1. #1

    Subtlety in PvE?

    I know I'm going to get a lot of LOL don't play PvP specs in PvE, kind of like Marks Hunters, but I'm just wondering why exactly the high-end raiders seem to shun playing Subtlety. There are less than 10 Sub logs total on Ra-Den, between 10H and 25H. Is there something specific Assassination gets that just makes it better in PvE content? I know, from what little I've tried, that the rotation is extremely daunting and punishing, but so is Feral's, and people seem to be able to play it.

  2. #2
    The difficulty of the sub rotation is overstated. Sub suffers from poor target switching (partially fixed by glyph of hemo veins in 5.4), poor low target AoE/cleave, positional requirements and a general lack of a solid dps niche.

    For LFR and normal mode content sub should be just fine but for heroic progression the above mentioned weaknesses are problematic.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    The difficulty of the sub rotation is overstated. Sub suffers from poor target switching (partially fixed by glyph of hemo veins in 5.4), poor low target AoE/cleave, positional requirements and a general lack of a solid dps niche.
    In short, it lacks any advantages but a lead in burst AoE (yay?). If an easier, less-punished spec with the same gear does more damage, any serious heroic raider wouldn't be caught dead using an inferior spec.

    I'd like to see Sub be really useful (have a niche) in PvE again - you'll that discussed in some threads here - but it just has no place right now.

  4. #4
    I'm not sure sub does lead in burst AoE, I did a toy comparison a few months back vs. assassination and saw that assassination was at least as good in that one example. I don't think anyone has done a systematic analysis of rogue AoE in a variety of situations.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  5. #5
    and where exactly is aoe needed in this Tier apart from horridon and tortos if your guild decide to kill the bats where at this time even if we would have an amaizing improved AOE we wont be able to hold on to locks or ele shamans , so like others mentioned above Sub just has no place right now in pve , you do to much for way less for example Assassination ( sad but true )

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    Sub suffers from poor target switching
    Is it really worse off than the other two specs? Both Mutilate and Sub just need to put Rupture up as soon as possible; what makes Sub worse at that? If anything, the ability to build combo points while you move to the new target via HaT makes it fairly easy. I haven't played Combat in a long time, does Bandit's Guile still make Combat target switching akin to eating soup with a fork? Subtlety and Assassination seem exactly the same to me, with the only difference being which has better CP generation - Subtlety I presume.

    edit: Not to mention the fact that you can postpone your Shadow Dance/Vanish so that you can open with Ambush on the new target, for an incredibly strong opening.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    Is it really worse off than the other two specs? Both Mutilate and Sub just need to put Rupture up as soon as possible; what makes Sub worse at that? If anything, the ability to build combo points while you move to the new target via HaT makes it fairly easy. I haven't played Combat in a long time, does Bandit's Guile still make Combat target switching akin to eating soup with a fork? Subtlety and Assassination seem exactly the same to me, with the only difference being which has better CP generation - Subtlety I presume.
    A decent portion of the import of having Rupture up for assassination is to gain energy from venomous wounds. Unless the old target is dead (hey, full energy bar!), you're still getting that energy - and will get even more once you've got rupture on 2 targets. Sub, on the other hand, does less damage through all abilities until rupture's up, and if the add is short-lived, doesn't get a kickback when it dies.

    Combat's Bandit Guile woes were fixed. They can hot-swap easily now; only CP and RvS don't travel.

    Delaying a CD for more single-target burst can be done, true, but I can't think of a time it'd be worth doing unless, like, you're sub for council and you've got SERIOUS problems with empowered Priestess.

  8. #8
    The best example of Sub's target swapping woes this tier is durumu during color phases. You have to alternate between the boss and 3 adds one at a time (6 swaps) in a 30-40 second period. None of these adds live longer than 6-8 seconds. Here assassination can dump CPs on the boss into a rolling rupture and then drop a low point rupture+envenom onto the add. Sub by contrast needs to juggle low cp ruptures on the boss plus getting them up on all three targets which will almost certainly be short lived.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  9. #9
    And t hat's why binding such a large part of the damage of a spec directly into one buff (or debuff) is a bad idea. VW (or the disease mechanic of DKS) is far more resilient and flavourful.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  10. #10
    They are bringing in the Hemo glyph to let SV be activated by Hemo, which will help a lot with switching. But otherwise, I entirely agree with the above and it is too clunky, and too high risk when it comes to positional requirements and/or dps dropping due to movement during cds.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    energy from venomous wounds.
    I knew I was forgetting something. When DPS on the add is what matters (think Cho'Gall from Bastion of Twilight), I think that both specs are close enough that "Subtlety can't target switch" no longer holds water. Both have benefits there (HaT/possibly Shadow Dance or Vanish; and energy from the old Rupture ticks). Subtlety definitely isn't good on lots of low-hp adds, but I think that's supposed to be its anti-niche by design when you look at Find Weakness. Not even the SV change will help that since the other specs actually have benefits in that situation.

    I don't really think the Hemo change will help that much with hard switching (ie. switching to a high-hp add once a minute). If we ignore Redirect, you can still have Rupture as your first or second GCD on the add because of HaT. 20% of a Backstab and 1 second of auto attacks is minuscule. It helps with soft swaps at least, but you still won't play Subtlety on a fight like that anyway.
    Last edited by Synexlol; 2013-07-18 at 12:51 PM.

  12. #12
    not to mention, the positional requirements for backstab/ambush.

    Sometimes you gotta face the boss... and that hurts dps even further.

    This doesn't stop me from playing Sub on non-progression fights. I still like its over the other two specs, but I know I can play mut a lot easier and it provides more dps. Its a lot easier to mess up a sub rotation, than a mut rotation (or combat). For me at least.

  13. #13
    Dryaan has run for us recording it a full 13/13 HM ToT run as sub. While the dps was lower than Assa or Combat, it wasn't that bad to say "sub isn't viable", or at least, it's not only about raw damage.

    The basic premise is "why i should/can use sub for raiding?" - the answer is "there is no reason to use it at all". It doesn't bring significant buffs/debuffs to the raid, it doesn't deal signifcant more damage, you have more possibilities to screw up.

    Sub isn't that bad; it's the fact that Combat and Assa are just better performing so there's no need for sub.
    ColdUI
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  14. #14
    Sub is fine for normal/LFR/farm bosses. Sin will just pull more damage, but some people understandably hate it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Sub is fine for normal/LFR/farm bosses. Sin will just pull more damage, but some people understandably hate it.
    That's the main thing. Assassination doesn't feel like a Rogue; Sub has the right kind of cloak-and-dagger feel. In SWToR there was the same kind of divide between the different specs of the DPS Operative; you had Lethality which was a heavy DoT spec with decent single-target sustain, and then you had what we fondly called the "stabby" spec which could do excellent burst from stealth, but fell behind in sustained damage in PvE compared to Lethality. The result was that no one played DPS Operatives in PvE, because the viable spec wasn't fun and the fun spec wasn't viable.

  16. #16
    It seems as though ass. will still reign supreme come 5.4, although I do miss my combat from BC.

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