PLENTY of Alliance crying back then.
    Not lorewise. Balance wise, yes. And Horde still have superior racials, that's mathematically proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    see, this is where the alliance really love to miss out details to suit there arguments.
    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    The whole "just following orders" is not bullshit

    There have been studies over it. Of what people would do when an authority figure tells them to - the Millgram experiment
    Yep. And they are still accountable for those actions. No amount of experiements will change that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Cairne stepped into that arena knowing it was a duel to the death, willing to kill Garrosh for crimes he didn't have proof of, and his accusations were actually false. All Garrosh did was defend his honor.
    Garrosh demanded it be a duel to the death in an attempt to scare Cairne off rather then to ask what Cairne was so angry about. He's also accountable for 'trusting' a known political enemy of Cairne, and for not calling off the duel when it was clear something was wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    he had a much cooler head compared to Cairne
    By instantly demanding it to be to the death? Uh huh.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Garrosh demanded it be a duel to the death in an attempt to scare Cairne off rather then to ask what Cairne was so angry about. He's also accountable for 'trusting' a known political enemy of Cairne, and for not calling off the duel when it was clear something was wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By instantly demanding it to be to the death? Uh huh.
    Can't turn down a Mak'gora challenge. If you could, that would defeat the purpose. Garrosh didn't escalate the terms of the duel because he was hotheaded, he did it to bluff Cairne down. Cairne had previously shown himself to be soft during the incident with Garrosh and the crippled Alliance fleet, so Garrosh underestimated Cairne's resolve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!
    There's references in the novel that Alliance PCs were there with Jaina just before the bombing.

    "You are in the scene. It says "Jaina turns to her five friends." And the Horde also has an adventure involving that. And that's you! I keep it very vague. I don't have genders or races or classes. It's just five people who are helping Jaina out. You get to be there. That's going to be pretty cool, and I think that may make people like Theramore a lot more. Because they're part of it now."
    --Christie Golden

    Blizzard bounced back and forth between when to set the Alliance scenario. They chose to make it after the bombing because they thought it made for the best gameplay. WoW is a game, gameplay is king.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Any chance of a complete redo of the theramore alliance side scenario to more closely match the events of the book?
    Theramore went through several revisions. The version that took place 'during' the book was less fun, and was scrapped. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Sometimes it's too obv how little you care about the story/lore of the game.
    We care ENORMOUSLY about the story and lore. But we care about gameplay more. (Source)
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:28 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Blizzard bounced back and forth between when to set the Alliance scenario. They chose to make it after the bombing because they thought it made for the best gameplay. WoW is a game, gameplay is king.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Any chance of a complete redo of the theramore alliance side scenario to more closely match the events of the book?
    Theramore went through several revisions. The version that took place 'during' the book was less fun, and was scrapped. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Sometimes it's too obv how little you care about the story/lore of the game.
    We care ENORMOUSLY about the story and lore. But we care about gameplay more. (Source)
    I'm not sure I believe that. The scenario we ended up with is an absolute turd both in gameplay and lore. How could something that matched the book be worse?

  9. #1149
    The whole balance thing is so stupid imo. I would love it if one of the factions was considerably inferior for an entire expansion, it would allow for much more interesting storylines. Right now, everything feels the same. Same number of cities, pretty much same forces, same number of races, and nobody will ever gain the upper hand due to gameplay reasons. As an Alliance player, I would LOVE to play some sort of a rebelion faction - let the horde destroy SW and the other cities, make it a war that the horde wins and Alliance are surviving in hiding and little villages. The possibilites for interesting quest chains would have been endless. Horde quest chains to find the remianings of the Alliance and destroy them, and Alliance quests to get resources and sabotage horde bases here and there to buy some time. Let the power shift between the two factions over time with actual in-game results to the quests, I'd love to see that.

    Instead, what Blizz has made is making the Alliance look silly. MoP was supposed to be all about the war, but where was the war in the game? I kept looking for it. The Ally first quest of the expansion looked so promising, so war-like (not sure about horde), but then it was all Panda, Mogu, Mogus, Klaxxi, more Mogu, trolls, Mogu, and some Mogu. Patch 5.1 showed bits of the war, but very little of it. I understand its tough to display a full scale war in gameplay, but something? Meh.

    Anyway, I just hope Varian's there when Garrosh dies. This has been due since the Ulduar patch trailer.
    Last edited by Blachshma; 2013-07-28 at 10:08 AM.

  10. #1150
    The Patient alexday14's Avatar
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    You think Vol'jin will just stand there with his pants down? He'll just allow Varian to walk up and to pick and choose what he wants?
    The Alliance weren't in it to finish the Horde or to even gain ground on them, they were there to kill our warchief and let the remaining Horde cut eachother to bits over who retakes the throne.

    Vol'jin has already got an agreement from the Alliance to not betray the Horde at the last moment, and I'd like to think Varian wants to stay true to his word. Besides, a good leader always plans for every possibility. I imagine he's already got an escape route out of Orgrimmar if things turn nasty with the Alliance... And Sylvanas on standby to do her thing if need be.


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  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except Baine warned Jaina so she could evacuate...
    and then he went and supported garrosh on his attack, so i fail to see how that absolves him of everything
    if he really gave a fuck about the murder of alliance people he would have told Garrosh to go fuck himself sooner, but he didn't because he doesn't
    Tirion was removed from leadership of the town he governed, by showing mercy to a horde. That doesnt mean he leaves the faction
    if someone throws you out of a faction you are by definition not part of that faction anymore
    These are alliance characters
    apart from Bolvar, no, not at all

  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    I'm not sure I believe that. The scenario we ended up with is an absolute turd both in gameplay and lore. How could something that matched the book be worse?
    The gameplay I was fine with. The problem was the story. Unless you read Tides of War, you have no idea:

    1. That Northwatch Hold and that other alliance base were curbstomped before Theramore. (Fort Triumph was it? I forget.)
    2. Why the horde have the focusing Iris, and why Garrosh attacked Theramore.
    3. The extent of the alliance casualties and the fact that several named npcs had come to defend the city. Including Rhonin, Marcus Jonathan, that naaru guy who gave the blood elf girl her shattered sun tabard, etc.
    4. Why and how Jaina became leader of the Kirin Tor.
    5. That it was all a part of Garrosh's larger plan to take all of Kalimdor.

    The gameplay itself, while not stellar, I could deal with. But blizz really dropped the bomb ball with this one by giving us zero context. Even on horde side you don't know much about it.

  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by Rielthas View Post
    Alliance coming out "stronger" does not imply "much stronger" or "invincible".
    No. It doesn't. Being able to defeat the Horde within another year or so and still emerge strong enough to face Wrathions BL prophecy does tend to imply that they are a fair bit stronger. As does the various comments and leaks from the game. That the Horde can be seen as requiring Varians agreement to select a new Warchief alone is damning.

    Once Garrosh is dead, the Horde will be quite happy to let the Alliance leave Orgrimarr peacefully. However, if the Alliance then turned on the entire Horde and tried to conquer or take back lands, do you think the Horde would just lay down and let them have it? No, there would be more conflict, more fighting, and more bloodshed.
    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people. All against an enemy who refused to restore their lands when given the chance to end the fight without the Alliance requiring a formal surrender.

    The Horde will not feel like they "owe" the Alliance anything just because they killed a common enemy together
    Then why expect the Alliance not to feel the same rather than press home their advantage and take back the lands stolen by the Horde?

    and decides to get while the getting is good, and escape with the military advantage that they gain from killing the Warchief of the Horde.
    What good is a military advantage if you don't use it? Varian is apparently in a position right now to get those lands back. He has the military advantage. Why should he back off? And what kind of Warchief will refuse to give them back? The kind who Varian must crush.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 03:55 PM.

  14. #1154
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The gameplay I was fine with. The problem was the story. Unless you read Tides of War, you have no idea:

    1. That Northwatch Hold and that other alliance base were curbstomped before Theramore. (Fort Triumph was it? I forget.)
    2. Why the horde have the focusing Iris, and why Garrosh attacked Theramore.
    3. The extent of the alliance casualties and the fact that several named npcs had come to defend the city. Including Rhonin, Marcus Jonathan, that naaru guy who gave the blood elf girl her shattered sun tabard, etc.
    4. Why and how Jaina became leader of the Kirin Tor.
    5. That it was all a part of Garrosh's larger plan to take all of Kalimdor.

    The gameplay itself, while not stellar, I could deal with. But blizz really dropped the bomb ball with this one by giving us zero context. Even on horde side you don't know much about it.
    People who did the scenario have been asking for context for what happened here. Those who read the book have had to explain it to them the full story.

    I don't care about there excuses, Christie Golden did a great job with this story, she even made me weep at little at the death of Kinndy, and Jaina's reaction to it. Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
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  15. #1155
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people.
    That is a rather big assumption, if the Alliance wins, why should they remain united? The Alliance might crumble the moment the different interests of the races clash with one another, today's friend could be tomorrow's enemy.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    People who did the scenario have been asking for context for what happened here. Those who read the book have had to explain it to them the full story.

    I don't care about there excuses, Christie Golden did a great job with this story, she even made me weep at little at the death of Kinndy, and Jaina's reaction to it. Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
    Yeah, the Theramore event would have been a thousand times better if they'd set it up a little. They didn't need to show us everything, or introduce book only characters like Kinndy, but a quest starting in SW where you learn that the Horde is matching on Theramore and that the Alliance is bringing in reinforcements would have been good. Show in game that Rhonin and the other named characters were there. Expand upon the destruction cutscene to show Rhonin pulling to bomb to the tower and pushing Jaina out, do some lipservice to her becoming the head of the Kirin Tor.

    Instead, nothing. There have been issues with book lore not being explained or shown enough in game for a long time but ToW strikes me as the most egregious example.

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Btw, Jaina's reaction to Kinndy's death is perhaps the most realistic and powerful moments in any of the warcraft books, on just how absolute despair took Jaina.
    And.. they didn't even fucking try to show this in the game. Thats deplorable.
    If Kinndy was a blood elf girl, I'd bet you money we'd get to, at the very LEAST, chat up her father in Dalarn about the death of his kid.
    Since her father is currently just hanging out in dalaran right now, and doesn't even seem aware that his kid is dead.
    That's why ally players are annoyed when people say "well, you guys took Dalaran" We Don't get to SEE the new Dalaran. It's the Dalaran from "three years ago, when arthas was still sitting on the frozen throne"
    Every. Single. Alliance "Win" Is not represented IN GAME.
    In lore, the horde should be pushed out of Ashenvale up to the kodo camp. That lake house should be phased back into NE hands after you let the furblogs free. Meastera's post should be phased to not be on FIRE, since you utterly destroy the horde siege engines there.
    Westfall should be phased to no longer be on fire after you finish H deadmines.
    Cata was rushed to where they scrapped the alliance intro to twilight highlands, where we're supposed to learn about Benedictus's betrayal.
    They slapped the Horde version of the red drake line onto alliance players, where the drakes are REALLY pissed at us for for no reason. As if we had joined up with the orcs who repeatedly forced their mom to have sex while they watched and beat off and afterwards took her kids to be warmounts.

    It's not that we're mad about losing, we're mad that they don't give the same time to OUR side of the quest-lines as they do to Horde side quests.
    The darkspear rebellion was a slap in the face to alliance players. One scenario where we go back to kill trolls that haven't been a problem since you were level ten, to give a little depth to one third of a faction leader. When horde get TWO lore heavy ones where they get to see and be part of something that's actually relevant to the storyline. We should have gotten a scenario like the horde version of theremore, where we DO something to earn the respect of the darkspear and they grudgingly accept our help in killing more orcs.
    Waving the "Horde side sucked in Vanilla" flag doesn't make what they are doing now acceptable. It shouldn't excuse them making the same mistake to the other side. If you KNOW how it feels to be the shafted side, why are you reveling in it happening again?

  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!
    Pretty much this. I mostly play Alliance, and I don't really care that Theramore is gone. I can talk to Zidormi to revert it back to quest or just visit, if I so wish. It wasn't presented well to the Alliance at all. I'm a lore fan, but it bugged me that pieces of the story were missing from the get-go on my side. Besides, the area could be used for a new city that could be better in the future.
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  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No. It doesn't. Being able to defeat the Horde within another year or so and still emerge strong enough to face Wrathions BL prophecy does tend to imply that they are a fair bit stronger. As does the various comments and leaks from the game. That the Horde can be seen as requiring Varians agreement to select a new Warchief alone is damning.

    And the Alliance will win. And they'd crush the Horde. And secure their future. And their lands. And ensure security for their people. All against an enemy who refused to restore their lands when given the chance to end the fight without the Alliance requiring a formal surrender.
    You missed the point of Wrathion's plan. It's not so that one side crushes the other side and is still strong enough to face the BL. It's that one side controls/subjugates the other side so that they have a united conglomerate force for the impending threat. Wrathion specifically says the Horde "CAVES". That means they surrender/submit to the Alliance, not that the Alliance crushes them.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #1160
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post

    I've never seen a single Alliance complaint about the attack on Theramore. That's potentially very interesting and adds dynamic to the story and the game. Even if Theramore fell and was occupied it would still exist, and it would have been taken honourably.

    What they complain about is the city being completely annihilated along with several lore characters, and there was nothing they could do about it. They never even got to see it happen!
    I do then agree with you on this fully. Not being alliance fan doesn't mean I don't appreciate some good lore around them, since its all part of wow's lore spectrum. And tides of war was a very good book, giving depth to Jaina and whats happening around her, her relationship with some characters, and the impact it brought to her upon there deaths and the destruction of her city and home.

    If it was on the horde side, say if Varian took a bomb to alterac and destroyed alterac valley, killing all the frostwolves, I would expect the same kind of depth and story in the game myself, I'd be outright demanding it to the point of wanting to punch the devs for not doing so.

    So in that I really am disappointed in how the devs handled this, and now there really weak, flimsy excuse of 'we need to focus more on gameplay then story'... THEY DID A WHOLE ZONE IN ULDUM TO A FUCKING INDIANA JONES PARODY BUT CAN'T GET THERE OWN REAL LORE DOWN, WTF ARE THEY DOING?.
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