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  1. #281
    Hope they bake in Pyromaniac at some point for Fire too, never liked the hindrance of Frostboltx3 or Pyromaniac for fast target switching.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post

    Frostbolt actually lost its ramp-up in the current build. It's Ice Lance and Waterbolt that are on ramp-up.
    What would you call it then? Oh well it's still getting removed totally so.. I called it frostbolt ramp-up, cause it was still frostbolt we spammed for it.

  3. #283
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Hope they bake in Pyromaniac at some point for Fire too, never liked the hindrance of Frostboltx3 or Pyromaniac for fast target switching.
    Then they need to come up with a new forced mechanic penalty to keep up your Bomb as Fire.

    Also, Pyromaniac is nowhere near as bad as FB. FB = 3, immobile, casts. Pyro = An instant-cast DoT you should be applying to a new target instantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    What would you call it then? Oh well it's still getting removed totally so.. I called it frostbolt ramp-up, cause it was still frostbolt we spammed for it.
    Oh I know :P

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Originally Posted by Lore
    Overall, we like the core concept of Icicles, and are refining things at this point. The next (or perhaps one after that) PTR build will include several revisions. The Frostbolt debuff is now “baked in” (meaning the debuff no longer increases damage taken, but the spells it modified now do more baseline damage), and Waterbolt no longer generates Icicles (with Mastery now increasing Waterbolt’s damage directly). We’re also speeding up the rate at which Icicles launch when triggered by Ice Lance, as well as a few other tweaks.

    So if am reading that right.. no longer frostbolt ramp up.. though still not sold on the mastery, they need to buff it.. I thinks
    Finally. Though still doesnt solve scaling problems ...

  5. #285
    Thats a good start, but mastery is either have to be buffed to 3% per point or frostbolt should scale better with haste. Glyph is a nice and very simple idea, and probably wont hurt anyone in PVP as casting something for 3 seconds or so would be very dangerous (and it wont be hitting harder than CB without frostburn anyway)

  6. #286
    Latest patch notes state the Mastery base is increased from 12 to 14%, bumped storage time from 15 seconds to 30 seconds on Icicles, increases WE WB damage by 14% (WE WB no longer generates icicles).

    They bumped Ice Lance damage by another 15% to offset frost bolt stack removal.

    Ice Floes gained another cast while moving.

    Overall very good steps, have to hop on PTR and test it out, see where damage is at.

    Edit - they also changed Glyph of Ice Lance to Spitting Ice - and that one will IL and Icicle to one additional target for 50% damage
    Last edited by gallamann; 2013-07-24 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #287
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Correct. Ice Floes has been rebuilt slightly. It now has 3 charges, affects 1 spell per charge, and has a 20 second recharge time. This change unfortunately didn't make it into the PTR notes (but we're getting those fixed ASAP).

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...01488?page=1#6
    Really liking the latest changes. Definitely a step into the right direction.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    Latest patch notes state the Mastery base is increased from 12 to 14%, bumped storage time from 15 seconds to 30 seconds on Icicles, increases WE WB damage by 14% (WE WB no longer generates icicles).

    They bumped Ice Lance damage by another 15% to offset frost bolt stack removal.

    Ice Floes gained another cast while moving.

    Overall very good steps, have to hop on PTR and test it out, see where damage is at.

    Edit - they also changed Glyph of Ice Lance to Spitting Ice - and that one will IL and Icicle to one additional target for 50% damage
    Also they uped the mastery to 1.75% pet point

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Crtarel View Post
    Also they uped the mastery to 1.75% pet point
    Still not sold on the mastery scaling better than atm, but at least frost should do as much damage as it did before the patch and they removed the ramp-up, so if they keep tuning, we might need to raid frost after the fire nerfs..

  10. #290
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacce View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Correct. Ice Floes has been rebuilt slightly. It now has 3 charges, affects 1 spell per charge, and has a 20 second recharge time. This change unfortunately didn't make it into the PTR notes (but we're getting those fixed ASAP).

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...01488?page=1#6
    Really liking the latest changes. Definitely a step into the right direction.
    It'd be better if it was passive :\

    Quote Originally Posted by Crtarel View Post
    Also they uped the mastery to 1.75% pet point
    Probs needs to be more, but I'm personally interested in testing out Splitting Ice with Icicles


    Also, scaling is still an issue. They need to make Icicles match Haste or even surpass it to band-aid the scaling problem until 6.0, and I'd personally be fine if that was the case.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  11. #291
    There's something wrong with the mastery on the PTR. I did a 3 minute DPS test and the Icicle damage seems way too low in proportion to Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt damage. The test was done in an isolated area in Pandaria on a Turnip target, so there was it was pure single target damage. I have 27.74% mastery according to the character panel. Here's the damage spread:

    Frostbolt 8.30M (29.4%)
    Ice Lance 5.30M (18.8%)
    Nether Tempest 4.27M (15.1%)
    Frostfire Bolt 3.23M (11.4%)
    Icicle 2.22M (7.9%)
    Water Elemental: Waterbolt 4.04M (14.3%)
    Frozen Orb 838.7K (3.0%)

    So 27.74% * (8.3M + 3.23M) = 3.2M. Where did 1M damage go?

    The damage with just base mastery (none from gear) would have been:

    Waterbolt 4.04 / 1.2774 * 1.14 = 3.16M
    Icicles = 14% * (8.3M + 3.23M) = 1.61M
    Total with zero mastery = 8.3 + 5.3 + 4.27 + 3.23 + 1.51 + 3.16 + 0.84 = 26.61

    Expected total with 4711 mastery rating = 8.3 + 5.3 + 4.27 + 3.23 + 3.2 + 4.04 + 0.84 = 29.18
    Relative increase = 9.7%

    Actual damage done = 8.3 + 5.3 + 4.27 + 3.23 + 2.22 + 4.04 + 0.84 = 28.2
    Relative increase = 6%

    If it had produced the right amount of Icicle damage, I would need about 500 mastery for a further 1% DPS increase. With the lower than expected Icicle damage, I would need nearly 800 mastery to gain 1% DPS. 500 rating for 1% more damage would actually probably be competitive with haste (probably better than haste).

    It's possible there's some kind of icicle munching happening.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Boomop on the US PTR forum may have found the issue: apparently critical strikes generate Icicles with the same damage as non-crits, which means half the Icicle damage from BF-FFB is lost and about 28% of Frostbolt Icicle damage is lost. This explains why I only got 2.22M damage (the math fits).

    So, no munching, but a different type of bug that should be easy to fix.

    Mastery scaling seems reasonable once they fix the bug, but FFB damage seems underwhelming compared to live. I may have time to do a bit more math tomorrow to see where we stand right now.
    Last edited by Tiga; 2013-07-24 at 10:39 PM.

  12. #292
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiga View Post
    Boomop on the US PTR forum may have found the issue: apparently critical strikes generate Icicles with the same damage as non-crits, which means half the Icicle damage from BF-FFB is lost and about 28% of Frostbolt Icicle damage is lost. This explains why I only got 2.22M damage (the math fits).
    I'll make sure this gets seen above anything else.

  13. #293
    Dreadlord
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    Ah nice, tested a lot, but the issue is already known. Hope they fix it immediately

  14. #294
    Mechagnome Zatetic's Avatar
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    anyone tried the latest changes? huge ice lance buff and the split ice glyph seems positive. icicles doing cleave damage.

  15. #295

    Live to PTR Damage Conversion

    Instead of making another spreadsheet, I wrote some formulas using Lua to analyze how the changes affect total damage in a raid encounter. It's possible to take the damage per spell numbers on World of Logs, plug in your mastery value from the web armory and it will tell you how much damage you would have done on the PTR, assuming you didn't reforge anything or change armors and that the Icicle mastery bug (no bonus from crits) bug is fixed.

    The math is only accurate for pure single target because there's no way to calculate the effect of Icicle cleaving without knowing if there's a potential secondary target or not. I'm also assuming that there's always a 3-stack frostbolt debuff on the target, which of course isn't true.

    Here's the output using the mastery I have now in the armory and some recent 25 man encounters:

    Waterbolt ratio = 104.7%
    Frostbolt ratio = 118.7%
    Frostfire bolt ratio = 96.3%
    Ice lance ratio = 91.4%

    Encounter: Primordius
    Total live: 39.613M
    Total PTR: 40.922M
    PTR vs. live ratio: 103.3%

    Encounter: Jin'rokh
    Total live: 64.238M
    Total PTR: 66.566M
    PTR vs. live ratio: 103.6%

    Encounter: Full log
    Total live: 1055.831M
    Total PTR: 1084.698M
    PTR vs. live ratio: 102.7%

    What it shows is that we are losing some damage on Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt, but gaining slightly more on water elemental damage and frostbolt mastery. Overall, my damage would be more than 3% higher than on live.

    The full log isn't accurate because I don't account for Icicle cleaving and there's quite a bit o f AOE and multitarget in there. If I factored that in there, I think it would also show a greater than 3% increase in damage, but there's no way to do that accurately.

    The next step is to figure out if mastery is more valuable than haste with my gear. If it is, then there's a further DPS increase to be had by reforging & gemming differently and by using mage armor.

    BTW, if you replace the 14 representing icicles with 12 for the previous PTR incarnation, you get a prediction of damage output with that scaling and the live vs. PTR totals end up being almost identical.

    Here's a link to the Lua file:

    http://wow.poista.net/theorycraft/PTR_5.4_analysis.lua

    I used a command line Lua interpreter, but you can probably use the one built into WoW, if you download Hix LuaPad (type /pad to get the window up, hit ESC to hide it).

    It shows in detail how each spell was converted from 5.3 values to 5.4 and why.

  16. #296
    Not sure if the cleave change is sufficient. Typically we hit Frozen Orb and spam Ice Lances - but that will do 10-15% less damage now. Icicle cleave requires interleaving FB/FFB in between lances.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Not sure if the cleave change is sufficient. Typically we hit Frozen Orb and spam Ice Lances - but that will do 10-15% less damage now. Icicle cleave requires interleaving FB/FFB in between lances.
    Probably this.

    Ice lance needs to generate icicles.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurkers View Post
    Probably this.

    Ice lance needs to generate icicles.
    Or Frozen Orb could generate them, since that's about the only time you Ice Lance spam.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Or Frozen Orb could generate them, since that's about the only time you Ice Lance spam.
    Yeah I think frozen orb should generate icicles. Good idea. Someone pass that idea to blizz ploxoxox.

  20. #300
    I think some of you overestimate the cleave from Frozen Orb. Its a 1min cd and u have to time it well with adds.
    Looking back to ToT u only have one fight where u could cleave all the time(council) and this fight was more dominatet by Nethertempest then icelancespam due to Frozen Orb.
    The actual mastery shifts the dmg from Icelance to Frostbolt. With the icicles cleaving you shift the dmg from the 10 second window of FrozenOrb to the 50 sec without them.
    If the numbers are right i dont see a downside.

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