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  1. #441
    I don't want to disappoint you but Deep Freeze being reintroduced would actually literally also be "hit what button lights up" because holding onto one stack of Fingers of Frost at all times is trivial and provides you with the maximum DPS upgrade that adding another button that can only be triggered from a FoF stack every 30 seconds could add (provided you don't hold onto it until it falls off, preventing which is also trivial)


    Also... boss freeze? You've... not really ever been able to freeze bosses

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I don't want to disappoint you but Deep Freeze being reintroduced would actually literally also be "hit what button lights up" because holding onto one stack of Fingers of Frost at all times is trivial and provides you with the maximum DPS upgrade that adding another button that can only be triggered from a FoF stack every 30 seconds could add (provided you don't hold onto it until it falls off, preventing which is also trivial)


    Also... boss freeze? You've... not really ever been able to freeze bosses
    But that wouldn't be the case because you get double FoF procs at times, you would only hold onto FoF if DF was close to coming off of CD. And I don't know if you played frost last expansion or at the very start of this one but, yes you used to be able to cast freeze on bosses for FoF procs, that was a very recent change that made it so you couldn't

  3. #443
    The only time you can get double FoF procs is under Frozen Orb (You don't bank one then, I didn't think I'd need to explain that)and if you fire both Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt at the same time. You have 2% chance to get two procs at a time from this. Over the average fight right now you extremely rarely cast upwards of fifty FFBs, and also don't always pair them with Frostbolts anyway because you can get them while casting ice lance, or your bomb spells, or anything else you might be casting for whatever reason. This chance gets lower and lower the more targets they are because you spend less time casting frostbolt and more time repeatedly recasting bombs.

    But hey you theoretically lose one ice lance there per encounter if you are unlucky.

    ...but delaying your massive Deep Freeze for any reason other than "there's a damage increasing debuff on the boss in a couple of seconds" is a bigger DPS loss than maybe (but probably not) one ice lance, so you'd bank your single FoF charge at all times anyway.

    And also you can get a lot of procs during Blizzard.
    But you can't cast while channelling Blizzard.


    You used to be able to cast the spell freeze on bosses for procs true, for some reason I thought you meant "you were able to freeze bosses), but... why was that compelling gameplay again? I mean it was a nice bonus but... once again it was a spell you just cast every time it was off cooldown (and had to aim a reticule for).
    I wouldn't mind if it came back but its removal wasn't "dumbing down" anything because it wasn't an exciting gameplay element. It was just another thing you set up a timer for and hit mindlessly whenever you could (unless you had two stacks of FoF already but why would you).
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-08-05 at 01:19 AM.

  4. #444
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    Back in BTC, frost wasn't "hit what button lights up" at all. You always held a fof procs because fof served for, BF-FFB and DF also. The only time you didn't hold one is when you used pet freeze. You only used pet freeze when DF cooldown was off, or when you could get 2 FOF with one freeze. There was always ' microthinking" to maximise you dps. Of course hit what button lights ups worked but you loosed mass dps. Back then, playing Frost mage was easy, mastering it was not ( compared to arcane and fire).

    There was 4 arguments from blizzard for removing DF damage :
    -Like Pete said, DF damage was insane, like 2 or 3 IL. But Back then, 4 charge Arcane blast hit for 80% of a DF and it was ok. Nowadays 4 charge arcane barrage hit like 5 or 6 IL and it's ok.
    - It was complicated for newbie to know if target were freezable or not. So Big damage or Big CC. It's true that with freezable adds, we lost damage but, we could chain IL to compensate a little. We exchanged 1 Big GCD for 3 GCD + more control. I could live with that. Nowadays a freezable add, is also a target for full shattered mage bomb.
    -Blizzard didn't like abilities that worked differently in PVE and PVP. Hum You mean like mage bomb now? or the warrior abilitys ( don't remember the name), that stun in PVP and does damage in PVE ( hum it sound familiar).
    - DF wasn't cool because it didn't have a visual when it did damage. They can make an ignite like ability called icicles with new visuals in 2 month, but they never found a visual for DF in 2 years? Ok

    I think all is said.


    Sombre
    Last edited by Sombrelune; 2013-08-05 at 08:32 AM.

  5. #445
    Dreadlord
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    Yes, I think Sombrelune said it all, a good conclusion!
    Just one thing to Imnick: Yes I don´t like Icicles, but in addition they are clunky as hell. Single Target tank and spank you really could fire and forget, but if there is movement, target switch, cleave etc. involved, they feel clunky.
    I still wish they would bring back kind of cataclysm style with DF, FoF BF FFB and gaining freeze on demand with pet freeze or similar

  6. #446
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I will add some of my one :
    • keeping 1 FoF charge will be our gameplay in T16 because of the 2p. We want the +20% damage on FoF-IL or BF-FFB
    • DF's spell power factor was 11/12 where IL was 4 or 5. Actually, FoF-IL damage for 8 to 10 times our spell power. We can easily conceive a 1M damage spell every 30s.
    • Deep Freeze was damaging only in PVE. Actually, all our bomb do less damage against player.
    • Damage can be keep in line easily by Blizzard (this is what they do in 4.0.6).

    I like the idea to make it release Icicle.
    Increasing damage by icicle launched could help reducing the front load burst, it add a ramp-up mechanics.
    It leave place to add icicle on IL so it could help a lot on cleave/AOE and movement.

    BF-FFB could have been like this if it was on short CD instead of tied to bomb proc. And it strike like a trunk, not a noodle.

    my design idea for 6.0
    filer spell: frostbolt (stack)
    proc : Ice Lance (stack)
    big damage on short cooldown : BF-FFB. 25s base CD reduced by haste. (release)
    burst AOE spell : Frozen orb (proc FoF + 1)
    FOF generation : Water Elemental's spell. (Water Jet like & Freeze).

    AOE filler: Blizzard (stack)
    AOE on CD: Cone of Cold (add icc damage)

    No more bomb than result in choice by number.
    Haste is still high with BF cooldown on haste (like actually). Mastery is still high. mastery is useful in movement/cleave and AOE.
    The answers is 42
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  7. #447
    And this would again result in an:
    Cast Filler until X blinks.
    Press X.
    Repeat.

    Holding single FoFs should be gameplay right now. If u have an single FoF and now procs u should hold it. If u get a second FoF or a trinketproc or it runs out of time then u hit the single one.

    But all in all that doesn't matter. With or without DF: U set up an Weakaura/etc-Addon to display u the right time to hit IL and u are fine. No thinking. No Brainwork. Just press X if its blinking.

  8. #448
    Dreadlord
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    But not back in the days with DF, FoF BF FFB and Pet Freeze gaining 2 charges or do you mean Nathyiel`s suggestions? I like them though

  9. #449
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    And this would again result in an:
    Cast Filler until X blinks.
    Press X.
    Repeat.

    Holding single FoFs should be gameplay right now. If u have an single FoF and now procs u should hold it. If u get a second FoF or a trinketproc or it runs out of time then u hit the single one.

    But all in all that doesn't matter. With or without DF: U set up an Weakaura/etc-Addon to display u the right time to hit IL and u are fine. No thinking. No Brainwork. Just press X if its blinking.
    Like Ghostcrawler say in a tweet sometime ago, every things can be reduce to press X, and if it proc then press Y.
    If you keep it like this, you could try Ovale (or an equivalent addon) that tell you your next spell to cast ...

    The idea is to have something the feel good to play. Some spec have a very rotational gameplay while other are very chaotic. Some have a ressource to monitor while other is more free.

    This is why icicle feel good : they are no UI element that can be used by addon. We don't no what value & duration have each icicle but we can control them in a certain extend. For analogy, it's like if we can't know Ignite damage.
    This blackbox idea is really great !!

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombrelune View Post
    -Blizzard didn't like abilities that worked differently in PVE and PVP. Hum You mean like mage bomb now? or the warrior abilitys ( don't remember the name), that stun in PVP and does damage in PVE ( hum it sound familiar).
    Incorrect. Bombs do less damage, but they still work the exact same way. Stormbolt does more damage against stun immunes, but it always does damage. They become more or less effective, but what they do doesn't change.

    DF only did damage to stun immunes. It suddenly did something completely different than it normally does.

    You made no argument for DF, either, as it wouldn't add anything to the rotation except an extra button to press every 30s. It doesn't require any thought beyond what you're already doing.

  11. #451
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    This is why icicle feel good : they are no UI element that can be used by addon.
    Well, not entirely true. You can easily pull combat log entries and make an addon that tracks their size and duration. It'd be a fair bit more accurate than ignite trackers, as you don't have to worry about the oddness of DoTs. It's simply mastery% of spell damage. Not entirely accurate for say, Horridon, where you could hit for 200% damage, but the icicle itself will hit for 200%, making it equal as long as used on the same target.

  12. #452
    @Pete: Yes speaking about Nathyiels suggestion.

    We can know iciles dmg. Just get the hit from the creationary spell and calculate the icicle. Like we get Ignite with an trackaddon.
    I dont see the great point in this icicles. I think most overvalue it sometimes. Its just a part of the dmg of an spell which hits x seconds later. U couldn't really use it.
    Ignite is used directly by combustion and as said in other threads this is not the best idea because it all depends on this one.
    If icicles would interact with a certain spell aka the more icicles u have/throw whatever its stronger i think its a bad behaviour.

    The mainproblem with your rotation is what i see: U dont let room for some things to really be challenging. A rotation should be divided in 2 parts: The basicrotation. This could be cast x, proc y, cast y. Its fine. So everybody would make <100% of the max dps.
    The second part is handling xyz: This is where u can see: Player A is good because he handles it nearly perfect. Player B is "bad" because he dont handle it well.
    Right now for me as Frost the Basicrotation is really simple as said. But that is ok. So lets look at part2. The polishing: I think in this category belongs:

    Bomb snapshooting.
    Holding BF/FoF/Procs for a nearly perfect AT.
    (Managing the lvl90s)

    The first one is not really the classic magething. Most hate it. So this could go.
    The second is difficult: On the one side AT is nice. On the other side AT as whole is really bad because it combines a good survival skill with a dmgincreasingtool. But overall i think if this stays it is not the biggest problem.
    The last one is tricky. I know most of u hate the talents. I personal liked Invo 5.0 as the best talent in this tier. As mage i feel as an static artillery. Im not the fast jumping assassin who runs around on the battlefield. I stand at maxrange and nuke the holy shit out of my target. So i dont like the idea of a pure movement class. I know its difficult if u look at current Encounterdesign. Therefor i would go back to 5.0 invo. This is for me a good example of a how u called it "Blackbox". U cant create a guide where u say: Invo every 40 seconds. The problem is: U have to look at DBM, look at the ground, at the raid etc. It lets room for people to be good or bad.
    It is not the best solution but i think it was better then the current because the current is a no brainer. (thats why i set managing the 90s in brackets).

    The other problem with your rotation against the current one: A rnd proc from a Dot is imo better than a steady cd of x seconds for an spell. The cd is predictable. The proc isn't.

  13. #453
    The other problem with DF doing damage is that our damage on stunnable targets was lower, because we were balanced around a damaging DF. Honestly, it kind of sucked. Bringing it back would hurt DPS on anything that isn't a raid boss.

    Also making DF an Ice Lance launcher wouldn't work - the cooldown is much too long.

    (FYI, this is Malon (ArcaneTactics on Twitter). Couldn't work our how to edit my sig to put that in.

  14. #454
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalybs View Post
    The other problem with DF doing damage is that our damage on stunnable targets was lower, because we were balanced around a damaging DF. Honestly, it kind of sucked. Bringing it back would hurt DPS on anything that isn't a raid boss.
    Agreed. People were crying about the loss of mastery powered frost bombs for CMs. DF returning would hurt us even further.

    Couldn't work our how to edit my sig to put that in.
    I believe you need 10 posts to edit a signature.

  15. #455
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    @Pete: Yes speaking about Nathyiels suggestion.

    The other problem with your rotation against the current one: A rnd proc from a Dot is imo better than a steady cd of x seconds for an spell. The cd is predictable. The proc isn't.
    I see your point.
    I mainly use Frost Bomb because BF can be predicted. it's really good with AT.

    I differ with you because I think adapting because of a predictable proc could be as challenging as reacting to a proc.
    I propose to make to make Bf a short cooldown ability because too much proc isn't very good too. But having haste reducing it duration can lead to interesting situation even and giving every haste buff an immediate burst feeling.

    If Blizzard keep with there rotation's simplification, AT should be changed/removed (like other "reset" spell). This is why I don't add another spell like DF or equivalent.

    And finally, having BF-FFB or FOF-BF-FFB isn't really so much important. The 2 options have good and bad point.
    The answers is 42
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  16. #456
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    At huth, So if DF did 1 damage + stun and Big Damage without stun it wouldbe like stormbolt? The mechanism is the same.
    DF was the best scaling spell we had. Scaling is our worse ennemy in frost mage. We can't launch DF every 30 sec without fof. Ok it's easy to hold 1 fof for it, but who said that Wow Pve was hard ?

    Back to the topic, icicles, I think that this mastery is too Single target oriented even with the splitting ice glyph. In a tweet GC said that he is not worried about SP, Moonkin, Affliction in Soo, because nearly all fight ( I exaggerate of course), have multidoting. So why he is not worried about changing Frostburn ( good synergy with cleave) into Icicles ( Bad Synergy with cleave). Did he understand that on garrosh, spoil of pandaria, protectors of the vals, klaxxi paragons.... Mage bomb is our priority, followed by IL . We have less time to build icicles. In those fights our mastery can be sum up in waterbolt and BF-FFB.
    IL need to be a icicles generator.
    You can have the best weapon available, but without ammo it's useless.
    The more targets we have, the less icicles is effective.

    I would'nt care if we had the choice to ignore mastery. Some spec focus on haste or crit to the infinite and don't care about stacking it. Frost mage have very low crit softcap and hast softcap, so the only full stat available is mastery.
    Last edited by Sombrelune; 2013-08-05 at 12:44 PM.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    I propose to make to make Bf a short cooldown ability because too much proc isn't very good too. But having haste reducing it duration can lead to interesting situation even and giving every haste buff an immediate burst feeling.
    Overall i like the idea of haste reducing the CD. Im with you at the idea of BF being on CD. All i say is that we need some other complexity to balance that.
    But the mainproblem with a hasted CD i see is: The mechanic behind. Is the cd calculated once when the spell hits or does he really go faster when the proc occurs. The laster one would be better. Then u also loose something of the predictabilty because u couldn't say its in 25 seconds. U have to say: Its at least in 25 seconds. But it could be in 20 when my meta procs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sombrelune View Post
    said that Wow Pve was hard ?
    For 95% of the player the PvE is hard. If u are one of the 5% feel good but dont underrate the majority of the playerbase.

  18. #458
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    Apart from the top guilds that find strats, the majority of the playerbase base respect the already known strat. Difference is the time needed to accomplish this goal. I'm not a very good player, I'll never compete with kuni or others great mage, I play with 400-500 ms ( love Reunion Island connection). In general wow isn't tuned for great players. Otherwise Top guild would take months to clean content, and average guild would give up trying.
    If pve was'nt easy, a simple - 20% incoming damage, - 20% hp, wouldn't be sufficient to trivialize content.

    But easy doesn't mean free. It's time consuming and the more you're teammate commit theirselves, the easier it is.

  19. #459
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @Tomathan: I'm not fan of over complexity.

    Back to Icicle, and more for Citizen, did someone try Icicle into scaled down instance (challenge, proving-ground, ...) ?
    How is it at low level ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I did my first test of Proving ground. It's fun and can be very useful for testing.

    The first thing I can see : after silver, NT is a must have. No other choice.
    Icicle feel weak: not really movement friendly. too much tied to cast. only good if the target are close.
    IL really need to generate them.
    The answers is 42
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  20. #460
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    Didn´t try any dungeons on PTR, but I`m with you here 100%. Movement and Icicles don´t synergize well, they feel weak und Ice Lance generating Icicles would help so much! Where there any words by the devs about Ice Lance and Icicles?

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