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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    This is the third time the Orcs and humans have warred.
    When the Romans fought the Carthaginians for the third time they decided to not show them any more mercy. They razed Carthage to the ground and put the entire populace to the sword or slavery and then sowed salt into the ground so plants wouldn't grow on the land for a hundred years and they also seized all Carthaginian territory.

    Carthage as a nation ceased to exist overnight.

    Considering what the Orcs have done to humanity in the past 30 years, I think its time for the Alliance to go Scipio on their asses and put them into the fossil record. Or at least exile them back to Outlands.

    Sometimes you have an enemy that won't stay down unless you put them in the ground.
    Just ignore how the Orcs defended Azeroth from the Legion and the Scourge and Deathwing. And the most recent conflict started because they were starving to death in the desert after the Cataclysm and the Alliance fought tooth and nail to keep resources necessary for survival out of the Horde's hands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Not true. The Alliance was planning to siege Orgrimmar before they even knew Vol'jin was still alive and doing his rebellion. It was the Alliance that approached Vol'jin in order to use him to crack open Orgrimmar.
    Varian always knew there were dissenters within the Horde from his spies. All the way back when he attacked Orgrimmar after Theramore. He was counting on them to help overthrow Garrosh in the chaos of that invasion. So it's not surprising he would try to gain Vol'jin's help.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-18 at 06:38 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    They're spying on Garrosh with the explicit intent to attack Orgrimmar and end the war. Would there be massive casualties if the Alliance went alone? Yes, that's why they use Vol'jin, but that doesn't mean they didn't intend to attack before they learned about his rebellion. Nor does it mean that the eastern kingdoms are utterly without defenses. You're also assuming that the blood elves have any reason to push further south in the eastern kingdoms, and that Sylvannas can spread her own forces infinitely to keep on conquoriing unoposed.
    So you're basically repeating what I said? The point is, SoO is happening like it is & when it is because of Vol'jin. Had Vol'jin not asked for help, had he not been already been able to give the Alliance an entry point to launch from, the Alliance would still be doing nothing more than spying on Garrosh.

    As for the rest... Hypothetically, if the Alliance were to seize Orgrimmar & risk a full-on war with the Horde whom they're fighting WITH in Org, the Blood Elves & Forsaken would obviously become involved. They would have two basic options: sail West and meet the Alliance at Org or march straight South. Either way, the required amount of Alliance forces it would take to hold a battered and largely broken down Org falling the siege and removal of Garrosh against both the Tauren & Goblins (who live nearby) would be tremendous & considering all Alliance forces (even the Night Elves) essentially have to sail there and are bottle-necked all over the place, holding Org would be a disaster for the Alliance. If the Blood Elves & Forsaken did march South, the Alliance would be in A LOT of trouble. Sylvannas WANTS some opposition. Her best bet would be to cause mass casualties via plague & whatever and use the fallen Alliance as soldiers for the Forsaken / Horde via her Val'kyr.

    Just the logistics the Alliance would need to overcome to occupy & hold Org would basically put the Horde & Alliance on even footing (perhaps even in Horde favor).
    Last edited by xixixviixiiii; 2013-07-18 at 05:53 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by seiton View Post
    What nation would give their enemies an opportunity to gain in strength and gain power again? .
    USA ?

    On a, maybe not serious note, maybe Varian will left a navy of ships near to Ogrimmar, and claim that the Alliance defeated Garosh in the name of freedom and democracy.... and then take all the oil from Durotar and the Barrens.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by seiton View Post
    Whatever, my comment still stands.
    The orcs invaded under the influence of Kil'Jaeden. And the Blackrock clan is the only clan encroaching on Human land, and the Blackrock's aren't even friendly with the New Horde. The Blackrock's Dark Horde is the one thats stirring all the trouble.

    The New Horde's Orcs just have outposts and towns scattered around the world to keep an eye on the situation.
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Etrigan View Post
    The battle will have a ton of NPC's going at it, as well as all of the players (prepare for lagfest). At the end of the battle, the party is crashed by some news of the new threat to Azeroth (expansion, let's assume Burning Legion). Both factions NEED to call it truths for the moment to build back their strength against the cataclysmic events to come.
    And whom would that serve ? The horde would be pissed that they are occupied by the alliance and the alliance would whine that they lose again against the horde.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    So you're basically repeating what I said? The point is, SoO is happening like it is & when it is because of Vol'jin. Had Vol'jin not asked for help, had he not been already been able to give the Alliance an entry point to launch from, the Alliance would still be doing nothing more than spying on Garrosh.

    As for the rest... Hypothetically, if the Alliance were to seize Orgrimmar & risk a full-on war with the Horde whom they're fighting WITH in Org, the Blood Elves & Forsaken would obviously become involved. They would have two basic options: sail West and meet the Alliance at Org or march straight South. Either way, the required amount of Alliance forces it would take to hold a battered and largely broken down Org falling the siege and removal of Garrosh against both the Tauren & Goblins (who live nearby) would be tremendous & considering all Alliance forces (even the Night Elves) essentially have to sail there and are bottle-necked all over the place, holding Org would be a disaster for the Alliance. If the Blood Elves & Forsaken did march South, the Alliance would be in A LOT of trouble. Sylvannas WANTS some opposition. Her best bet would be to cause mass casualties via plague & whatever and use the fallen Alliance as soldiers for the Forsaken / Horde via her Val'kyr.

    Just the logistics the Alliance would need to overcome to occupy & hold Org would basically put the Horde & Alliance on even footing (perhaps even in Horde favor).
    Why would Lor'themar feel a need to defend the Horde? He hates Garrosh and would have left it if not for the purge of Dalaran. You say Sylvannas wants opposition, and yet she was opposed to the siege of Theramore because she was afraid it would bring retaliation against her people.

    Yes, Vol'jin is critical to how the siege is going down, but so is the Alliance. The horde rebellion couldn't do this on their own, and his rebellion wouldn't have lasted long enough for belf/forsaken/tauren reinforcements to arrive if not for alliance aide. So he's only able to do his thing because of Alliance help.

  7. #187
    I guess the OP decided to skip over all of the 5.3 story where vol'jin allows the alliance to help. You really think the weak alliance would be able to siege orgrimmar alone with the trolls, goblins, tauren all in the area?

  8. #188
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    The main enemy of the Siege of Orgrimmar raid instance is The True Horde, not the playable horde. It's all in the dungeon journal and voiceovers.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    Dude, the lore has been bad since Cataclysm launched. And it's honestly only getting worse. The mere fact that they focused an entire expansion's worth of content around panda land speaks volumes of the lore Blizzard is baking over at their HQ. Alot of people, including myself, stopped giving two shits about the lore after we killed the Lich King, because all meaningful lore died with him. Ever since then, it's just been kind of a random hodge podge of whatever the hell Blizzard can come up with and throw into the game. I even stopped reading the Warcraft books because the lore is getting so bad and fucked up at this point (and this is someone who had read every single Warcraft book since the original #1, #2, and #3 Warcraft books had come out).
    Not really. MoP has been the highest point in WoW lore wise. Vanilla had next to no story,BC didn't have much story that ultimately build us up to Illidan. Illidan hardly participated in quests too. WotLK basically ruined the scourge's lore. We all know how Cata went. It started good though. such a waste of potential.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by seiton View Post
    What nation would give their enemies an opportunity to gain in strength and gain power again?
    *Punts you to the ground*
    "A winner!"
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    So you're basically repeating what I said? The point is, SoO is happening like it is & when it is because of Vol'jin. Had Vol'jin not asked for help, had he not been already been able to give the Alliance an entry point to launch from, the Alliance would still be doing nothing more than spying on Garrosh.

    As for the rest... Hypothetically, if the Alliance were to seize Orgrimmar & risk a full-on war with the Horde whom they're fighting WITH in Org, the Blood Elves & Forsaken would obviously become involved. They would have two basic options: sail West and meet the Alliance at Org or march straight South. Either way, the required amount of Alliance forces it would take to hold a battered and largely broken down Org falling the siege and removal of Garrosh against both the Tauren & Goblins (who live nearby) would be tremendous & considering all Alliance forces (even the Night Elves) essentially have to sail there and are bottle-necked all over the place, holding Org would be a disaster for the Alliance. If the Blood Elves & Forsaken did march South, the Alliance would be in A LOT of trouble. Sylvannas WANTS some opposition. Her best bet would be to cause mass casualties via plague & whatever and use the fallen Alliance as soldiers for the Forsaken / Horde via her Val'kyr.

    Just the logistics the Alliance would need to overcome to occupy & hold Org would basically put the Horde & Alliance on even footing (perhaps even in Horde favor).
    AA wouldn't spy forever even without Vol'jin's help. Varian's intention was to finish this in the first place. Vol'jin's help is a bonus. You also assumed that other horde races's forces are massive. They are not and that's why they are powerless agianst Garrosh in the first place. The rebel is pathetically weak against Garrosh. This is why Wrathion said that Varian was stupid. The whole point of this situation is for Varian to show his class.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    AA wouldn't spy forever even without Vol'jin's help. Varian's intention was to finish this in the first place. Vol'jin's help is a bonus. You also assumed that other horde races's forces are massive. They are not and that's why they are powerless agianst Garrosh in the first place. The rebel is pathetically weak against Garrosh. This is why Wrathion said that Varian was stupid. The whole point of this situation is for Varian to show his class.
    We don't know how strong the full rebellion is. All we know is that in 5.3 the rebellion was just the Trolls and they alone were weak, the others hadn't physically joined them yet.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Am I the only one to think Alliance "fans" like the OP really want Varian to be a bloodthirsty warmonger just like Garrosh?
    I am actually pro-Horde, but I am just trying to think of how this work logically. If the alliance dethrones our warchief, what could stop them from taking over a broken and divided Horde?

  14. #194
    There are only two outcomes of SoO that I would find acceptable, and I strongly suspect none of them will happen at this point.

    Either the Alliance will control the horde, perhaps throguh a puppet warchief. This will lead to more conflicts between the two factions in the future.
    Or the Alliance lets the Horde control themselves, the two factions start cooperating with eachother and become one faction in about the timeframe of the next expansion.

    Anything else will simply be a total bullshit cop-out because they have written themselves into a corner. Varian giving the horde the chance to get a new warchief and then the hostilities between the two factions continuing would be such a facepalm moment that I wouldn't know if I should cry or laugh.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by seiton View Post
    I am actually pro-Horde, but I am just trying to think of how this work logically. If the alliance dethrones our warchief, what could stop them from taking over a broken and divided Horde?
    According to GC, Varian and Jaina will argue about this point and I assume that Varian wins the argument.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by seiton View Post
    I am actually pro-Horde, but I am just trying to think of how this work logically. If the alliance dethrones our warchief, what could stop them from taking over a broken and divided Horde?
    The Horde isn't broken and divided. The rebellion is unified (by 5.4) and consists of most of the Horde political factions. The Alliance isn't going in and conquering the Horde, they are going in with the Horde and overthrowing Garrosh.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    According to GC, Varian and Jaina will argue about this point and I assume that Varian wins the argument.
    So Siege of Stormwind for Jaina to overthrow Varian in 6.4.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    According to GC, Varian and Jaina will argue about this point and I assume that Varian wins the argument.
    Where is Kalecgos? The Kirin Tor gave him one job in Tides of War, keep Jaina from becoming vengeful and dark, and he's doing a terrible job.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-18 at 07:37 PM. Reason: typo
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Where is Kaelcgos? The Kirin Tor gave him one job in Tides of War, keep Jaina from becoming vengeful and dark, and he's doing a terrible job.
    To be fair, Kaelcgos is terrible with anything he does.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Horde isn't broken and divided. The rebellion is unified (by 5.4) and consists of most of the Horde political factions. The Alliance isn't going in and conquering the Horde, they are going in with the Horde and overthrowing Garrosh.
    the sources we have now are pointing in the direction that Varian is the one who is determining the horde's fate. It's not that if he could but it's more like if he will.

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