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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylphen View Post
    It's not a resource… yet. I wouldn't put it past them to turn it into one at some point (which is why I said "in a future patch", since it would be too big of a change right now). And it would be a shame, really. It's a bland design with little to no connection to old Frost talents or gameplay, unlike Ignite or Mana Adept.
    I suspect that with 6.0 they will move mages to a resource system, Blizzard likes that in classes as evidenced by how slowly but surely they have been moving classes to that design.

    ****************

    As to new frost mastery...

    - they need to scale it better, currently it is less damage than live mastery
    - they need to help BF FFB damage, it took a huge hit
    - Water elemental icicles need to move to the water elemental or simply have mastery bump water bolt damage
    - a separate spell to fire Icicle and FoF Ice Lances generate Icicles, change Ice Lance scaling as appropriate
    - Alter Time rewind of stack should add to the Icicle stack, as in AT ends and we have a 3 stack, and when we hit Alter Time we had a 5 stack, then we have 8 icicles, with 3 auto fired on AT expiration. Aka we should not lose Icicles generated during AT

    If they did those things, then mastery can compete with haste, we don't have Water Bolt Icicles watering down the Icicle stack, and we have our three main spells contributing to Icicle generation

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post

    - Alter Time rewind of stack should add to the Icicle stack, as in AT ends and we have a 3 stack, and when we hit Alter Time we had a 5 stack, then we have 8 icicles, with 3 auto fired on AT expiration. Aka we should not lose Icicles generated during AT
    If you don't use FoF or BF procs generated during AT you loose them on live currently....Why do you think Icicle stack should treated any differently??

  3. #263
    It's the first implementation. Those are never correctly balanced.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Everyone will need to face facts: Frost being a burst-only spec is DEAD AND GONE.
    Omg, can't believe this is happening again. I just freaking level'd my frost mage alt to 90 to have some pvp funsies and its getting nerfed...
    Same happened with my monk, I got to play my healer monk 1 week before the were nerfed to the ground...

    Really hope this isn't true, or at least there's some compensation and they can still remain strong in pvp. Is fire good too on 1v1s or 2v2s? My main is a boomie, which sucks for 1's and 2's real bad, might as well go resto if i want to live... Was really hoping my mage would be my new "pvp main". Should I just give up? QQ

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnmean View Post
    If you don't use FoF or BF procs generated during AT you loose them on live currently....Why do you think Icicle stack should treated any differently??
    On Live, you can however there is a huge difference, FoF or BF procs generated during AT you can blow as soon as they generate. Meaning if I am really lucky and procs are a flying, I will lose a FoF or a BF proc at the end of Alter Time.

    Whereas with Icicles, you hit Alter Time, you are not going to have the "dump" finish because every new Icicle you create is going to add to the dump until the bucket is empty. Your Water Elemental alone will add ~3 Icicles to the dump during a 6 second Alter Time window. This means quite frequently AT is going to rewind to your 5 stack and toss 5 Icicles away without the player ever having an opportunity to use them. This means almost all that damage they shifted to Icicles to smooth out our burst will be lost during AT.

  6. #266
    Rogue style combo points and finisher playstyle.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Omg, can't believe this is happening again. I just freaking level'd my frost mage alt to 90 to have some pvp funsies and its getting nerfed...
    Same happened with my monk, I got to play my healer monk 1 week before the were nerfed to the ground...
    All I get is "omg I rerolled twice to flavour of the month classes and they got nerfed just as I got there". Flavour of the month. THE MONTH. This is why you play what you like, not what's momentarily OP. Spend your time getting pro at what you like to play, not levelling up countless classes as the roulette wheel of OP continues to spin...

  8. #268
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    So I finally got around to testing. I'd anticipate a slight buff to mastery. Frostburn's about 19% of my damage, icicles is 13.5%. 1.75-2%/point seems realistic.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    So I finally got around to testing. I'd anticipate a slight buff to mastery. Frostburn's about 19% of my damage, icicles is 13.5%. 1.75-2%/point seems realistic.
    3% if they want frost to beat fire for once.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    3% if they want frost to beat fire for once.
    Even with my love to frost, it shouldnt beat fire. In perfect world it should be ON PAR with fire, however I believe it will never happen, due to very different scaling of two specs (I even dont talk about arcane). Also Blizzard concerns about pvp so much - I dont believe Frost will be viable until 6.0.
    P.S. forced to play Fire I dislike :\

  11. #271
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    to evalute this mastery in PVE, training dummies are irrelevant. We need to take into consideration, movement and adds. In those cases this mastery is not 13% of our damage,it's more like 3-5%. IL ( and furthermore glyphed IL) need to be an icicle generator.

  12. #272
    Originally Posted by Lore
    Overall, we like the core concept of Icicles, and are refining things at this point. The next (or perhaps one after that) PTR build will include several revisions. The Frostbolt debuff is now “baked in” (meaning the debuff no longer increases damage taken, but the spells it modified now do more baseline damage), and Waterbolt no longer generates Icicles (with Mastery now increasing Waterbolt’s damage directly). We’re also speeding up the rate at which Icicles launch when triggered by Ice Lance, as well as a few other tweaks.

    So if am reading that right.. no longer frostbolt ramp up.. though still not sold on the mastery, they need to buff it.. I thinks

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Originally Posted by Lore
    Overall, we like the core concept of Icicles, and are refining things at this point. The next (or perhaps one after that) PTR build will include several revisions. The Frostbolt debuff is now “baked in” (meaning the debuff no longer increases damage taken, but the spells it modified now do more baseline damage), and Waterbolt no longer generates Icicles (with Mastery now increasing Waterbolt’s damage directly). We’re also speeding up the rate at which Icicles launch when triggered by Ice Lance, as well as a few other tweaks.

    So if am reading that right.. no longer frostbolt ramp up.. though still not sold on the mastery, they need to buff it.. I thinks
    buffing the baseline damage of the spells passively buffs the mastery.

    too much buffing and we start scaling too well, like fire.

  14. #274

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    too much buffing and we start scaling too well, like fire.
    Yes, please

  15. #275
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    buffing the baseline damage of the spells passively buffs the mastery.

    too much buffing and we start scaling too well, like fire.
    We aren't remotely there yet to say that. Let's see how the new PTR performs before we say "it's too much". Right now we are (in general saying), this is possible, tweaks are needed. Sounds like they are listening. Faster launch, remove waterbolt procing Icicles, and such.

    Bring on the new build!
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  16. #276
    Mechagnome Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Originally Posted by Lore
    Overall, we like the core concept of Icicles, and are refining things at this point. The next (or perhaps one after that) PTR build will include several revisions. The Frostbolt debuff is now “baked in” (meaning the debuff no longer increases damage taken, but the spells it modified now do more baseline damage), and Waterbolt no longer generates Icicles (with Mastery now increasing Waterbolt’s damage directly). We’re also speeding up the rate at which Icicles launch when triggered by Ice Lance, as well as a few other tweaks.

    So if am reading that right.. no longer frostbolt ramp up.. though still not sold on the mastery, they need to buff it.. I thinks
    Well look at the bright side, no more "weak" icicles from wallybolts. Also if the "debuff" from FB is to be "baked in", wouldn't that make it easier for Frost to tackle add fights? No more ramp-up of building a debuff on a target only to switch and rebuild up the debuff.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Quote Originally Posted by Argussonn
    Yes, please
    Except Blizzard has gone on record that Fire scales too well at higher ilvls and direct nerfs would cripple fire mages at lower ilvls. Is that what you would want for frost as well?

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    All I get is "omg I rerolled twice to flavour of the month classes and they got nerfed just as I got there". Flavour of the month. THE MONTH. This is why you play what you like, not what's momentarily OP. Spend your time getting pro at what you like to play, not levelling up countless classes as the roulette wheel of OP continues to spin...
    Nah, I just jumped too late into those toons . Monk healing was pretty good for the entire 5.1 patch... Still having lots of fun with my frost mage, not looking forward to the new mastery on 5.4, too bad i level'd him last (of my 85's). And yeah, I still play my boomie on heroic raiding and have fun doing it, alts are for shits and giggles on weekends. /stoprant /stopofftopic

  18. #278
    Dreadlord
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    I don´t want to devolve into a froum QQ troll, but I´m still very sceptical about this changes (including the upcoming). Frostbolt is a hardcast single target spell which is good - if you cast a lot on single targets, but by just looking on all the SoO fights, there will be much more Nether Tempest and Living Bomb involved in SoO than in ToT. They will balance frost with a lot of frostbolt and ffb usage in mind and not with all the add and council fights.

    Frostbolt debuff gone is a pretty nice step!

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    buffing the baseline damage of the spells passively buffs the mastery.
    Would be true, but as they said they buffed baseline cause they removed frostbolt ramp up, so there ain't really any buffs to any spells from this change. Just removing ramp up from frostbolt and removing weak icicles.

  20. #280
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    buffing the baseline damage of the spells passively buffs the mastery.

    too much buffing and we start scaling too well, like fire.
    Except they aren't passively buffing anything, just Wellybolt and Ice Lance always has +15% instead of on FB stacks only, but once you cast FB 3 times, there's literally 0 change. This just improves the QoL for switching targets often, but does next to NOTHING for fights like Jin'Rohk (although, this change isn't coming til 5.4, so that specific example is fairly irrelevant, but relevant for the time).

    Frost will not scale like Fire for a long time unless they make extremely drastic changes. Also, has anyone ever noticed that Exponential Scalers and DoT users are typically the specs that scale out of control at times?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Would be true, but as they said they buffed baseline cause they removed frostbolt ramp up, so there ain't really any buffs to any spells from this change. Just removing ramp up from frostbolt and removing weak icicles.
    Frostbolt actually lost its ramp-up in the current build. It's Ice Lance and Waterbolt that are on ramp-up.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

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