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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    DEPT for mini-bolt is just a non-sense. I think they are calculate for each bolt instead of being considered as one spell.
    That's what I thought as well, but it doesn't match the numbers. It seems they use (damage of parent spell*0.4)/0.25s
    Now I wonder if it actually simulates it to fire every 0.25s, because that would be wrong since it gives you extra time (mini-Frostbolt is still 1.3s and not 0.75) and damage during IV (if it fires 4 per second instead of 3 for FFB and IL).

  2. #422
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light4 View Post
    That's what I thought as well, but it doesn't match the numbers. It seems they use (damage of parent spell*0.4)/0.25s
    Now I wonder if it actually simulates it to fire every 0.25s, because that would be wrong since it gives you extra time (mini-Frostbolt is still 1.3s and not 0.75) and damage during IV (if it fires 4 per second instead of 3 for FFB and IL).
    The time between each bolt is 0.25s so it confirm the bug.
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  3. #423
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    Looking closer the differents sims results, I noticed that even if scale factors say mastery> hast > crit , the gear used is gemmed and reforged to hast > mastery > crit.
    So to me, we must read thoses scale factors like this : As soon as you ar near 16000 hast ( it's always 16009 hast in any sims), then you must consider mastery > hast > crit for single fight and mastery > crit >= hast with cleave fight.
    It's logical.
    Hast is sill king but passed 16000 hast ( a little less in fact), only mage bombs, non hasted frostbolt, water bolt and invocation benefit from it.
    Frostburn applied on capped crit spells (BF FFB, FOF-IL) and waterbolt, where Icicile applies on only one capped crit spell ( BF FFB). So crit value improved near and passed 28% crit ( excluding int proc).
    So past our capped stats we must consider mastery like before. But icicle has a better synergy with crit and hast in stationnary periods.

  4. #424
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    The answers is 42
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  5. #425
    Haste getting capped this badly isn't good news. If you want to find some "good news", then I suppose if you run a 10 man that doesn't always have all the buffs, you can balance your gear so that you use mage armor when you have all raid buffs and you use frost armor when there's no spell haste aura in the raid. Looking at the values though, even though haste is valued lower than mastery, it's almost too close to call. Just remember that it's not because mastery is suddenly a whole lot better than it was thanks to Icicles - it's because we're approaching the gear level where haste becomes almost as bad as crit is in heroic ToT gear.

    I was really hoping to see some kind of fix for patch 5.4 to extend the potency of haste until the end of the expansion. Given Blizzard's past history, I guess it may be too much to hope for.

  6. #426
    I have a question about how Icicles works.
    It stacks up to 5. Ice Lance launch them 1 at time.
    But if you have 5 and don't cast Ice Lance will it start to launch after a 6th one?
    Will we have to do Ice Lance even without FoF to launch them?

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by jangkun View Post
    I have a question about how Icicles works.
    It stacks up to 5. Ice Lance launch them 1 at time.
    But if you have 5 and don't cast Ice Lance will it start to launch after a 6th one?
    Will we have to do Ice Lance even without FoF to launch them?
    This has been answered repeatedly in the thread I'd wish you'd just read it >_>
    If you have 5 Icicles and generate an additional Icicle then you will fire your oldest Icicle automatically, you will never need to cast a non FoF Ice Lance except maybe at the very very end of a fight for a teeny weeny damage boost if the boss would otherwise die without them landing

  8. #428
    How is icicles playing out atm ?
    I don't like the current build for icicles tbh..
    We can't control our burst anymore..for example, whenever we get a FoF proc, our icicles will get fired, even if we don't want them to..
    They should implement sort of the following ideas I came up with to put frost in a congenial state..
    1)Bring back DF damage for frost.. don't necessarily bring back the HEAVY burst dmg, but normal dmg like say, bit less than frostbolt.
    Using deep freeze would cause any existing icicles to begin launching at the target.. DF's primary damage increase ~20% per icicle
    OR
    2) BUFF BF FFB damage.. make it go sky high like a 4-charges ABarrage or HS Pyro, and then cause, say , based on our mastery, a percentage of it, say 40% for a mastery-heavy build, to be distributed equally among each icicle -8% per icicle..In this case, using DF launches all icicles at the target, but does not deal any dmg itslf..

    With both ideas, icicles are capped at 5 and using frostbolt DOES NOT cause an icicle to launch at the target to make place for a new one..
    Instead, FB and FFB both contribute dmg to the existing icicles equally..
    This would make our dmg more controlled.
    What do y'all think?

  9. #429
    Have you ever considered that reducing burst is exactly what Blizzard is trying to do?

  10. #430
    Dreadlord
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    Yeah, but only in PvP huth - this is why I think this is a PvP driven change. They don´t had any PvE in mind.
    Gettin rid of damage dealing DF was the most weird thing they have ever done. "It break game mechanics" they used to say. Well, now we have 2 - 3 million ABr crits, 20 million combuston, but DF is game breaking. Right...

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Yeah, but only in PvP huth - this is why I think this is a PvP driven change. They don´t had any PvE in mind.
    Gettin rid of damage dealing DF was the most weird thing they have ever done. "It break game mechanics" they used to say. Well, now we have 2 - 3 million ABr crits, 20 million combuston, but DF is game breaking. Right...
    It's not that it breaks anything, it was a crutch from the very beginning. They never wanted DF to behave completely differently in PvE, they just couldn't think of any better way to do things back then.
    There was nothing weird about it at all.

  12. #432
    Dreadlord
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    Do you remember storm shield on rohash? I just remember the blue post regarding deep freeze and mechanics like storm shield. They called it game breaking. Maybe they didn´t wanted (can´t look in their heads) Deep Freeze, but together with cold snap it was a pretty fun and much appreciated spell/mechanic. Scrapping that was a weird move. If Deep Freeze would still deal damage, we wouldn´t have clunky icicles
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-04 at 06:56 PM.

  13. #433
    Dig deeper. They never liked the mechanic in the first place. It was just an easy way of making Frost do more damage in PvE without buffing PvP, but it was never more than a bandaid.

    Sure, it was fun to do massive burst, but it just created problems for Blizzard that way. Scrapping a bandaid that was never intended as a long term solution and caused problems really shouldn't surprise anybody.

  14. #434
    Dreadlord
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    Hm, I would consider it bain-aid if its implemented during an expansion, but DP was implemented even before cataclysm. There where no real problems, deep freeze still wouldn´t be the strongest spell in game. They could adjust the spec easily and don´t have to implement such a weird icicle mechanic. Oh and they would serve what the players want and have fun with.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Hm, I would consider it bain-aid if its implemented during an expansion, but DP was implemented even before cataclysm. There where no real problems, deep freeze still wouldn´t be the strongest spell in game. They could adjust the spec easily and don´t have to implement such a weird icicle mechanic. Oh and they would serve what the players want and have fun with.
    How do you know players want to play Frost?How Many? If anything it is the same kind of players who play something just to play it so they can whine it is behind or act as if it is competitive compared to Fire/Arcane even though numbers proved it wasn't months ago. Frost is the Pvp Spec, watch and see.

  16. #436
    Dreadlord
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    I already stated that I´m done with you. So please stop quoting me or similar. You don´t even get the things you quote, no one was talking about numbers of people who like or want to play frost or anything. Huth and me just had a frost related discussion.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-04 at 10:15 PM.

  17. #437
    There's nothing "clunky" about icicles, please stop using "clunky" to mean "I don't like it"
    Arcane Blast and Combustion aren't game breaking because they don't front-load all of their damage in one attack, and Combustion (which conceivably could) has a longer cooldown than Deep Freeze ever had even with it shortened.

    Yes, Deep Freeze was satisfying, but in no way would it solve all of our problems. It wouldn't even stop them from implementing Icicles.
    These were added so that they could easily adjust PvE damage without overtuning one of the reasons Frost used to be kings of PvP (bonus damage to frozen targets in the spec with most ability to freeze you)
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-08-04 at 11:19 PM.

  18. #438
    Imnick
    This was factored in the spec damage layout as all spells hit for nothing if the target is not frozen or not treated as such (procs)... If this is the reason, its not a sound one for me..
    nd Combustion aren't game breaking
    So if a fire mage can burst millions of dps in first minute of fight its balanced right? Cant say that i didnt like it (tried first time since ToT came out), but its not right in any sense of the word...

  19. #439
    Considering the rest of the Fire mage toolkit hits like a particularly soaked noodle, it's pretty much right.
    You can't examine one spell in a vacuum and say it's broken. Frost was broken in PvP because they had instant roots and were also more powerful against rooted targets. Damage on Deep Freeze was added so that they could reduce frost mage PvP damage while buffing it in PvE but they've stated again and again that they want to avoid spells with different effects in different environments whenever possible and the insane amount of damage loaded into that one spell, which could be buffed by damage taken effects on bosses and temporary procs, was not healthy for our rotation in a similar way that Combustion hurts Fire's other spells except even more so.

    Right now on the PTR Frostfire Bolt can be outdamaged by a Frostbolt Crit. If we added Deep Freeze back in, Frostbolt, FrostfireBolt and Ice Lance would all go down in damage. Is that what you want?

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Right now on the PTR Frostfire Bolt can be outdamaged by a Frostbolt Crit. If we added Deep Freeze back in, Frostbolt, FrostfireBolt and Ice Lance would all go down in damage. Is that what you want?
    Yes, because deep freeze was good gameplay, it gave you something you had to manage, as it currently stands frost is just hit what button lights up where deep freeze made players give FoF procs at least a little more thought, did you want to risk using your FoF procs and not having them up for when DF is off CD or have one saved and possibly overwritten so you could use it exactly on the CD, frost has been so entirely dumbed down this expansion with the removal of both deep freeze and boss freeze that many players (such as myself) who used to love and enjoy the spec in PVE, avoid it whenever is possible.

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