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  1. #1161
    I don't think there is much to debate anymore. The Story of the Last Two Expansions is very badly written. So badly written that Blizzard is now at half his playerbase. Yes one of the reasons half the player base stopped playing warcraft is because of it's shitty story. I had a lot of friends who stopped playing because simply they didn't liked how they presented the Alliance.

  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Did you honestly expect them to revamp old zones AGAIN?

    It was very clear from the beginning that we just eliminate the Kor'kron threat and after that it'll be business as usual.



    We did gain something. We exchanged a "raawr human smash!" Gladiator with a proper King worth respecting... and gained a "whackjob soon to be raidboss" Archmage on the side.
    Realistically, they're going to *HAVE* to revamp the old zones before too long. They made an incredibly short-sighted decision to make the old zones revolve around Deathwing and the events of Cataclysm, which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work. To be honest, it struck me as a pretty amateur mistake from the very moment the showed off the new world, unless they went into it knowing that they would have to revamp it again later.

    I suspect they probably learn towards the latter. Since we're clearly going to be fighting the Legion again at some point (presumably the next expansion), I wouldn't be surprised if they revamped the world again to include more Legion-borne threats.

    In any case, this is indeed a completely ridiculous outcome. They could resolve these issues so very easily, if they wanted. Give Gilneas back to the Alliance (leave the Battleground as a skirmish on the outskirts, removed from Lore), change Ashenvale to be a recovering province (merely requires changing the quests up a bit, perhaps sending Horde players elsewhere for questing), or any number of other concessions that could be made.

    I'll be honest, I've never been one to make snap-judgement on "Oh, Blizzard loves the Horde soooooo much", but this just feels really, really weak.

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That is a rather big assumption, if the Alliance wins, why should they remain united? The Alliance might crumble the moment the different interests of the races clash with one another, today's friend could be tomorrow's enemy.
    They might. But the Horde would still be crushed. And Varian simply walking away **IS** going to create issues because the NElfs, Lordaeranians, Worgen etc are going to want their lands back, are going to want peace, are going to want security and so on. They aren't going to be too happy with Varian simply ignoring their interests.

    Varians needs a VERY good reason to simply walk away. The warm glow of moral superiority isn't good enough. Nor, sadly, would the excuse of ending the bloodshed. The Horde still occupies Alliance lands and if the new Warchief won't give them up, he'll be the type of Warchief Varian and the Alliance will need to fight anyway.

    Put simply - after all the Alliance has gone through, them simply gifting their lands to the Horde is a ridiculous ending. Any of their lands. So for this story to have any meaningful ending, the Alliance either need a VERY good reason to do so or they need to get their lands back. And not just a token....all of their lands. If the war is ending with the Alliance stronger, they cannot just walk away.

    Anything less simply the Alliance being portrayed as suckers, losers, idiots and other less polite words. That's bad for Alliance players, that's bad for horde players, that's even bad for the game. I can't be the only one to see friends leave and give the Alliance story as one reason - they just don't feel as involved in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Realistically, they're going to *HAVE* to revamp the old zones before too long. They made an incredibly short-sighted decision to make the old zones revolve around Deathwing and the events of Cataclysm, which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work. To be honest, it struck me as a pretty amateur mistake from the very moment the showed off the new world, unless they went into it knowing that they would have to revamp it again later.

    I suspect they probably learn towards the latter. Since we're clearly going to be fighting the Legion again at some point (presumably the next expansion), I wouldn't be surprised if they revamped the world again to include more Legion-borne threats.
    No. If they were going to go down the unlikely road towards yet another revamp, what they need to do is set everything at Year 0. Vanilla. Have everything work through as it did before, but upgrade and streamline the experience as necessary. At L60, have the world event at the Portal. At L70, have the Zombie invasion. At L80. Have the Elemental invasion. L80-L85 will have the post-Cata questlines and stories. At 85, the fall of Theramore. L85-L90 will be Pandaria.

    Simply make everything fit together in a storyline that makes sense and keeps the stories in Vanilla that were good. Unfortunately, fixing what went wrong with Cata would require too much work and offer too little return to justify the investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You missed the point of Wrathion's plan. It's not so that one side crushes the other side and is still strong enough to face the BL. It's that one side controls/subjugates the other side so that they have a united conglomerate force for the impending threat. Wrathion specifically says the Horde "CAVES". That means they surrender/submit to the Alliance, not that the Alliance crushes them.
    I fail to see the meaningful difference as far as this debate is concerned.

    The Horde ends up losing. And they lose because after the SoO, the Alliance is meaningfully stronger. To the point they take TB and the Hordes "caves". As in surrenders.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 07:13 PM.

  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I fail to see the meaningful difference as far as this debate is concerned.

    The Horde ends up losing. And they lose because after the SoO, the Alliance is meaningfully stronger. To the point they take TB and the Hordes "caves". As in surrenders.
    There is a significant difference between crushing your opponent and having them give up. Crushing implies they so weak they can't fight back. Giving up means they still have strength to fight, the just don't have the will to continue. Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 07:30 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  5. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There is a significant difference between crushing your opponent and having them give up. Crushing implies they so weak they can't fight back. Giving up means they still have strength to fight, the just don't have the will to continue. Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    The quote "Will the Alliance be content with overthrowing a despot, or will they crush the Horde at one of the most vulnerable points in its history?" is why the term "crush" has started to be used. You're right - it might be hyperbole, but it still seems to agree with the information we've been given about the relative strength and power of the factions after SoO. Its also easier and quicker to type and gets across the meaning I want even if it isn't 100% accurate - the Alliance appears to be stronger to the point that their victory doesn't appear to be subjet to reasonable doubt. That might not be the case when 5.4 comes out, but for now it'll do.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-28 at 08:15 PM.

  6. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Wrathion's plans require that the losing side still be strong enough to contribute in the fight against the Legion. So when Wrathion talks about the Alliance winning the war, he's not talking about the Horde being crushed.
    Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
    So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The quote "Will the Alliance be content with overthrowing a despot, or will they crush the Horde at one of the most vulnerable points in its history?" is why the term "crush" has started to be used. Your right it might be hyperbole, but it still seems to agree with the information we've been given about the relative sterngth and power of the factions after SoO.
    Maybe crush their spirit.

    EDIT: That isn't Wrathion talking. That's from the patch description page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
    So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.
    Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 10:23 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  8. #1168
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    Honestly the best part about being a horde isn't the badass races or the cool abilities or even the characters and lore itself. It's having an opponent with such a massive inferiority complex that no matter what happens horde is always bigger. That's right guys. It is bigger.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.
    His actions/talking says otherwise

    5.1 had him having us going out wrecking the other faction to prove to him our respective faction deserved to win the war.
    And he is pissed that Varian let the Horde be rather than destroying them
    He wanted Azeroth to be united under the banners of the Alliance, not still have 2 seperate, rivial factions
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Really? Seems to me Wrathion wanted the Alliance to win outright.
    So that all of Azeroth would be united under one banner, one faction.
    From Wrathion quotes we can clearly see that he wanted Varian Wrynn to lead whole Azeroth under one Banner... Alliance banner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Yes, he wants the war to end and everyone to be united. That doesn't mean he wants the losing side to be completely destroyed. He doesn't actually care who does it. He was betting on Garrosh until he turned the Horde against himself.
    Source, please.

  11. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    which immediately put a time-stamp on all of their work.
    which leveling zones dont have that problem?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #1172
    What will likely happen is another united front against the Legion with some inter-faction squabbles. It's kind of like the whole protect-the-dark-portal-opening thing. The conflict between orcs and humans made them strong enough to face the Legion at Hyjal. Whereas without the orcs, the humans would have decimated each other in their fight for dominance. Having the Horde and Alliance go at each other without full conquest-mode makes both sides stronger (arms race). With one side completely dominating, they end up being weaker because of the high cost to both sides.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Source, please.
    "What? Yes, I was backing the Alliance. I thought Hellscream's victory was assured before he turned half of his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance. Oh, don't act so surprised. I'm a Black Dragon, my loyalties are my own."
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:23 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  13. #1173

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    His actions/talking says otherwise

    5.1 had him having us going out wrecking the other faction to prove to him our respective faction deserved to win the war.
    And he is pissed that Varian let the Horde be rather than destroying them
    He wanted Azeroth to be united under the banners of the Alliance, not still have 2 seperate, rivial factions
    Wrathion was pissed that Varian let them have another warchief instead of subjugating them into the Alliance. He didn't care which side emerged dominant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Thank you, completely forgot about this.

    But if Garrosh "won" wouldn't he wipe Alliance?
    Not if they submitted to his rule. Garrosh's whole reason for wanting to conquer the Alliance was to ensure the dominance of his people so they weren't living in squalor while the Alliance hoarded all the natural resources. Garrosh doesn't target civilians (as confirmed by Kosak), so he's not seeking to wipe them off the face of the planet.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:08 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  15. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    (Not saying it makes a lot of sense, but that's the canonical reason).
    why does that not make sense?
    wITHOUT Orcs to fight humans will just fight each other

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Wrathion was pissed that Varian let them have another warchief instead of subjugating them into the Alliance. He didn't care which side emerged dominant.
    Which is what I was getting at.
    Wrathion didnt want peace between the 2 factions. He wanted one sole victor to remain on Azeroth, so then there would only be 1 faction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    But if Garrosh "won" wouldn't he wipe Alliance?
    Probably force the Night Elves out of Kalimdor, either by death or exodous.
    And stomp on the rest of the Alliance good enough to ensure they would never be a major threat
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #1176
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    why does that not make sense?
    wITHOUT Orcs to fight humans will just fight each other

    - - - Updated - - -


    Which is what I was getting at.
    Wrathion didnt want peace between the 2 factions. He wanted one sole victor to remain on Azeroth, so then there would only be 1 faction.
    Yes, that's what Wrathion wants. It's what Wrathion thinks would be best. But that doesn't mean it is what would actually be best. The whole CoT thing shows that the combined combat power of Azeroth is stronger because of the Horde/Alliance conflict remaining close to a stalemate.

    Also, we're obviously still going to defeat the Legion despite being split into separate factions because plot and gameplay. So Wrathion is wrong in his opinion on this by necessity.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:25 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  17. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    But that doesn't mean it is what would actually be best.
    the other option has its own flaws too though.
    Conflict flaring up is much more likely between 2 factions who consider themselves rivals or even downright hated enemies than over a single united faction.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    the other option has its own flaws too though.
    Conflict flaring up is much more likely between 2 factions who consider themselves rivals or even downright hated enemies than over a single united faction.
    That conflict can also breed new and better weapons which can then be turned against the Legion. If everything is peaceful, people become complacent and disarmament occurs. Like what happened with the Alliance before the 3rd War and it nearly destroyed them.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 08:19 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That conflict can also breed new and better weapons which can then be turned against the Legion.
    Preparing and training to destroy each other, but no yet trying to destroy each other.
    Thats a delicate balanace to maintain
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Preparing and training to destroy each other, but no yet trying to destroy each other.
    Thats a delicate balanace to maintain
    So long as they keep it to skirmishes like they have through much of WoW, it's not going to really be a problem. When one side goes full derp conquest mode like Garrosh did (and what Wrathion wants), that's when both sides get severely depleted.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

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